Martial arts delusion and how it hurts women

[hoshin1600]

A friend of mine, a female MMA fighter posted this on her FB site this morning, it's food for thought. Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.

Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.

i pulled this from another thread. i feel it deserves its own thread.

 

[hoshin1600]

i think this topic effects men and the entire industry as much as it effects women.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I skimmed over it, there was one thing that stood out to me:

"Giving up fried food, taking a defensive-driving class, and updating an eyeglass prescription would eliminate more risk from most people’s lives than decades of martial arts training."

You can take martial arts classes for decades and still give up fried food, take a defensive driving class and update your eyeglass prescription.

When someone bashes you over the head with a baseball bat it would not be a lack of fried food, defensive driving class or eyeglass prescription you wished you had

 

[Steve]

She articulates what I've been saying for a long time. Most self defense training isn't going to make you safer.

The chances of someone hitting you in the head with a baseball bat are exceedingly low. The chances of you getting into a car accident are pretty good. The chances of a woman being sexually assaulted are very high... And higher in certain sub-groups, such as a coed in college.

 

[hoshin1600]

"But the “self-protection” delusion is a problem. I would like to see that delusion sliced open and its guts strewn in the dirt: in martial artists, in school marketing, and in the general population".

ok, then lets face the reality that its not a women's issue. its an issue with the complete overarching concept of martial arts. to make this a female agenda would be biased and not addressing the actual problem and thus would never find a solution. the delusion of the ability to protect ones self is a problem for both women and men. to say its a problem for women more then men is merely a matter of percentages. men have to deal with the consequences as well and if you are talking percentages i would point out that more men study martial arts then women. this means more men are being harmed by the fallacy than women.
in my opinion this delusion of ability has been around for a really long time. however in the past individuals were insulated by their group and from the lack of outside information. in the sixties, seventies and eighties it was considered taboo to study more than one art. it was looked down upon to go outside of your particular style. this had an "insulation effect". when someone from the martial arts community was beaten up, killed or raped the thinking was that the fault lay in that style. i actually had an instructor say to the class once " see that guy in the news, he wouldnt have been beaten up and killed if he studied in our school". this was what led to the dojo wars and style wars of my sensei has a bigger "membership" then your sensei. my kung-fu is better than your kung fu. we still see it here in MT threads all the time.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The chances of someone hitting you in the head with a baseball bat are exceedingly low.

It doesn't have to be a baseball bat. There were two instances near me in the last couple of weeks of women getting hit over the head with bricks.

 

[Red Sun]

Here goes...

Yes, exactly. We invest hundreds/thousands of hours and $$$ in our training. We expect it to 'pay off' in some way... It would be *such* an injustice if my boxing (or prior experience in TKD/karate) didn't work when a [*expletive*] pushes me to the ground in 1/2 a second and ruins everything.

“I want to learn to protect myself” means “I want to feel safe from rape.”
I'd prefer to shoot/stab my way out of a mount or a bearhug or a chokehold than try to be a tough girl.
OFC, i can't do that b/c i can't legally own a gun.

 

[hoshin1600]

Marc MacYoung addressed this topic some time ago.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/FEARvsDANGER.html

fear is the driving force behind taking up a martial art. the little nagging feeling in the back of your head that says you not prepared to handle a violent situation. if this was not the case men would be taking up dance rather than martial arts. the reality is that people in general are not really looking for solutions to violence. what they are looking for is for that little voice of fear in their heads to go away. for decades martial arts has done its job of holding the fear at bay. however the internet has changed everything. we are in the information age and we see and hear by far more information. the fear management of martial arts is losing its ability to cope. the man behind the curtain has been revealed.

i agree with Kitsutoshi's blog post. i just feel its a bigger problem than what she addressed.

 

[hoshin1600]

“the vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by someone the woman is acquainted with.” But when women sign up for a martial arts program, what they’re getting is stranger-attack skills."

So then my question is,, why are women going to a martial arts class? did they expect to find knitting? karate teaches karate, aikido teaches aikido and so on and so forth. the martial art curriculum of any style is to teach the chosen art and what that art consists of. is it up to the style to make sure those skills match the individuals needs or is it up the the student to make those skills applicable?
for a karate school to teach karate is not a failure on their part. however it is dis-ingenuous when a martial art school makes claims of self defense and preaches superiority over other venues or styles for the sake of student retention and attendance,, maybe even ego.

 

[Juany118]

Here goes...

