Martial arts and Christianity?

[Turner]

I am Apostolic Pentecostal, son of a Minister, 'called' into the ministry and a Martial Artist to boot. Christianity and the Martial Arts are two different animals and should be treated that way. There are a few pitfalls that a Christian must watch out for in the study of the martial arts, but you have more pitfalls in your daily life.

Problems that I've faced:

Bowing: I do not believe that it is appropriate for a Christian to show such reverence/submission to anyone/anything aside from God. Many people will counter by saying that the bow is not a symbol of supplication but is rather the oriental equivelant of a handshake. That is what it has become, but it started as a way of offering your life to someone by exposing your neck so that your head could be chopped off. As a Christian, my life is not mine to offer, it is Gods to do with as He pleases. There are have been times when my beliefs have kept me from participating in classes or events and that is fine. Due to the high value of martial skill to me, I have to offer him more than what he might charge... In the form of loyalty and an obligation... I am indebted to him. If a man has shown that he does not respect my beliefs and will turn me away because I worship differently than he, then he is not the type of man I should be indebted to. Simple as that. I offer no arguements and no complaints. I walk away and find what I need elsewhere.

Meditation: As an instructor I don't have my students meditate because my classes are too short. At two hours long, they are longer than all of the other local instructors provide (which I can't understand, 1.5 hour classes are worthless to me.) but are still not long enough to share everything that I might want to share in a day. Something is going to get thrown out and meditation is one of those things.
I often get asked by other Christian martial artists whether or not meditation is wrong, my answer is simple... It depends what you are meditating on. Eastern philosophy has it that you empty your mind and strive to have no thought, no desire, and no purpose, however the Bible exhorts you to meditate upon God all the day long. Putting aside our desire to be Christ-like and our purpose in life (To be positive Ambassadors for God) is something that we should not do. So when your instructor asks you to meditate, take that time to meditate on God. Instead of thinking nothing, allow your mind to dwell upon The Everything. You will find the same peace and relaxation as they do.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me:
Many Christians will look at this and say "Huh, what does this have to do with the martial arts?" Well, the study of the martial arts is a way of life. After many years of study, you will find that it becomes incorporated into everything that you do. You will use the theories in business, you will use the stances to make your everyday tasks more efficient, you will begin to use parts of your body to do things that will cause a lot of people to look at you strange if you do it in public. All of this is fine. (It better be or I am doomed.) The real issue is found in how big a part of you it becomes. Imagine that you are asked "How would you describe yourself?" What would your answer be? Being a Christian should be first and foremost. Then you can be a martial artist second. The top priority, the top love, the top passion in your life (as a Christian) should be God.
I am not saying that you should attend church every single Sunday and Wednesday or you are condemned. If there is a seminar going to be in town on a Sunday and you will have to skip church to attend. Skip church. The church will be there next sunday, but the seminar won't. Now, if there is a class that you would like to attend that is on Sunday and that is the only time you can get to church... I would probably choose the Church. My eternal salvation is a little bit more important than my knowing how to remain alive in a conflict.
Being a good Christian doesn't mean that you have to take offense at things all the time. Matter of fact, very little should offend you. Compassion, forgiveness, understanding... these are your traits, not close-mindedness and finger pointing. Being overly pios or pompous isn't good either. Remember that if you are claiming to striving to be Christ-like, people are looking at you to see if they can see Christ in you and how it has enriched your life. God knows each man by his heart. Man knows God by looking at how a Christian appears/acts.

For a Christian, the martial arts is a great way to get closer to God. Not only do you talk to him more (Oh God, please don't let him hit me hard. God, please don't make me have to uke with so-and-so.) you will learn many things about honor, ethics, and morality that will help you become a better person, hense a better witness.

