Gays Lesbians Attack LDS L.A. Temple

[Ray]

As I said prior however, the LDS is being focused on as one of the primary targets, because the LDS has reportedly provided be it directly or indirectly, 70% of the funding for the anti equal rights side of this particular fight.

If the individual members of the church spent their money and provided 70% of the funding, then again, it is their right to do so. If they labored for it as individuals, then it is their right. And I'm not too sure that: if the church itself provided funding that it has violated any law.

To couch it in terms of "anti equal rights" is to slant it in such a way as politicians do (e.g pro-life, pro choice). Just call it what it is: same-sex marriage. If we examine issues and problems, then we need to do it honestly and to the point. Both and either sides trying to polish a turd is dishonest.

Because, other than "I don't like it" and "I disapprove of it" and "It grosses me out" I can't see any valid reasons.

When my youngest son said he was voting for Obama because "Obama's cool" I was concerned that he should have a better reason.

I shortly changed my opinion on his reasons for voting because it is his right to vote and his right to decide in anyway he chooses.

If some Californians voted because they "don't like it" or "disapprove of it" or are "grossed out" then they could decide on that basis. Even if I think more thought should be given to the decision, it's still the right of the voter to decide.

Oh, I don't count the "God doesn't like it" part. There are many gods out there. They don't all agree on the matter either.

Good for you, move to California and vote. You and I can talk all we want, but we don't have a standing in the issue. And we're probably not going to have much of an impact on the issue.

Besides: I don't have a problem that you believe same-sex marriage should be legal. I didn't vote in the election, and I didn't enter into the disucussion until people started dissin the Mormons. Heck, you can say you don't believe it's a true church. You can say our beliefs our odd, you can even say you don't like hanging out with us...you can't make people vote the way you think they should.

 

[MA-Caver]

Good for you, move to California and vote. You and I can talk all we want, but we don't have a standing in the issue. And we're probably not going to have much of an impact on the issue.

At least not until it comes to bill/issue in your respective states.

Besides: I don't have a problem that you believe same-sex marriage should be legal. I didn't vote in the election, and I didn't enter into the discussion until people started dissin the Mormons. Heck, you can say you don't believe it's a true church. You can say our beliefs our odd, you can even say you don't like hanging out with us...you can't make people vote the way you think they should.

Differences of beliefs is allowed I think... as long as they're done respectfully.

Couple of times this thread jumped the tracks of the main topic. Seems for the moment it's back on.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If you read what I've written over the years regarding voting, my views are quite strong. Make an educated decision and vote.

I have friends, relatives and clients on both sides of the issue, some who are directly effected, some who aren't.

I make no judgement call of the validity or invalidity of any faith, and consider them all the same.

Regarding Same-Sex marriage, I see it as nothing more than an extention of previous rights debates concerning womens rights, racial rights, and religious rights.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

talk about covering your bases.............

Ask me if any of them were my choice......

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Mental exercise: If I have the desire to have my dead mother baptized, then is that my right? If it upsets my one living brother, is it still my right? If I wish to perform a pagan rite, or a santeria rite, what's the big deal? It's something I did, not my mother, not my brother.

Now, If I start looking at my ancestors farther back, perhaps I'm jewish and I perform the proxy rite for my jewish ancestors, then even if some of my distant relatives are upset; it's still something I did--I didn't dig up any material from a dead relative, I haven't done anything except a little paperwork on the roles of the church and a very brief rite.

Put the way you did, no, I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as the relative being baptized is ok with it.

If they aren't, they can always speak up. Course, if they are dead, that might involve levitating the cat.......

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how 2 men being married in California effects a man and a woman who got married in Ohio.

But let us say that Adam and Steve do get married, and go on a tri-state buggering marathon, that crosses state lines, and involves farm animals, small children, and several large potatoes. They then hijack an F16, fly to Bolivia where they are gunned down in a fearful firefight with the entire Bolivian Army, and at the end a large Gerbil named Roger asks for asylum.