Yes, exactly. We invest hundreds/thousands of hours and $$$ in our training. We expect it to 'pay off' in some way... It would be *such* an injustice if my boxing (or prior experience in TKD/karate) didn't work when a [*expletive*] pushes me to the ground in 1/2 a second and ruins everything.

“I want to learn to protect myself” means “I want to feel safe from rape.”
I'd prefer to shoot/stab my way out of a mount or a bearhug or a chokehold than try to be a tough girl.
OFC, i can't do that b/c i can't legally own a gun.

But often you can legally possess a force multiplier. A pocket knife, a kubaton, a Catalg3
etc. It's why I love Filipino Martial Arts, it's not just about obvious weapons and open hand but weapons of opportunity, if taught properly.

 

[Dong xiao hu]

With in the TMA especially those that pride themselves on being descended from a old warrior tradition where not designed for women. In many of those cultures subjugation of women was and is built in to the national system.

If a woman or a girl walks into a martial arts school and says I want to learn to protect myself the instructor is going to say you came to the right place whether they teach self-defense or not, because it's a business and businesses are in business to make money.

I think everyone knows at least one woman who has been assaulted. It isn't something that is easy to talk about even with close friends. There is a bit of a delusion not only in the industry but also in the general public that if you go to a martial arts school you will learn to handle yourself in ALL situations. Many instructors could do with a bit of continued education. It could be said however that the return on the investment may Not be worth the cost to a instructor who doesn't already have a large number of female students.

Sent from my Z797C using Tapatalk

 

[hoshin1600]

while i generally agree with Kitsutoshi's blog and her recognition of the problem i question where the problem originates. i dont think the problem lies with the martial arts school or style curriculum (unless they are making false claims). i feel the problem originates with the consumer looking for solutions and answers in the wrong place.

the psychology of the individual who chooses to take up martial arts is one of self reliance and independence. this is the same psychology as gun owners. they feel the responsibility and the need for self reliance and choose to take the responsibility for their own well being and protection. others feel that its best left to the police and military for protection.

the problem Kitsutoshi points out is not really a problem but rather we as a community and a society are "growing up" we see our past mistakes and have a better more aware view point of the situation. growing pains.
this puts the responsibility back in our laps to know what we want and what we need. i feel the recognition of a problem is a good thing. we have been blind way too long.

 

[Flying Crane]

"But the “self-protection” delusion is a problem. I would like to see that delusion sliced open and its guts strewn in the dirt: in martial artists, in school marketing, and in the general population".

ok, then lets face the reality that its not a women's issue. its an issue with the complete overarching concept of martial arts. to make this a female agenda would be biased and not addressing the actual problem and thus would never find a solution. the delusion of the ability to protect ones self is a problem for both women and men. to say its a problem for women more then men is merely a matter of percentages. men have to deal with the consequences as well and if you are talking percentages i would point out that more men study martial arts then women. this means more men are being harmed by the fallacy than women.
in my opinion this delusion of ability has been around for a really long time. however in the past individuals were insulated by their group and from the lack of outside information. in the sixties, seventies and eighties it was considered taboo to study more than one art. it was looked down upon to go outside of your particular style. this had an "insulation effect". when someone from the martial arts community was beaten up, killed or raped the thinking was that the fault lay in that style. i actually had an instructor say to the class once " see that guy in the news, he wouldnt have been beaten up and killed if he studied in our school". this was what led to the dojo wars and style wars of my sensei has a bigger "membership" then your sensei. my kung-fu is better than your kung fu. we still see it here in MT threads all the time.

I think that taboo is more modern perception than actual reality. I've seen comments by some guys who were training during that era, and they were all training across school and system boundaries. Everyone trained with everyone, at least in some places.

 

[hoshin1600]

I think that taboo is more modern perception than actual reality. I've seen comments by some guys who were training during that era, and they were all training across school and system boundaries. Everyone trained with everyone, at least in some places.

i will admit my comment was from my own experience and those i personally know and trained with.

 

[Flying Crane]

The premise of this discussion is something I find odd. Training in martial arts in and of itself is not a bad thing or a delusional thing. Some schools are higher quality than others, and in some cases the differences can be exponential, so there is an element of caveat emptor.

But it still comes down to the person, and what they are able to do with their training. Some will be more capable than others. And there will be some circumstances in which there is simply no escape, no matter the person or their training. There are no guarantees with their training.

To blame this on martial arts as a whole is just...a weird position to take.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

for a karate school to teach karate is not a failure on their part. however it is dis-ingenuous when a martial art school makes claims of self defense and preaches superiority over other venues or styles for the sake of student retention and attendance,, maybe even ego.