One last pitfall, being too much of a witness:
An extremely devout Christian will have such a love for God that he/she will want to share it with everyone. We must, though, remember the Biblical principles of moderation in all things that we do. To use an analogy, if I may, if one stuffs themselves with too much food the body will regurgitate that food. If you try to force your beliefs down someones throat, like the body does to too much food, the person will reject it.
Shorinji Kempo was a martial art that was created to be a vehicle to attempt to rebuild the confidence and character of Japanese youth. I believe that there are plenty more martial arts that were used as a vehicle to expose people to a philisophical or religious point of view. Because of this there are many people who believe that the Martial Arts and Religion are inseperable. To a certain extent this is true because when you deal with matters of death/killing, you will need a moral compass to follow. However, I find it reprehensible for people to have an alterior motive for teaching the martial arts. There are plenty of Christian martial artists out there that require memory verses for rank promotion and will often teach Christian principles in their class. If the class is a closed class/Bible-study, its all good. If the class is open to the public with intent of bringing others to Christ, its not a good thing. You should strive to be a good witness in a martial arts setting by presenting yourself as a role model for others to follow. I am Apostolic Pentecostal and it is something that I am proud of, however I rarely initiate a discussion about religion with anyone. Like any other Christian, I am tasked with the responsibility of "Preaching the Gospel to all the world." As one of the parables puts it, this is bearing fruit. A good christian will bear good fruit. To have a little bit of fun with this Parable... thinking of a tree, what determines whether a branch will bear good fruit? Go look at a tree that has fruit. There will be some branches that have loads of fruit and there will be those deformed, misshapen, gnarled up branches that have no fruit at all. Whats causes a branch to bear good fruit? A healthy connection to the trunk! I'm not going to win people to my side by shaking my leaves at them. I'm going to win them because I have a good connection to the trunk. So I say, in a martial arts class... Focus on the martial arts. Some people take that class because they want to be prepared for combat. Focus on getting them prepared to defend themselves and then, because you have a good connection to the trunk, they start asking you about your religion and what you believe... then you can start talking to them.

Again, sorry for being so long-winded... I think too much.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by wayne

Would you say that Marial arts are AGAINST christianity? My dance instructor used to be a dedicated marital artist but then he left it all for Christianity.

He said that "martial arts has a spirit attached to it, and that spirit is not Christian". He also said that "i left martial arts because i cant serve 2 masters (2 faiths)

What is your opinion on this??? Do you agree or dissagree with these statements

wayne

p.s i love BOTH

I would say that it depends on the MA and the christian style.
MA as taught in Japan is influenced by the japanese culture. And some people feel that their cultur is full of religion. Alot of the japanese way is to have respect and "laws & rules" for everything. Where westerners feel that since they have to follow rules(can be read as respect) in every aspect, they think of it as an religion.

On the other hand , if someone pratices Chritianaty, and believe that everthing should be dictated by "God", then anything else than there own reigion is wrong.

I believe that the 2 can be combined, but if you want to understand (the really gut understanding)of MA, you'll have to relate to the more "relegious" part.

/Yari

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Turner


Meditation: As an instructor I don't have my students meditate because my classes are too short. At two hours long, they are longer than all of the other local instructors provide (which I can't understand, 1.5 hour classes are worthless to me.) but are still not long enough to share everything that I might want to share in a day. Something is going to get thrown out and meditation is one of those things.
Again, sorry for being so long-winded... I think too much.

Hi Tuner

I don't agree with you, but I don't find that an issues, 'cause I think it's a question of belife, and your belife is as good as anyone elses.

But I wanted to elaborate on the meditation stuff you wrote.
I've been taght that meditation is not a means of removing or becoming blank. It's more like a bottle that's full of water and sand. If you stress, then the water is mucky, but leaving the bottle , the sand will fall down and you can see through the bottle, ie. seeing clearly. So in that sense meditation can be used for anybody. If you put religious stuff into the meditation, of course it'll be religious then.

/Yari

 

[thdelambert]

I practice Tai Ji Qan and I am a Christian ; I can honnestly say that no, Martial Arts are not agaisnt christianity and christianity is not against Martial Arts.

Martail Arts are ways to feel better, increase the love for different culture and others people. And Catholic religion says the same. So I really don't think ther is a problem.

By the way, I am a new member, I am french, I am 25, I practice Tai Ji Qan for 7 years now.

I am sorry, my english is not very good but I will practice, I promise

 

[Cthulhu]

I don't think Turner was saying that martial arts are 'against' Christianity, just that some martial artists seem to be against his conviction to his beliefs in connection to their Asian customs.

From what I gathered, Turner seems to be advocating a kind of 'separation of Church and State', but with the martial arts instead.

I am not a Christian, though I come from a Catholic family. I've also never had to confront the issues that have been brought forth. I think Turner's post has given me a better insight into the mind of a person who is a devout Christian and dedicated martial artist. I think I'd now be better prepared if such a student were to present themselves to me.

Thanks, Turner!

Cthulhu

 

[thdelambert]

First, thanks for the explanation. I did not understand that. I think it might be difficult to be able to draw a line between your beliefs and the way you practice martial arts.
In France, I know that a lot of personns have difficulties with the fact that you have to call your teacher sifu or senseï.
Is it the same where you practice ?

