Martial arts delusion and how it hurts women

[Brian R. VanCise]

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[Brian R. VanCise]

However, an abuse victim has to recognise they are being abused, many don't. Most of those looking for martial arts have come out of their relationship with their abuser.

Counselling is fine but can be very airy fairy, many counsellors talk from an academic experience not an abused one, those who have been abused and can counsel are better. Before all that I would like to see more safe places for abused women, there's no good persuading them to leave when they have nowhere to go and no way to support themselves.
What's the point of counselling when the victim can't leave the abuser?

Victim can always leave they have to figure out a way via counseling, taking control of their life, gaining confidence to do so, etc. Though we both know this is not easy in any way. Abuse counselors with experience can be very beneficial for someone going through this problem. We are in total agreement there. We are also totally in agreement for needing more safe places for abused women to go to.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Now, since the OP has asked us to move this more to delusion in the martial arts and we currently have a thread on domestic violence let's do that.

As hoshin1600 asked what delusions and false presumptions are out there in the martial arts?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Now, since the OP has asked us to move this more to delusion in the martial arts and we currently have a thread on domestic violence let's do that.

As hoshin1600 asked what delusions and false presumptions are out there in the martial arts?

Well, let's start with those who buy into the Hollywood Myth of what MA training really is. There are plenty, as can be seen by anything other than the most cursory reading of these forums.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No actually not at all. Threat indicators occur in domestic violence against women as well.

Just to piggy back on this. A woman my not recognize the threat indicators of the first attack but she'll definitely know all of them the second time around. The human body naturally reacts to any bad experiences that it has. This is a survival technique that helps use to avoid any other encounters. It's the same reason why going to the doctor when sick causes our body to naturally react differently than it does when we go to the dentist.

After that first attack her body will naturally remember the signs of danger.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm hugely frustrated by much of this. Domestic abuse as we are discussing on the thread about it, is not what most people perceive it to be and no woman who is undergoing domestic abuse is likely to be attending a martial arts class. The reasons are many not least the manipulation of the abusive partner and the fact she would most likely say she isn't abused, that it's her fault anyway for winding her partner up and it will be alright. This is why giving a list of signs of an abusive partner to non abused people is useless, as is the signs a man is going to hit you, if you are abused you know when the partner's going to hit before they've walked in the door but it's 'not their fault, you did something wrong'. You cannot teach any effective martial art to someone in that situation and expect them to be able to defend themselves. Only as a last desperate act most likely when there's a threat to children will an abused woman try to defend herself and then she probably won't prosecute if given a choice.
You can list warning signs etc but people just think 'oh it wouldn't happen to me' and simply do not see what is creeping up on them, it's insidious with the abused person taking on the blame of the situation. Often this is reinforced by what friends and family are left or work colleagues, 'oh he's so nice, I'm sure he didn't mean it' etc etc.

I think the point of the blog is lost.....it's not that martial arts are a delusional activity per se but it is delusional to think that martial arts training can take the place of psychological help and support along with strong laws and an understanding justice system which an abused woman needs to get out of an abusive relationship.

Totally agree with this. When I had to deal with people I knew who were being abused, not once did I suggest attack combinations and defenses or even a martial arts class. Most of my time was spent trying to get the person to "open their eyes." to what was being done to them.

It's like the saying " The first step to solving a problem is to first admit that you have a problem." Denial is a powerful force. It's not always bad, but when it is, it's a bigger monster than the problem at hand.

 

[Buka]

I'm a little late to this thread, still unpacking.

Do any of you guys teach/council female students on the aspects of life where you are, about men in general, and about relationships?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm a little late to this thread, still unpacking.

Do any of you guys teach/council female students on the aspects of life where you are, about men in general, and about relationships?

Not normally. As someone who has done some coaching ("life coaching") and a background in psychology, I am able to do some of that, but it's not something I do unless someone has a specific need. Mind you, all of my current students are married, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Different skills are needed.

Kayla Harrison is an example of exactly that. She was already a gifted Judoka when she was assaulted. If anyone could defend herself with martial arts, probably even as a small child, it would have been Kayla Harrison. If martial arts skills are supposed to apply to acquaintance rape, and she couldn’t apply them, then people with no athletic skill walking in to a random school a couple of days a week surely can’t. But that wasn’t the problem. Kayla’s skills were not the problem. Many women martial artists are raped every year in spite of their belts, training, and ability to put a foot directly through a man’s abdomen. Martial arts skills are the wrong tool for that situation. Totally and completely wrong."

no one can say Kayla is not one of the best MA practitioners. so it can not be said there was lack in quality of martial skills.
the problem is spending 90 % of your time on a skill that will only give you a 10% return on the investment. this is the delusion. that martial skill alone will win the day. when in fact in most cases it never even comes into play.

