Christianity VERSUS Buddhism!!

[heretic888]

Jamie,

I hate to break this to you, but the so-called Testimonium Flavius is almost universally regarded by scholars as a Christian forgery. Some scholars, such as those you have cited, seem to believe there was an original reference to Jesus that was later "edited" by Christian writers (to make Josephus' claims more grandiose and devout), but the truth is there is no real evidence for this claim. It rests on a priori presuppositions about both the existence of Jesus Christ, as well as the biographical details of his life.

This passage, nor anything even similar to it, is ever referenced by Church fathers (such as, say, Origen of Alexandria, who directly quotes Josephus in his surviving works) prior to the 5th century CE. In addition, the passage is grammatically "awkward" in that if you remove it from the text, the preceding and succeeding passages (which have nothing to do with Jesus or the Christians) "flow" much more naturally between one another.

Even if we assume that there was an original reference to Jesus that later become exaggerated (and that's a big if here), Josephus wrote his history of the Jews around 100 CE and does not draw upon any apparent primary sources (no references or citations for his information). This puts his information more than a full lifetime removed from the purported events in question. As such, his descriptions of Jesus Christ are, at best, little more than word-of-mouth information that somebody may have heard from their grandparents. This is hardly a rock-hard historical source here.

Sorry, but I remain unconvinced.

Laterz.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Josephus's writings, and much of the historical aspects of the existance or non-existance of Jesus has been discussed in depth before. The conclusion is that Josephus's writings were tampered with after his death to reflect then-current church needs, and as such cannot be considered a reliable reference source.


The Bible, Hell, and Other Topics of Casual Delight
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27201&highlight=Josephus

Newsweek Poll: Majority of Americans Believe the Bible to be Historically Accurate
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19988&highlight=Josephus

Ten Commandments...."Rules" or "Continuum?" for living.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18325&highlight=Josephus

God
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5653&highlight=Josephus

Bible proven by Fulfilled Prophecies
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17247&highlight=Josephus

Judeo-Christian wackiness
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14450&highlight=Josephus

The Historical Jesus.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10609&highlight=Josephus

 

[Seabrook]

It doesn't look like I can convince you guys.

All I can do is try.


No hard feelings.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Jamie,
Can I be convinced that Christianity is the only way? No.
Can I be convinced that it is based on actual people, actual events, etc? Sure, with accurate data. We just haven't found it yet.
Am I open to more information? Always.
Does a lack of evidence mean it's wrong? Nope. Like I said, Troy was a fable, until someone found the city, all on the strength of a song.

Never a hard feeling on my end. I ask so that I might learn. And, I drive my friends crazy with some of these discussions.

 

[heretic888]

It doesn't look like I can convince you guys.

All I can do is try.


No hard feelings.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Jamie,

No hard feelings at all.

We can respectfully agree to disagree.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

Jamie,
Can I be convinced that Christianity is the only way? No.
Can I be convinced that it is based on actual people, actual events, etc? Sure, with accurate data. We just haven't found it yet.
Am I open to more information? Always.
Does a lack of evidence mean it's wrong? Nope. Like I said, Troy was a fable, until someone found the city, all on the strength of a song.

Never a hard feeling on my end. I ask so that I might learn. And, I drive my friends crazy with some of these discussions.

Bob,

For me, personally, the primary issue is that there should be more substantial evidence of the historical existence of Jesus Christ, as well as his biographical details. The truth is it's simply not there. Not yet, anyway.

The earliest Christian writings we have are the letters attributed to Paul --- with the qualification that at least some of them are forgeries written centuries after Paul died and the purportedly "authentic" ones have at least partially been altered by later Church scribes --- and not only is he conspiscuously silent about the details of Christ's life, but the details he does give are often at conflict with those of the later Gospel narrative. For example, in Galatians, Paul says Jesus appeared before the Twelve after the resurrection. However, in the Gospel narrative, the "Twelve" no longer existed as Judas Iscariot had commited suicide. Likewise, Paul complains that "we do not even know how we should pray", apparently ignorant of the Gospel dictum of the Lord's Prayer.

Early Church fathers are quite vague concerning the details of Christ's life. We don't see anything resembling a full biography akin to what is written in the Gospels until sometime between 120 and 140 CE. For that matter, "Christians" are not even mentioned by Roman historians until sometime between 110 and 120 CE. When we do hear about Christianity in some detail, it is most widespread in areas like Egypt, Syria, Asia Minor, and Rome. It is almost unheard of in Israel, its supposed nation of origin. Likewise, the vast majority of early Christians seem to have leaning toward some form of Gnosticism or Docetism. They are, for the most part, not the Literalists we think of with traditional Church doctrine.