Thib

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Since I can't say anything nice about people like that, I'll simply say that I disagree.

Cthulhu

Bingo!!!! couldn't have said it better, that reflects my thoughts.


:asian:

 

[disciple]

Originally posted by Turner

Many people will counter by saying that the bow is not a symbol of supplication but is rather the oriental equivelant of a handshake. That is what it has become, but it started as a way of offering your life to someone by exposing your neck so that your head could be chopped off

I disagree with this statement. If you really learn how to bow carefully, your eyes NEVER EVER leave the opponent. So even if you bow, you still pay attention to the opponent and your head won't get chopped off. :samurai:

salute

:asian: (but still paying attention to you )

 

[tshadowchaser]

I bow to show respect.
I bow in respect.
I bow to acknowledge my partner,my instructor, my heritage.
I bow to my enemy because I still respect him for standing across from me (not stabbing me in the back.
Hell I bow going into stores, schools, when addressing anyone my senior in age (boy dose that limit it)
I do not feel this disrespects my belifes because I do not bow to the above in place of my belifes nor do I put the above on a higher plan.
Each to there own and I respect everyones right to fell as they do
Shadow:asian:

 

[Chiduce]

Well, this is a great and powerful question. Since the beginning of man christianity has had it's bloodshed. This will continue until the end of time! Now in the present tense, Christianity and the Martial Arts have been hand in hand for centuries. The Boy Scouts Of America introduced physical exercise in their beginning training manual. Since the scouts started in Jolly Old England the first scouting martial arts experience was learning the movements of the quarterstaff. This ideal brought many american young men and women (girl scouts) as well to their respective understanding of a martial way within the west in the early days of scouting! Now scouting usually is backed by religious institutionalism. So, it also can be assumed the church, here and all abroad support combative ways of not only the military, militia for the cause of freedom, justice, and equal rights. Let us not forget that the catholic church once trained assassins to do their bidding. This is fact in the history of religion and the world. Especially true for the old monarchy of england. I'am a baptist christian and teach 2 ordained decons. I also attend serivces regularly and see the different opinions of those whom confess christianity only for moral issues and reasons. The bible teaches to love, honor, and respect. yet it also states that you must not be moved in your walk through life with Him. The bible teaches obedience to God and country and fellow man. Does martial arts not reveal these same principles in living? The Bible speaks and teaches about the consequences of living within the world! Does not the martial arts speak and teach these same principles? Does not the biblical teachings and martial teachings separate us from the evil and wickedness of others if we study their teachings and have revealed to our spirits revelations of good intent and deed? In disgust, does not the christian become as evil and wicked as the world? I do not mean to step on any toes by this post. I only wish to set the record straight about our spiritual likeness to the Almighty. Yes, we can Even Rain Fire And Brimestone! Sabba papassa akaranam; or; Avoid all evil! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[donald]

Originally posted by Turner
There are plenty of Christian martial artists out there that require memory verses for rank promotion and will often teach Christian principles in their class. If the class is a closed class/Bible-study, its all good. If the class is open to the public with intent of bringing others to Christ, its not a good thing.



Turner,
First let me say hello brother! I am a Pentecostal believer too, and have at times struggled with the compatability of m.a. training. Although these days I am, by God's grace more at peace about it. I truly enjoyed most of your post. With the exception of the above quote. My thinking is very much along the lines you mentioned. Using the m.a. class to further the Gospel. My reasoning for this approach. Is to expose the Gospel to someone who may not enter a church, but has a curiosity about the martial arts!!! Thereby using the m.a. s' as a 2 pronged tool. Both for excercise, and as a ministering tool. I truly enjoy the martial arts, and hope that by God's grace I can reach someone for Him through the training. Are you a kenpo practioner by chance? It does'nt really matter, but I am curious. Thank you for your time, and thank you fellow m.a.tlk. posters.
Salute in Christ,
Donald

 

[Kirk]

Donald, do you think it fair that a satanist open up an m.a.
school with that same notion? Is to expose the satanic gospel to someone who may not enter an occult church, but has a curiosity about the martial arts? I'm a christian myself, but if I walked into
your school, and was asked "do you have a personal relationship
with Jesus Christ?" I would IMMEDIATELY feel swindled! Yes, the
bible says to bear witness, but it doesn't say to do it under the
guise of anything other than what it is. I challenge you to give
me gospel where any prophet or Jesus acted in this way? Where
they brought people in saying "free food" or whatever, and then
said "while you're eating this, let me tell you about the Gospel".
If you make it known you're a christian, and one of your students
asks you about it, fine. But bringing it up to a student who's just
there to learn M.A. ... just sounds wrong to me.