That is only a delusion if you start from the premise that MA training is intended for this kind of encounter. If you start from the premise that it is intended to handle physical violence through physical skill, and isn't intended to deal with psychological manipulation, then there's no delusion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now, since the OP has asked us to move this more to delusion in the martial arts and we currently have a thread on domestic violence let's do that.

As hoshin1600 asked what delusions and false presumptions are out there in the martial arts?

That at some point we become knife-proof. Or even punch-proof. Neither ever becomes true.

 

[crazydiamond]

My young daughter is in school with me. I get the part of the article that deal with the common sexual assault issues (friend, BF, family, teachers) as a separate, but major issue to address. and My wife and I can help her with this.

However I have seen boys my daughter age - act aggressively (not sexual they are too young) = pushing, shoving, hitting, holding. My goals now are to get her to develop some "metal" and not crumble passive way and just "take it". However she is a sweet little girl - so we keep training and working on the muscle memory. I am glad our school includes various MMA type work with her - but also trains in self defense drills and situations.

We know a young woman (17) with years of MA training who was grabbed by stranger in a garage and when she reacted violently due to her training - he fled - I assume to easier passive young girl targets who would crumble. I don't want my daughter to crumble in this specific type of assault or attack.

Also I am seeing more Girl and Girl fighting then I remember - usually drunken parties, but also on school grounds.

Sexual assault complex issue for females that I think requires a multifaceted approach- but the points of how many sexual assaults occur outside of stranger danger attacks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

That at some point we become knife-proof. Or even punch-proof. Neither ever becomes true.

I would like to think I am an unsafe environment for a punch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would like to think I am an unsafe environment for a punch.

I consider myself punch-resistant and knife-phobic.

 

[Juany118]

i would say yes you missed the point

"Assault by friends, boyfriends, husbands, co-workers, teachers, bosses, and relatives, the monumental majority of assaults inflicted on women, start with emotional manipulation. Controlling behavior. Envelope-pushing behavior. Boundary erosion. Manipulation. Creation of ambiguity."

your assumption of "the persons ability with their training" how is that going to protect a women from the manipulation and controlling behavior of her boyfriend?

That is indeed how they often start but even in these situations, when it turns to physical violence, their are clear threat indicators. Now the previous manipulation may hinder, even prevent, the victim was consciously recognizing the indicators but they are indeed there.

Martial arts also have a factor that I don't think the blog really recognizes the importance of. Experienced abusers are VERY good at reading people and they do not randomly pick targets. They tend to pick victims that lack confidence, self-esteem, those who seek outside validation etc. The way they often "hook" them is by, initially, is by providing the validation, making them think they are the center of the universe. Now all the other issues (right art, instructor etc) still exist BUT if you tick off those boxes the art and training it can provide the confidence a potential victim lacks. It is in effect a form of target hardening which can prevent the abusive relationship from progressing, or even starting, in many cases.

 

[Tez3]

My young daughter is in school with me. I get the part of the article that deal with the common sexual assault issues (friend, BF, family, teachers) as a separate, but major issue to address. and My wife and I can help her with this.

However I have seen boys my daughter age - act aggressively (not sexual they are too young) = pushing, shoving, hitting, holding. My goals now are to get her to develop some "metal" and not crumble passive way and just "take it". However she is a sweet little girl - so we keep training and working on the muscle memory. I am glad our school includes various MMA type work with her - but also trains in self defense drills and situations.

We know a young woman (17) with years of MA training who was grabbed by stranger in a garage and when she reacted violently due to her training - he fled - I assume to easier passive young girl targets who would crumble. I don't want my daughter to crumble in this specific type of assault or attack.

Also I am seeing more Girl and Girl fighting then I remember - usually drunken parties, but also on school grounds.

Sexual assault complex issue for females that I think requires a multifaceted approach- but the points of how many sexual assaults occur outside of stranger danger attacks.