The fact that that are several proto-Christian elements in the Hellenistic world prior to the first century --- such as the practices of the Alexandrian Therapeutae (whom Church historian Eusebius mistakenly believed to be the first followers of Christ) and the popularity of Jewish intertestamental works like the Books of Enoch (which has a similar Divine Redeemer that is the Son of God) --- as well as the popularity of Gnosticism/Docetism and the prevalence of "Christianity" in places like Egypt and Syria, give logical credence to the claim that the figure of "Jesus Christ" was, originally, a spiritual archetype for these individuals. Not a historical teacher.

Now, personally, it won't shatter my world if it turns out there was a historical "Jesus Christ". What I take from Christianity is largely derived from mystical treatises, such as those from St. Dionysius, St. Gregory, St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, and so on. Most of the other stuff is of only minimal concern to me, just a passing interest that doesn't directly impact my life. If it turns out there really was a first century mystical Jewish teacher called "Jesus of Nazareth" who figured himself after the perennial figure of Osiris-Dionysus, then so be it. It doesn't change the spiritual authenticity of Christian mysticism, which is really all I am personally concerned with.

Laterz.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

And that brings up another point. Even if the historical fact turns out to be that Christianity as a whole is little more than a blending of various older stories, cultural characteristics, myths, and renaming of people, would it invalidate the messages contained within, or the feelings of confidence, security etc that deep believers have? I don't think so. I think that it is but 1 window, into a deeper universe. I'm personally trying to see through as many windows as I can before I rejoin the universe (or get reincarnated as a cat.)

 

[heretic888]

And that brings up another point. Even if the historical fact turns out to be that Christianity as a whole is little more than a blending of various older stories, cultural characteristics, myths, and renaming of people, would it invalidate the messages contained within, or the feelings of confidence, security etc that deep believers have? I don't think so. I think that it is but 1 window, into a deeper universe. I'm personally trying to see through as many windows as I can before I rejoin the universe (or get reincarnated as a cat.)

Bob,

On a similar note, I personally don't believe a historical Siddartha Gautama existed, either, for much the same reasons as a historical Jesus Christ. That doesn't stop me from drawing heavily on Buddhist teachings for my own personal understanding of philosophy and spirituality. Nor does it impact the authenticity of Buddhist meditative practice.

It is exactly as I said before: historical accuracy and spiritual authenticity have nothing to do with one another.

Laterz.

 

[Cryozombie]

You know what I think...

(not that anyone cares)

You can base your "beliefs" and "understanding" on what you have read, been taught, been raised to believe, or on cold statistics and "factual" science...

or you can develop an understanding of the universe around you thru personal experiences and your "feelings" of connection to your diety...

In the end, its only gonna matter to you... either you are dust, a cow, or you stand before the creator and explain yourself.

Personally... I dont give 2... cents... about the proof... I have seen enough personal "proof" in my life to validate my belief in god and Christianity, and to draw me out of a deep seated HATRED of christians and my life as a Satanist (the Levay type, not the goat sacrificing type) to become a believer. Dont care what you think or believe, until you start telling ME what to believe... then I might come back atcha. I wont preach and convert and tell you you are wrong... thats not why i was placed on this earth.

 

[Bester]

Whatever works for you baby, whatever works.

I leave you with some words of true wisdom:

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

# Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!

This is a lttle prayer dedicated to the separation of church and state. I guess if they are going to force those kids to pray in schools they might as well have a nice prayer like this: Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming. Amen and Awomen.

 

[Cryozombie]

# Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!

Thanks, George.

 

[heretic888]

Technopunk,

One should be wary of the self-referential fallacy: the notion that an experience inherently proves its own validity. Any experience, no matter how sublime or life-changing, may unknowingly be suspect to the biases and presuppositions of the observer (whether they be personal or cultural). It is circular logic to believe something is true merely because it references itself (whether this be phenomenology or text).

That is why something like peer review and communal confirmation is absolutely essential. Even in the world's great spiritual traditions, mystical or contemplative practice takes place within communities (such as the Buddhist sangha) of those that share your pursuits. They constantly act as a buffer and a grounding force to ensure you're not flying off into dangerous territory. Even in experientially-based religions like Zen, your experiences and insights (kensho) are constantly confirmed and checked against a knowledgeable instructor (or, sometimes, group of seekers).