Peace

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

I challenge you to give
me gospel where any prophet or Jesus acted in this way? Where
they brought people in saying "free food" or whatever, and then
said "while you're eating this, let me tell you about the Gospel".

Ah yes, the lesson of Major Barbara. Certainly this is something commonly done today in many settings.

I wouldn't mix the martial arts with something else but I can't imagine any abstract reason for not doing so--the martial arts are more sold on their exercise strengths to adults and grade/behaviour improvement effects to kids, after all. If someone wants to mix preaching and the martial arts, that's fine--it's a private club, not a public school. It would likely drive me away but that's my choice.

 

[Klondike93]

I have to agree with arnisador, I don't think you should mix martial arts with religon. I am not a religous person at all, but that aside, if you start preaching the bible then you what about the muslems in your school, or the jews, or? You can see where this creates problems. When I was learning to be a bartender I was told there are 2 rules.
1. Never discuss politics whith the customer
2. Never discuss religon with the customer
I've always attempted to do this because, everyone has an oppinion and their's is always right to them.

:shrug:


:asian:

 

[Shotochem]

IMHO I believe we take MAs to be something mystical and a spiritual thing when they are just FIGHTING SYSTEMS that were designed to cause your enemy harm and protect yourself.

Sometimes all is as it seems.....

It may be that simple.....:asian: :asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally Posted By: Arnisador
If someone wants to mix preaching and the martial arts, that's fine--it's a private club, not a public school.

You are correct there, I don't argue. But it's 1) bad business ..
would you buy a tub from a man that said "come in a great a
lifetime warranty on a tub, installed free, and a free dishwasher
with it" and when you got there, it's a 30 day warranty, 100 bucks
extra for installation, and no dishwasher? 2) immoral .. it's a lie.
If you present yourself as a martial arts school, and never
mention christianity until you've been signed up .. then you're
conning your students. And that's just plain wrong! I'd have
no problem at all (and might even sign up) if they advertised,
or had a sign on the door saying "This is a Christian Martial
Arts School. Both Christianity and Martial Arts are taught here.
They go hand in hand in this school".

 

[deadhand31]

donald, i have to agree with everyone on this. i'm christian, but i would never engage in such a decietful tactic. using the martial arts as a "2 pronged tool"? are you kidding me???? prongs are for stabbing, not teaching. when i go to my school, i go to learn tkd, and get along with my fellow students. if religion should come up, i'll discuss, and keep an open mind. however, if my instructor were to start making it part of class, and make gospel memorization mandatory, i would leave, and file with the better business bureau. if a person has an interest in the martial arts, help him strengthen that interest. if he should happen to have an interest in christianity, help him strengthen that, too. don't use deception. from my understanding, it's the dark side that uses deception.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Shotochem

IMHO I believe we take MAs to be something mystical and a spiritual thing when they are just FIGHTING SYSTEMS that were designed to cause your enemy harm and protect yourself.

We'll maybe they started off like that, and then I agree. But most japanese systems today have a lot more to offer than just fighting, and I think if you ask most teachers they'll tell you you can learn much more than fighting from most styls.

On the other hand. I'm not Christian, so maybe that's why I can take the stand I do. But if any MA dojo started telling me a "religion", I'll take it as a personal agenda. Because after at least 20 years of MA, I beleive that MA isn't a religion, but what you make it out to be (like everything else, just like religion).

/Yari

 

[Turner]

Good Evening All,

I emphatically agree with the majority of those that have posted when talking about using the Martial Arts as a vehicle to bring others to Christ. I place my position as a man of God first in my life, but when it comes to teaching my Kenpo classes I do not speak about religion unless it is to answer questions of students who might worry if it is against their beliefs.
I do find it immoral, plain and simple, to use my class to spread the Gospel. There are exceptions to this... for example, if you advertise very openly and plainly that it is your intent to help people develop a closer relationship with God. Its not something that you only tell those people that come into your school asking for information on your style.. its something that should be posted very plainly on your doors, advertisements, and any other promotional material. Let people know before they walk in the door that they are going to be exposed to your faith.
You shouldn't need to require memory verses or other religious information as part of the curriculum in order to witness to people. Your relationship with God should be revealed in your every action. If you provide a shining light, others will naturally be attracted to you. I've moved around a lot in my life and I've had the opportunity to meet a lot of people. Now, I am not one that ever speaks of my religion first because I know that really puts people off and will turn them away from what I say for more times than it will actually interest someone. However, in meeting new people; in class or at work, people will easily identify me as a Pentecostal and will initiate religious conversation.
From the Christian perspective, the best way to be a witness is to live your life with a deep love for God and having the truth people will see it in you and ask you to share it. If you need tactics and strategy to get people inside your church doors, you've already got problems and need to be thinking about strengthening your connection to the trunk, using the same analogy as before.

