Christian Martial Arts Schools

[Sapper6]

Strange, I found his statement similiarly condescending, offensive, and counter-productive to martialtalks mission.





That you project onto me 'anti-christian rhetoric', I find similiarly offensive. I am not anti-Christian. I am not anti-any belief structure. I prefer clarity of thought and action.

I go to the doctor for health. I go to the mechanic to get my car serviced. I go to the market to buy food.

That some would expect to go to the Karate Studio for religious belief and practice is contradictory to the purpose of a Karate Studio, in my opinion.

he clearly stated, "we are a private, christian based dojo." i doubt there will be any unsuspecting students here. there's a pretty big difference between this and say, you getting an oil change and while you wait, being taught the book Revelations. you know what you are getting before you even start. the mere fact that he states he's a private school proves your flawed assumption of his impact on the "unsuspecting student". he's free to accept students however he desires. his mission is not monetarily driven. all he did was make that more clear to understand. how could you find that offensive? you brought up the money issue with you, "if i choose to exercise commerce with you". he clarified his intent for you.

i believe that he possesses clarity of thought and action, i just don't think you understand it. attacking people for their intent and motivation is cowardly. i'm certainly not attacking your right to criticize this man. i'm criticizing the manner in which you are doing, and the place in which you do it.

it's good to know that you are not on the martialtalk welcoming committee.

 

[Ceicei]

As I said, this is your choice, and I wish you luck with it - but you will continue to find people who have different opinions, and they are as welcome to express their opinions as you are to express your own. You will garner more support and acceptance if you accept that, than if you strike out at people whose opinions are different from your own.

Shalom.

There are groups of people who prefer to seek out those of like-mind. If that is the setting they want, then Sacred Warrior is serving that niche and giving them what they want. They are happier there.

Personally, I think there are more benefits with being in a diverse group. Diversity teaches me tolerance better and allows me to see different viewpoints that otherwise would not be present (usually) in a group with similar views. Diversity in my school is what makes me happy.

I am glad, though, that there are many different ways of teaching martial arts in just as many different settings. At least there are choices available for students.

- Ceicei

 

[bluemtn]

Same here- I prefer a diverse atmosphere. The dojang I go to is Christian based, but is open to everyone.

 

[michaeledward]

he clearly stated, "we are a private, christian based dojo." i doubt there will be any unsuspecting students here. there's a pretty big difference between this and say, you getting an oil change and while you wait, being taught the book Revelations. you know what you are getting before you even start. the mere fact that he states he's a private school proves your flawed assumption of his impact on the "unsuspecting student". he's free to accept students however he desires. his mission is not monetarily driven. all he did was make that more clear to understand. how could you find that offensive? you brought up the money issue with you, "if i choose to exercise commerce with you". he clarified his intent for you.

i believe that he possesses clarity of thought and action, i just don't think you understand it. attacking people for their intent and motivation is cowardly. i'm certainly not attacking your right to criticize this man. i'm criticizing the manner in which you are doing, and the place in which you do it.

it's good to know that you are not on the martialtalk welcoming committee.

I offered no attack to his intent or motivation, or even his belief structure. I offered an opinion that I would not participate in a Karate Studio that shared focus on religious beliefs.

Sacred Warrior then used the phrase 'cheap shots about money'. Isn't that strange that I viewed that as an attack?

I made no statements about money. I used the phrase 'commerce'. I recognize that one definition of 'commerce' means an exchange of money, there is another equally valid definition for the word, which is: "1 : social intercourse : interchange of ideas, opinions, or sentiments" (www.m-w.com)

Some would say the function of any business is to 'make money, now, and in the future'. But, even if you are private charitible foundation, a primary function will be to continue in existance. Placing limitations on who can attend is contrary to those functions. Now, maybe in Kentucky, excluding those who don't believe as you do will not limit participation into non-existance. But, it would limit me from attending.

 

[Sapper6]

I offered no attack to his intent or motivation, or even his belief structure. I offered an opinion that I would not participate in a Karate Studio that shared focus on religious beliefs.

Sacred Warrior then used the phrase 'cheap shots about money'. Isn't that strange that I viewed that as an attack?

I made no statements about money. I used the phrase 'commerce'. I recognize that one definition of 'commerce' means an exchange of money, there is another equally valid definition for the word, which is: "1 : social intercourse : interchange of ideas, opinions, or sentiments" (www.m-w.com)

Some would say the function of any business is to 'make money, now, and in the future'. But, even if you are private charitible foundation, a primary function will be to continue in existance. Placing limitations on who can attend is contrary to those functions. Now, maybe in Kentucky, excluding those who don't believe as you do will not limit participation into non-existance. But, it would limit me from attending.

ok michael. whatever you say. actually you said, "Oh, Please. The Besieged Christians. As if they are an oppressed minority in a country that is more than 85% Christian. Yet spoken with arrogance of only Christians can live on purpose, or with purpose.

