Massive New York Protest

[loki09789]

I think the point is that protesting motivated by antagonism instead of the desire to promote reform is destructive because it just prolongs factioning and tends to be 'anti-someone' instead of about the topic. We have seen it here on a much smaller scale. How many times have we pleaded for a "stay on the topic" style of discussion instead of the "you suck" arguments that accuse someone of a motive.

The idea isn't that the Republicans are America, but that protest should not be to cut someone else down (as the language generally does regardless of the issue or people) so much as raising awareness/education/counterpoint to issues.

For all the cries for civil behavior and decorum here, there seems to be a lot of permissiveness about civil disobedience for the 'real world.' What happens when one of these civil disturbers/protesters gets hurt? Who is at fault? Do we demonize the secret service or NYPD for doing there job? Do we blaim that "Damn Bush" for something that was instigated by a person who chose to flout the law? I would say it comes down to personal accountability ON ALL SIDES.

Call me an idealist, but I thought the idea of AMERICA was about "One Nation (under God), with liberty and justice for all", NOT a nation that spends more time hacking at people/groups to try and discredit them.

I'm sorry, but I read some of this stuff and fear that we are far from the National Unity of WWII (tempered with reality that there were criticisms and factions then too) that helped stop the Reich from spreading that could rally 'round the flag so to speak and have moved to a Nation of UNITS that spend more time complaining about what someone else has or does. Maybe the lack of this behavior at the Demo Convention was because the Republicans weren't stirring for publicity in the same way not the assumption that the lack of protesting means approval or support.

The argument you are making is that the Republican National Convention is America. Because a protestor wants to shut down the RNC, they must think America Sucks. That does not follow.

Additionally, to think that all protestors speak with the same voice and desire the same thing is, I think, false. I would like to see what Protest Groups you are referring to, and the calls that they have made for shutting down the convention.

I am not concluding, by the way, that you are 'on' any side. I'm curious why you think anyone has stated so. I do disagree with your premise and I think your thought processes are erroneous.

 

[MisterMike]

Hannity had some woman on who represented one of the "protest" groups. She could not commit to a "lawful" protest. He asked her several times, explicitly. He also mentioned several websites that gave instructions on how to help arrestees escape from the police and ways to conceil your identity and escape routes.

 

[loki09789]

No surprise MM, I read an article in Time a while back about "Prostester Schools" where groups could train in techniques and tactics on how to protest well. They learned everything from packing lists that included gas masks to the legal ramifications of such actions and how to negotiate the legal system.

Again, the irony and contradiction between the "Honorable Evolution of a Martial artist" and how we learn to act and do with Dignity and Peace and this talk of encouraging unlawful acts (even 'little ones' like trespassing, disturbing the peace....which could escalate to much worse when the passion of a mob takes over) is interesting to me.

Hannity had some woman on who represented one of the "protest" groups. She could not commit to a "lawful" protest. He asked her several times, explicitly. He also mentioned several websites that gave instructions on how to help arrestees escape from the police and ways to conceil your identity and escape routes.

 

[michaeledward]

Hannity had some woman on who represented one of the "protest" groups. She could not commit to a "lawful" protest. He asked her several times, explicitly. He also mentioned several websites that gave instructions on how to help arrestees escape from the police and ways to conceil your identity and escape routes.

And what do you think Hannity's producers were looking for when seeking a representative from a 'protest' group; Fair and Balanced ... yeah, that's the ticket. Good Grief.

 

[michaeledward]

No surprise MM, I read an article in Time a while back about "Prostester Schools" where groups could train in techniques and tactics on how to protest well.

Would that be this article?:

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101930419-161478,00.html

Camp For Crusaders
After 12 weeks of training in the ABCs of protest, antiabortion activists prepare to teach others what they have learned
By PAUL GRAY

No caps and gowns, no Pomp and Circumstance, but a graduation of sorts took place last week, casually celebrated at a local restaurant in the Florida city of Melbourne. After three months of work, 22 men and women, ranging in age from 16 to 67, became the nation's first formally trained class of abortion protesters. Following the meal, and an Easter weekend of demonstrations at nearby abortion clinics, the graduates began dispersing to their homes across the country, where they will teach the tactics they learned in Florida.

 

[TonyM.]

Apparently no one learned a thing from chicago in '68.

 

[Cryozombie]

Do you guys think, Honestly...

regardless of side...

When any of these groups hold their protests...

Does it help get their point across, or does it make them come off looking like a bunch of whackjobs?

For me personally, I think, for the most part, it makes them look like whackjobs, and it makes me wanna disagree with their POV, so I am not associated with a bunch of whackjobs.

Think about it for a sec... when is the last big Liberatarian Protest you've seen?

How about the last big "Meat Eaters" protest...

What about the last report of people having abortions blowing up churches?

Yeah...

 

[Cryozombie]

And what do you think Hannity's producers were looking for when seeking a representative from a 'protest' group; Fair and Balanced ...

No... because that doesnt get listerners. And no listeners means no sponsers, and no sponsers means no paychecks, and no paychecks means...

Well... you know where I am going with that.

 

[MisterMike]

And what do you think Hannity's producers were looking for when seeking a representative from a 'protest' group; Fair and Balanced ... yeah, that's the ticket. Good Grief.

True, some of the people they bring on makes it look like the Jerry Springer of talk shows, but it still fit the mold of my impression of "Bush Protesters".