About bowing... Each of us have our own beliefs on this subject. Even Christians will differ on whether or not bowing is something that we should do. In my studies of Goju-Ryu and many other styles I bowed and thought nothing of it. Without realizing that it was an issue with people, I began to have an issue with it. To be religious, I would say that God began to deal with me about it. I was reminded of the story Mordecai and Haman and how old Mordecai refused to bow down to this guy. Why? It was just against their beliefs. Haman didn't think he was a God, he was just the kings pet. Just a man, but Mordecai didn't bow down to him and was ready to die for his beliefs. Why did Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo get thrown into the furnace? Because they refused to bow down to King, Daniel got thrown into the Lions den for now bowing down to the same King. (Now this King thought highly of himself even to the point that he proclaimed himself as God, but if you read the Bible you'll see that he knew that Daniel's God was the one true God.) All of these guys refused to bow to men and these are the basic Bible stories we teach our young... why is it that we seem to forget this when we enter into Martial Art class. Bowing is bowing. Whether you agree with History or not, the Japanese bow WAS showing reverence for someone by offering their life to them. Because of its frequent use and the lack of swords in our environment this has become forgotten.. But so has the purpose of a salute and handshake. A salute was the basic motion of the Knights raising his visor in order to show other knights that he was a friend. Two enemies clasped hands while in conversation to demonstrate that they weren't armed and this became the common handshake. Bowing is something that I am strongly against and so I will avoid doing it.

I am so thankful to be in a free country, because there will be many people that will disagree with me. Luckily we have the rights to our own beliefs and our own ways of doing things. I'm glad I'm not in Pakistan where I have to worry about a grenade being thrown into my church because I serve God differently. I get ridiculed because of the lengths at which my church goes in order to do right in Gods eyes, because many think we go too far. My friend, I'd rather go to far and do too much then to fall short in the end. When it comes to Kenpo I get ridiculed for my way of doing things, I stand strong in my place because I do what I feel is right and good and so I don't feel threatened by others opinions. I am glad when people come to me with both negative and positive statements because I think it is wonderful that people have the freedom to do so. We all have the right to agree or disagree and that is just plain awesome!

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Turner

Two enemies clasped hands while in conversation to demonstrate that they weren't armed and this became the common handshake.

This may be true for a western way, but eastern is bowing , no handshaking at all. It has come to the eastern way by western influence, but no handhshaking. So if were looking back in historie for answers, your very impolite not to "shake hands(read bow)" with people. So the other way around would be that somebody stopped shaking your hand because it's a certain religion,...........

A bow is many things, not just 1 thing. Try handshaking with a person who never has handshaked before, and you'll notice that handshaking is an undefined art: how long do you hold, how tight, both hands , which hand , and so on. Same way with bowing. If you bow to SHOW your neck that means you giving your life, or in other terms: Your showing yourself not to be better than the other, and are willing to let the other pass first.
I beleive that thinking you are better than others is not a part of christianity, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree on looking at why things are as they are today, but defineing things from what there were, and not what they are, I don't agree. If i agree on that handshaking is invading a persons social sphere with alle my pupils, then thats the rule. If we agree on that the bow is only to show respekt, and to say sorry for any inconviences I might put you under while praticing together, and saying sorry for any bruses I gave you , when your finished praticing, then that's that.

It's like changing the meaning of a word, just because it meant something different for 100 years ago. Like the word vulgar(sp?). In daily speach I think it means something not nice, something estrem, but the correct usage is that it means simple. Now how would it look if some people went around and used the correct meaning, while everbody else used the meaning we all use?

I just want to close off with that I'm not trying to disrespect Tuner, or hos belife, but to tell how I feel and see the world. Tuner gave me just the possiblity.

No intention to hurt or anything against Tuner!

HUmbly
Yari