How does that change, invalidate, or otherwise effect your sacred vows spoken from the heart, blessed by your god, and witnessed in your temple by the faithful?

I can't see how it does.
Unless Roger was your pet.

 

[Ray]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how 2 men being married in California effects a man and a woman who got married in Ohio.

But let us say that Adam and Steve do get married, and go on a tri-state buggering marathon, that crosses state lines, and involves farm animals, small children, and several large potatoes. They then hijack an F16, fly to Bolivia where they are gunned down in a fearful firefight with the entire Bolivian Army, and at the end a large Gerbil named Roger asks for asylum.

How does that change, invalidate, or otherwise effect your sacred vows spoken from the heart, blessed by your god, and witnessed in your temple by the faithful?

I can't see how it does.
Unless Roger was your pet.

What makes you believe that others need to explain their decision-making process to you? What makes you think that your question could be the only thing to consider? When people ask questions like yours, they're not usuall really seeking to understand other points of view or other reasons, they're just trying to keep an arguement going.

The vote is over. Legal remedies may exist to reverse the results.

The characterizations I've seen of religous people is just as bad as the characterizations I've seen of gays, or any other group of people.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ray,
People get married for countless reasons. Love, Honor, Money, God, Safety, and so on.

My question is simple. How does who I marry effect you and who you marry?
Your faith is quite clear on it's reasons for defining marriage as male-female.
But there are gay mormons.
They can never marry within their faith.
If they should be able to, is something for Mormons to decide.

But I'm not talking about religious marriage, in any of my arguments.
Civil marriage.
And I see no reason why an American can't marry another consenting adult.



Oh, and concerning some of my characterizations, especially the comments of 'superstitions' and 'invisible man in the sky', let me let out some not so secret stuff here on my own path. It involves crystals, colors, spells, and a personalized panthion of gods and godesses. So, please don't perceive my comments as hammer critisisms. I see your god, Cavers God, and my God as the same, just that we perceive them and hear them a little differently. I see all of us humans as a little hard of hearing when it comes to what we refer to as God.

As to questions, I am a Seeker of Knowledge and Truth. If you prove me wrong, I am happy to be corrected. If you enlighten me, if you make me think, to reach outside my own box, I am delighted. You my friend, and a few others here, have done so, and while we may never agree, I thank you and them for the opportunity to learn and grow.

Even when my swearing scares my cat.

 

[Ray]

As to questions, I am a Seeker of Knowledge and Truth. If you prove me wrong, I am happy to be corrected. If you enlighten me, if you make me think, to reach outside my own box, I am delighted. You my friend, and a few others here, have done so, and while we may never agree, I thank you and them for the opportunity to learn and grow.

Bob - thank you for the opportunity to get to know you better and to exchange some thoughts and comments. I think you are entitled to your opinions and applaud you for having thought them out so well.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Found another news story, new information is starting to become harder to find as "new issues" drown them out.

Some interesting bits

(11-09) 20:02 PST -- Months before the first ads would run on Proposition 8, San Francisco Catholic Archbishop George Niederauer reached out to a group he knew well, Mormons.
Images
Months before the first ads would run on Proposition 8, S...Archbishop George Niederauer had made critical inroads into improving Catholic-Mormon relations while he was Bishop of Salt Lake City for 11 years. And now he asked them for help on Prop. 8, the ballot measure that sought to ban same-sex marriages in California.

The last Field Poll, conducted a week before the election, showed that weekly churchgoers increased their support in the final week from 72 percent to 84 percent. Catholic support increased from 44 percent to 64 percent - a jump that accounted for 6 percent of the total California electorate and equivalent to the state's entire African American population combined.

The shift in Catholics alone more than accounted for Prop. 8's 5 percent margin of victory.