he never said anything about being oppressed or besieged. what he did say is that his school provides a common link to those students of the christian faith that desire to study the arts, and in relation to the number martial arts schools in operation, there are not alot of schools out there that offer this service. somehow, you took that as saying christians are oppressed because of the lack of christian martial arts programs? that's funny.

you also stated, "I value what I pay for. If you offer a service for which no recompense is required, I will value it as if no recompense is required. Regardless of whether you think it is a commercial transaction or not, you are offering a good or service."

not real sure what you mean by that. does that mean just because he's not charging for it, it has no worth? surely not. i could teach crappy martial arts with excessive fees, but that doesn't mean my teaching necessarily worth more. value doesn't really apply here. the guy is offering a "good or service" to those who desire that specific teaching. perhaps it means nothing to you. it would mean a ton more to those it actually applied.

you accused him of being arrogant with his "living with purpose, on purpose" signature. where did he state that ONLY christians could do this? you accused him of saying that. you read an awful lot into what people type, to benefit your own side of the argument. you put words in his mouth that he clearly did not say. why?

And, your slight does nothing to support your premise that Christianity has everything to do with warriorship.

where's the disrespect? the guy was met with aggression and responded appropriately. warriorship to him probably has a different meaning to you. it doesn't make it wrong.

you seem to think you are a victim here. you find his post offensive because he advocates something you don't believe in. what a shame.

 

[michaeledward]

ok michael. whatever you say. actually you said, "Oh, Please. The Besieged Christians. As if they are an oppressed minority in a country that is more than 85% Christian. Yet spoken with arrogance of only Christians can live on purpose, or with purpose.

he never said anything about being oppressed or besieged. what he did say is that his school provides a common link to those students of the christian faith that desire to study the arts, and in relation to the number martial arts schools in operation, there are not alot of schools out there that offer this service. somehow, you took that as saying christians are oppressed because of the lack of christian martial arts programs? that's funny.

you also stated, "I value what I pay for. If you offer a service for which no recompense is required, I will value it as if no recompense is required. Regardless of whether you think it is a commercial transaction or not, you are offering a good or service."

not real sure what you mean by that. does that mean just because he's not charging for it, it has no worth? surely not. i could teach crappy martial arts with excessive fees, but that doesn't mean my teaching necessarily worth more. value doesn't really apply here. the guy is offering a "good or service" to those who desire that specific teaching. perhaps it means nothing to you. it would mean a ton more to those it actually applied.

you accused him of being arrogant with his "living with purpose, on purpose" signature. where did he state that ONLY christians could do this? you accused him of saying that. you read an awful lot into what people type, to benefit your own side of the argument. you put words in his mouth that he clearly did not say. why?

And, your slight does nothing to support your premise that Christianity has everything to do with warriorship.

where's the disrespect? the guy was met with aggression and responded appropriately. warriorship to him probably has a different meaning to you. it doesn't make it wrong.

you seem to think you are a victim here. you find his post offensive because he advocates something you don't believe in. what a shame.

Sapper6 ....

Please go back and read the initial posts. My first post was not disrespectful, nor was it an attack. By picking up the discussion in the middle, you can parse it however you wish. I believe Sacred Warrior drew first blood (and I've quoted the references in which he does so).

I notice you aren't parsing this comment (which incidentally, was made prior to the first quote of mine, you list)

Christians however don't have that same opportunity, unless of course they are content with martial sports. For those who want to synthesize their discipleship with their martial training we're the answer.

Why don't Christians have the same opportunity? Please explain to me the sentiment? What can't Christians do in Kentucky that non-Christians can?

 

[mrhnau]

Well, I am reminded of some verses in the Bible where Jesus told his disciples to sell their clothing and purchase swords. (Luke 22:36). Why else would he advise that, if not for self defense?

Even He knew that there are people out there who have intent to harm.

There are several verses that advocate defense in the scriptures (both Old and New Testaments), so I *do not believe* that Jesus Christ would be a pacifist. He understood human nature too well. There is a time for things to happen, and this also includes defense.

- Ceicei

Indeed Ceicei, hope you don't mind if I quote it a little bit, since alot of people here are not familiar with it

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"

"Nothing," they answered.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.


The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."


"That is enough," he replied.

However:

When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?"
And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

That being said, what verses advocate self defense? I'd be curious to find out... especially the new testament.

 

[michaeledward]

Thank you, mrhnau.

I thought the same thing upon seeing the quote.

But, as you can perhaps observe, were I to ask this question, it might be mis-interpreted as an 'anti-Christian attack'. Something about 'the devil being able to quote the bible for his purposes' or such.

 

[Jenna]

That being said, what verses advocate self defense? I'd be curious to find out... especially the new testament.

Hey MrH,

Yeah you quoted it above

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
--Luke 22:36
​

This is where Jesus reveals to the disciples tribulation they will certainly face (after he is gone) and so he implores them to sell their coats to purchase a sword. The typical "sword" was more akin to a dagger or the sort of short sword that was part of the standard travellers "knapsack" and used as protection from both scavenging animals and muggers. But even so, surely here is one indication maybe that Jesus sanctioned self defence??