It is not a failure on the part of a martial arts school if it properly advertises what it is teaching. If it is a school that focuses on sporting competitions then advertise it as such. If it is a fitness kickboxing class then advertise it as such. If it is self-defense then again, advertise it as such. But if you claim to represent one specific teaching methodology then you had better have the proper training and method of teaching for than venue. To do or advertise otherwise is misleading the student. That's why it's always been my pet peeve against a school that uses one teaching methodology to claim that it works for something outside of that methodology for the sake of gaining/retaining students. That is nothing more than dishonest.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The biggest issue within this community that gears self-defense towards women is that they gloss over all of the non-physical material that is important in personal protection. To many instructors give lip service to awareness, avoidance, de-escalation techniques, pre-violence indicators, etc. There is also the inevitable "expectations" of the participants as well. There has to be more than you just need to be aware, oh and avoid these places. That is a disservice to women in general and anyone interested in personal protection skills. It is just lazy!

Now, every class should have conversations about personal protection. It could show threat indicators as shown in the video below:

In my case I could talk about violent encounters I have encountered during work related activities. Or road rage situations I have avoided. Or how one of our female practitioner's avoided a confrontation, etc. Constant reinforcing of awareness skills, avoidance skills, de-escalation skills, etc. are a must. These skills are very, very important but often glossed over by some instructors.

Even more than in every class a good program will have required reading.

Such as:
The Gift Of Fear by Gavin De Becker
Meditations on Violence by Rory Miller
Facing Violence by Rory Miller
Self Defense: What you need to know when you need it by Marc McYoung
and more!

Physical skills are just one part of the solution to giving yourself a chance in a violent encounter. Mental skills are even more essential as you will use them more often! Certain groups will need even more specific training. Domestic abuse is one of the hardest because anyone who has worked with domestically abused people will tell you that quite often you coach, counsel, etc. and the person is right back with the abuser. Very, very sad and the abuse can continue.

In regards to physical skills: Weapons, striking, grappling and more need to be addressed. Firearm training, ccw, other tools, defensive driving. There is a lot of ground to cover and anyone setting up a serious program should be prepared to have outside instructors, counselors come in to teach.

Steve is correct in that physical violence is more rare but it does happen so training for it is definitely not a waste of time. In my personal family two of the four closest women to me have been assaulted. One by a boyfriend and one by a mugger. Both survived and are fine. Two of four. Let that sink in... This is not all that uncommon when you talk to people.

 

[hoshin1600]

The premise of this discussion is something I find odd. Training in martial arts in and of itself is not a bad thing or a delusional thing. Some schools are higher quality than others, and in some cases the differences can be exponential, so there is an element of caveat emptor.

But it still comes down to the person, and what they are able to do with their training. Some will be more capable than others. And there will be some circumstances in which there is simply no escape, no matter the person or their training. There are no guarantees with their training.

To blame this on martial arts as a whole is just...a weird position to take.

i have to ask if you read the blog link?
if you have then i feel you have missed the point.

Some schools are higher quality than others,

can you explain what you mean by this?
the point of the original blog was perhaps proven by this statement. its not about the quality of the style, the school or the individual. this is the usual presumed failure. it is about the mistaken presumption that learning to kick and punch is the equivalent to self defense. in many cases it is not.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The biggest issue within this community that gears self-defense towards women is that they gloss over all of the non-physical material that is important in personal protection. To many instructors give lip service to awareness, avoidance, de-escalation techniques, pre-violence indicators, etc. There is also the inevitable "expectations" of the participants as well. There has to be more than you just need to be aware, oh and avoid these places. That is a disservice to women in general and anyone interested in personal protection skills. It is just lazy!

Bingo. Add on the legalities of using force to the equation. Checking for self-injury, first contact with the authorities, stun-n-run etc. The altercation should be avoided if/when at all possible and hands on is really when your overall plan has failed, your non-force options have been taken away and you've been forced to use force.

 

[Flying Crane]

i have to ask if you read the blog link?
if you have then i feel you have missed the point.


can you explain what you mean by this?
the point or the original blog was perhaps proven by this statement. its not about the quality of the style, the school or the individual. this is the usual presumed failure. it is about the mistaken presumption that learning to kick and punch is the equivalent to self defense. in many cases it is not.

I read part of the blog link, but not thru to the end.
For some people, learning to punch and kick IS enough. For others, it is not.

What I take from the premise of the blog is that martial arts training is delusional. That is probably an over simplification, but still accurate in a nutshell.

And I say, no it is not, but it really depends on the person and what they are able to do with their training.