Mormon church members undertook a perhaps unprecedented mobilization, contributing an estimated 40 percent of the individual donations made to the Yes on 8's $30 million-plus campaign. Yet the Salt Lake City church, which did not contribute to the campaign, sees its involvement in politics as unusual.

Bolding mine.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/10/MNU1140AQQ.DTL

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Proposition 8 contributions
http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/prop8/

87,464 contributions, pro and con.

 

[Twin Fist]

as you all know, i say let them, or anyone else that wants to lose thier mind, half thier stuff and most of thier sex life get married, i could care less.

That being said, these guys lost, they need to get over it. You dont see republicans protesting outside the obama's house in Chicago do ya?

 

[Blindside]

Proposition 8 contributions
http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/prop8/

87,464 contributions, pro and con.

Quick crunch of the numbers:

# of CA residents who donated to oppose Prop 8: 41335
# of total people who donated to oppose Prop 8: 52927
# CA residents/total opposers who donated: 79%

# CA residents who donated in support of Prop 8: 32180
# of total people who donated in support Prop 8: 34537
# CA residents/total supporters: 93%
and just for giggles: % of UT supporters who donated : 1.6%

I'm not exactly seeing a flood of out of state support on the side of the pro Prop 8, in fact, I would say exactly the opposite.

Lamont

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Quick crunch of the numbers:

# of CA residents who donated to oppose Prop 8: 41335
# of total people who donated to oppose Prop 8: 52927
# CA residents/total opposers who donated: 79%

# CA residents who donated in support of Prop 8: 32180
# of total people who donated in support Prop 8: 34537
# CA residents/total supporters: 93%
and just for giggles: % of UT supporters who donated : 1.6%

I'm not exactly seeing a flood of out of state support on the side of the pro Prop 8, in fact, I would say exactly the opposite.

Lamont

Me either.

Interesting, ne?

 

[MA-Caver]

It would be interesting to see just how many of those who donated to oppose were exactly LDS/Mormon...and what percentage were other faiths or whatnots but it's not likely that particular statistic will come out.

But I'd still like to know why is this particular line being ignored??

During the Proposition 8 rally, as I stood with my wife and friends waving Yes On 8 signs and waving to the passing rush hour traffic, I learned several things. I learned supporters of both Yes On 8 and No On 8 liked to honk their horns. I learned the way to tell the difference is the No On 8 supporters usually accompanied their horn honking with an obscene gesture or a string of obscenities. They also liked to swerve their cars toward the children on the curb.

Obscene gestures and words is one thing.... trying to even pretend to want to run down children is quite something else!:angry:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So, the great balance of contributions, speaking in numbers of contributors only, came from California, and not outside the state.

More data mining is needed to trace back and map the sources however, as well as tally up the amounts, to clear up the picture and minimize the "propaganda" from both sides, neither of whom has been completely honest in the whole mess.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It would be interesting to see just how many of those who donated to oppose were exactly LDS/Mormon...and what percentage were other faiths or whatnots but it's not likely that particular statistic will come out.

But I'd still like to know why is this particular line being ignored??

True, but if someone were to spend the time, it can be ferreted out, to an extent.

 

[Archangel M]

Do people really get "married out of love"? Is the love any less if you live together unmarried? I believe that marriage is a twofold issue. Its a public statement of commitment which can be achieved in any sort of ceremony and its a financial/legal issue in terms of insurance, inheritance, property rights and so on. In the former case its nobody's business but theirs, In the latter it is our business because it effects public policy which we all are a part of.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I don't need diety or state to seal my relationship with my girlfriend, but after 8 years I'd like to ensure that should something happen to one of us, that the other is protected. We aren't traditionally religious so will do a civil ceremony followed by a reception of our close friends and family. For that option to be available for all my friends, is what matters most to me.

 

[Archangel M]

I think the issue is probably going to ultimately be decided with some sort of "civil union" contract of some sort. However I think a side issue here is that the gay community wants to be considered "mainstream" and this is part of an effort to that end. Separate from the "love and marriage" issue.