That's all good but what if she meets a young man who is charming and treats her well to start with, you and her mother like him, think he's perfect but in fact he's starting to knock down her defences and is abusing her. what if he starts beating her when he's angry and she start thinking it's her fault, and she's too ashamed to tell you because it's all her fault? What if you never see the danger because it's so well hidden, she used to stand up for herself and still can against the enemy outside but not the enemy within? What if you do find out but it's presented in such a way that you think she's mentally ill and her young man is heartbroken about here because she's not well?

This isn't sexual assault as such this is abuse, mental and physical abuse. There will be elements of sexual abuse, rape and forced sex is often part of the armoury the abuser uses.

Too many are smug about abuse, the fact that you are talking about being attacked on the street and sexual assault means you haven't thought about the abuse that happens in the home. We are stuck on the martial arts helps you fight off attacks thing.

 

[crazydiamond]

That's all good but what if she meets a young man who is charming and treats her well to start with, you and her mother like him, think he's perfect but in fact he's starting to knock down her defences and is abusing her. what if he starts beating her when he's angry and she start thinking it's her fault, and she's too ashamed to tell you because it's all her fault? What if you never see the danger because it's so well hidden, she used to stand up for herself and still can against the enemy outside but not the enemy within? What if you do find out but it's presented in such a way that you think she's mentally ill and her young man is heartbroken about here because she's not well?

This isn't sexual assault as such this is abuse, mental and physical abuse. There will be elements of sexual abuse, rape and forced sex is often part of the armoury the abuser uses.

Too many are smug about abuse, the fact that you are talking about being attacked on the street and sexual assault means you haven't thought about the abuse that happens in the home. We are stuck on the martial arts helps you fight off attacks thing.

Oh I think about - I was abused in the home. Its not just a girl problem. I was also severally bullied in school. My point is that assault, violence and abuse comes in my forms and I do think Martial arts -and my school is a piece of the solution to some types. Parenting and education and are approaches for other types. I mean you have martial arts, you have stranger danger programs in schools, you have parenting, and more.

But I think I agree with the original point of this that is a girl (or boy) thinks MA is the end all be all to preventing all types of possible abuse - including sexual abuse - your missing much. Its just a part.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is indeed how they often start but even in these situations, when it turns to physical violence, their are clear threat indicators. Now the previous manipulation may hinder, even prevent, the victim was consciously recognizing the indicators but they are indeed there.

Martial arts also have a factor that I don't think the blog really recognizes the importance of. Experienced abusers are VERY good at reading people and they do not randomly pick targets. They tend to pick victims that lack confidence, self-esteem, those who seek outside validation etc. The way they often "hook" them is by, initially, is by providing the validation, making them think they are the center of the universe. Now all the other issues (right art, instructor etc) still exist BUT if you tick off those boxes the art and training it can provide the confidence a potential victim lacks. It is in effect a form of target hardening which can prevent the abusive relationship from progressing, or even starting, in many cases.

This is something many articles like this one ignore. I don't have statistics to back up my observations (I'm not aware of any studies), but it seems that folks who are training in MA are less involved in physical conflict than the general population. And while there are exceptions, it seems that truly confident people are less represented among those in abusive relationships. Most of us can vouch for how MA training has helped improve our own confidence, so it seems this effect would help lower risks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh I think about - I was abused in the home. Its not just a girl problem. I was also severally bullied in school. My point is that assault, violence and abuse comes in my forms and I do think Martial arts -and my school is a piece of the solution to some types. Parenting and education and are approaches for other types. I mean you have martial arts, you have stranger danger programs in schools, you have parenting, and more.

But I think I agree with the original point of this that is a girl (or boy) thinks MA is the end all be all to preventing all types of possible abuse - including sexual abuse - your missing much. Its just a part.

Don't get me started on Stranger Danger. Talk about delusion...

 

[Flying Crane]

Misread

 

[Flying Crane]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/03/s...on-overcame-horror-to-win-judo-gold.html?_r=0

now this would not have been my first choice as an example but it was the example given in the original blog post.

Ok that's interesting but still fails to convince me that martial arts is a delusional activity.

I don't want to get into a critique of the events of her life, but I will point out that she was quite young when these things happened, and it was her coach, someone with many years of experience above hers. As I said in a previous post there are some situations that people might not be able to defend against, and I can't imagine how anyone would have expected her to combat that situation outside of seeking help from family and friends and law enforcement. Again, that is not the fault of martial arts.