 

[Makalakumu]

Again, the irony and contradiction between the "Honorable Evolution of a Martial artist" and how we learn to act and do with Dignity and Peace and this talk of encouraging unlawful acts (even 'little ones' like trespassing, disturbing the peace....which could escalate to much worse when the passion of a mob takes over) is interesting to me.

Just curious. Could you provide some kind of criteria a MAist should use before the decide to protest in this fashion? If an MAist refused to go to the bus in 1964 because he/she was black, was that a betrayal of these ideals of which you have indicated?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Do you guys think, Honestly...

regardless of side...

When any of these groups hold their protests...

Does it help get their point across, or does it make them come off looking like a bunch of whackjobs?

Civil rights protests in the 60's made a big difference. Perhaps the reason why they don't make a difference anymore is because protesters have been portrayed as whackjobs for so long since then.

 

[shesulsa]

Holy guacamole. Has anyone on this list besides me (and, most likely, michaeledward) actually ever attended a protest?

I have attended several peaceful protests and they were indeed peaceful.

There is comfort in numbers and when others are aware that someone else out there thinks like they do it can spur more action, which is really what the answer is, anyway. And it is a darn shame that there are those who are so zealous they rain on everyone else's parade by using illegal tactics, espousing guerilla-type motives and being just plain mean. It never gives either side a good name.

A word about conservative radio:

If one were to analyze the Hannity and Limbaugh style talk radio, one could parallel it to the propagandizing done by socialist leaders in the past. Inciting emotion (which is what these talk show hosts capitalize on) is a great motivator and brainwashing tool.

You're all smart people. Those of you who listen to these shows and take them to heart - ask yourselves - do you really need someone else to tell you what the news is really all about...or can you figure it out for yourself?

 

[MisterMike]

Good point. One thing I like about talk radio is that they go into what is not on the news as well.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ya know, it's funny. For all the silly rhetoric--well, silly because it's ridiculously untrue, not because it doesn't work to convince some folks--I don't seem to hear the left wing saying that they hate America, or that they want the President dead, or any such nonsense, all that much.

Where you really hear this sort of stuff is from the likes of Pat Robertson, Hannity, Ollie North, and all the rest of the right-wing whackjobs who are always screaming about the moral decline of America, how the country needs cleansing, how the Apocalypse is a-comin' soon, and all the rest.

And in them, it's particularly offensive--given the considerable wealth they've accumulated for saying such things.

What you hear the left saying, typically, is that they want Bush out of office, and they want America to live up to its ideals. Huh, fancy that.

As was pointed out previously, it's also odd that some conservatives don't seem to mind a little violent protest, as long as it's on their side--never seem to see 'em criticizing the militia loons, or the women's-clinic bombers.

But O Lord, let about a hundred thousand or so Americans show up in New York and demostrate peacefully, and the only topic of conversation is their possible violence.

Incidentally, I tend to agree with Technopunk in one respect--some of these guys really need to think about how stupid they look on TV, if they're going to work hard to get on TV and spread their message.

 

[Flatlander]

Good point. One thing I like about talk radio is that they go into what is not on the news as well.

We seem to do some of that here, as well.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Holy guacamole. Has anyone on this list besides me (and, most likely, michaeledward) actually ever attended a protest?

I have attended several peaceful protests and they were indeed peaceful.

Me too - well, one of large national notice. It was very impressive, and very inspiring. The majority of demonstrators anywhere do not want to come off as "nutjobs", but as people genuinely passionate about their cause.

 

[D_Brady]

We can agree that if the Democrats hold a convention in Boston, with virtually no protest and lots of local cooperation,

The protesters were no even close to the convention, no permits were issued
unless you agreed to be caged and penned up. As for local cooperation you didn't have a choice. I know I did security for the DNC and saw it first hand.

At least in New York they get there first Amendment right.

 

[Makalakumu]

We can agree that if the Democrats hold a convention in Boston, with virtually no protest and lots of local cooperation,

The protesters were no even close to the convention, no permits were issued
unless you agreed to be caged and penned up. As for local cooperation you didn't have a choice. I know I did security for the DNC and saw it first hand.

At least in New York they get there first Amendment right.

This is true. The DNC stole a chapter from President Bush's playbook and instituted the hated free speech zones. Many run of the mill democrats, myself included, found this highly hypocritical.

 

[rmcrobertson]

There is very little funnier than accusations against Kerry's party for being repressive.

But it's good to know that despite the extended coverage of the subject saying otherwise, the Mayor of NYC (oddly enough, a republican) and the GOP in no way restrained protest actions. Nope, didn't happen.

And it's good to know that the heroic defenders of the Bill of Rights such as John Ashcroft and the rest of the party of the Patriot Act had more than 100, 000 marchers rarin' to go, and we would have seen them if not for the Evil Democrats.

I guess we woulda heard all about it, if not for the Conspiracy of the Liberal Media, eh?

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

No surprise MM, I read an article in Time a while back about "Prostester Schools" where groups could train in techniques and tactics on how to protest well. They learned everything from packing lists that included gas masks to the legal ramifications of such actions and how to negotiate the legal system.

Interesting that you should bring this up.
I was talking to a woman not to long ago and her son makes his living as a professional protestor. They train him on what to do or say and then they fly him around the world for different causes.
He actually makes some good money too. After hearing that it made me wonder how many people are really protestors and how much is just smoke and mirrors made by someone with sufficient funds.

Chicago Green Dragon

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