Keep that in mind.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

Bester,

No one on this thread has argued for --- or even brought up --- the collapse of the Separation of Church and State. I'm afraid this is just polemic on your part and does not contribute to the discussion at hand.

Laterz.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Besters closing comments seem to be drawn from George Carlin.
I recognize the last bit as being from a recent concert.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Bester,

No one on this thread has argued for --- or even brought up --- the collapse of the Separation of Church and State. I'm afraid this is just polemic on your part and does not contribute to the discussion at hand.

Laterz.

:rofl: hahahahaha

 

[Cryozombie]

One should be wary of the self-referential fallacy: the notion that an experience inherently proves its own validity. Any experience, no matter how sublime or life-changing, may unknowingly be suspect to the biases and presuppositions of the observer (whether they be personal or cultural). It is circular logic to believe something is true merely because it references itself (whether this be phenomenology or text).

*Shrug*

Like I said, we all have our own reasons for believing what we do.

I figure it dont hurt me none to believe the way I do, and the fact I am not pushing it on others, well, that means I am not hurting anyone else. When I die, if I am nothing, it wont matter anyhow... if I stand before MY god, I will probably have a lot of explaining to do... if I stand before someone elses... Im prolly screwed... So whadda do?

Again, *shrug*

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, it depends on the god in question. I mean, in some circles, you're screwed regardless of what you do, unless you're on "the list". In others, you can buy a "get outta hell free" pass at the last minute. Some go on what you did, others on what you tried to do, and some, just look at your overall score and reincarnate you accordingly.

I'm coming back as a cat. It's only fair. I work 7 days a week, haven't had a real sleep in years....cats work 5 minutes a month, sleep 12 hours a day. I mean, it's only fair. Thats it, I want to reincarnate as Garfield!

 

[7starmantis]

If we are talking about "God" and dieties....

Can the created understand the creator? Regardless of who that creator is believed to be.

7sm

 

[Seabrook]

Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!

The Bible states that God has already given us sufficient evidence of His existence.

Romans 1:20 - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

The truth is that God's love endures forever. But that same God of love, also has a zero tolerance for sin. In fact, the Bible says that when Jesus became sin on the cross, it pleased the Father to punish His Son. In referring to sin, the Bible states

• "The soul that sinneth shall surely die" (Ezekiel 18:20)
• "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)
• "The way of the transgressor is hard" (Proverbs 13:15)

The truth is that God’s wrath is our choice – it’s not what God wants but what we demand. And by rejecting Jesus' substitutionary death at Calvary for the salvation of our sins, we turn our backs to God.

However, accepting God's gift of salvation, admitting our wrongdoings, confessing Jesus as Saviour, and trusting in Him, changes everything, and you now get to live FOREVER with HIM.

Read these passages:

Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you,' says the Lord. 'They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope."

Hebrews 13:5b
"God has said, 'I will never fail you. I will never forsake you.'"

Romans 10:13 "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

• 
  Jamie Seabrook
  www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
  
  

 

[Cryozombie]

The Bible states that God has already given us sufficient evidence of His existence.

That argument doesnt hold water here... these heathens dont belive the bible... therefore any "proof" it shows... isn't.

I know these guys... God could appear in the sky and smite 90% of the population, and they would still have an excuse why that isnt "scientifically confirmable" anyhow... so... yeah. MMM. Science.

Religion: "In the beginning there was nothing. From nothing, god created the heavens and the earth"

Science: "In the Beginning there was nothing. That nothing exploded and the universe created itself"

hmm. Sound... about the same to me, except ONE has a god, the other happend for no reason. But thats what SMART folk believe.

Ok... well, lets look at another example.

Religion: "The Earth was devoid of life, so god created the creatures of the earth, and eventually, man."

Science: "The Earth was devoid of life, but life spontaniously created itself, in the form of self replicating protein, which eventually turned into humans, and about a trillion other lifeforms"

Um. Again... same? Except for God and the Happened for no reason thing?

This "Scientific" evidence is astounding! What does it all say? "WE HAVE NO ****ING CLUE, BUT I SWEAR IT WASNT GOD!"

*Please Note This Entire Post is Tounge In Cheek and not to be taken too seriously*