Matthew 26:52-54 is used to reinforce the non-resistance or anti-SD concepts in the bible because of how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest.... "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

But Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place in other words at his side. He didn't say toss it out altogether. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was't Peter, don't fight or defend yourself but rather, Peter, this ain't the RIGHT TIME for the fight.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[terryl965]

Why don't Christians have the same opportunity? Please explain to me the sentiment? What can't Christians do in Kentucky that non-Christians can?

Michaeledward I believe all people have the same opportunity in life as well as in the Dojang. I also believe as a Martial Artist we should respect each others views 100%, now that does not mean we have to agree, just respect them. LIfe is so funny and here is a story about religion for all to ponder.

A Southern Baptist family living in Texas only child meets a service man on leave from the war, went out a few times while he was down there and had a great time, a year later they where married by the justice of the peace. Two weeks later she finds out him to be Jewish and not a Southern Baptist, her family and friend was in shock by this and the young lady mother told her as long as she was in love with him that was the most important aspect of there marriage, well to make a long story short they live together side by side for 56 years until the man died, the woman had five childern, out of the five 1 is Jewish, 2 are catholics and the others are chrstians. The kickers is they are one big happy family, they can see and understand each other views on religion and have respect for each other. Just so everybody understands here that family is my own, today I'm still Jewish, my wife is catholic and my three son's just got done with thier stuff to be accepted into the catholic church we all attend. My family is whole because we all can accept each others views about religion and the take on it as well. The church accept me for who I'm and they even made me an honory Knight for all my work inside the church.
If it was one thing my parents tought us it is not about the religion itself, it is about the spiritaul journey for all that has there beliefs and hold them close to there hearts.

My only guess here is weather each of you can respect each other takes on this manner of a christian base dojang and see the biggest picture out there, the ability for people to come together and train in the Martial Arts and also be train in the spiritual Art as well, of there choosen.

Terry Lee Stoker:asian:

 

[bluemtn]

Thanks for sharing that, Terry. I'd rep you, but I did in another thread!

 

[terryl965]

Thanks for sharing that, Terry. I'd rep you, but I did in another thread!

Thank you tkdgirl I was not looking for reps. just trying to get people to see, we all are brother of faith in one way or another. The path we lead will bring as all to the Kingdom of God. To stand next to him in true enlightment well after the bone turn to ashes.
Terry

 

[mrhnau]

Hey MrH,

Yeah you quoted it above

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
--Luke 22:36
​

This is where Jesus reveals to the disciples tribulation they will certainly face (after he is gone) and so he implores them to sell their coats to purchase a sword. The typical "sword" was more akin to a dagger or the sort of short sword that was part of the standard travellers "knapsack" and used as protection from both scavenging animals and muggers. But even so, surely here is one indication maybe that Jesus sanctioned self defence??

Matthew 26:52-54 is used to reinforce the non-resistance or anti-SD concepts in the bible because of how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest.... "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

But Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place in other words at his side. He didn't say toss it out altogether. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was't Peter, don't fight or defend yourself but rather, Peter, this ain't the RIGHT TIME for the fight.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

thanks Jenna

Is there a time for violence? I believe so... personally I can't see Jesus hitting anyone, or killing anyone. I look at the history of the church, the number of martyrs for the faith, how they died violent deaths for the sake of God and their faith. Jesus "did not say a word in his defense", almost all of the apostles died violent deaths. In the New Testament, I don't see alot of Christians defending themselves. Was it happening and just not written in the Bible? Perhaps...

One of the only violent episodes in the early Church I can recall is the death of Ananias and Saphira (sp), but Peter did not directly kill them himself, rather by God. My memory might be dull though

At what point should a christian defend themselves?

 

[michaeledward]

Why don't Christians have the same opportunity? Please explain to me the sentiment? What can't Christians do in Kentucky that non-Christians can?

Michaeledward I believe all people have the same opportunity in life as well as in the Dojang. I also believe as a Martial Artist we should respect each others views 100%, now that does not mean we have to agree, just respect them. LIfe is so funny and here is a story about religion for all to ponder.

A Southern Baptist family living in Texas only child meets a service man on leave from the war, went out a few times while he was down there and had a great time, a year later they where married by the justice of the peace. Two weeks later she finds out him to be Jewish and not a Southern Baptist, her family and friend was in shock by this and the young lady mother told her as long as she was in love with him that was the most important aspect of there marriage, well to make a long story short they live together side by side for 56 years until the man died, the woman had five childern, out of the five 1 is Jewish, 2 are catholics and the others are chrstians. The kickers is they are one big happy family, they can see and understand each other views on religion and have respect for each other. Just so everybody understands here that family is my own, today I'm still Jewish, my wife is catholic and my three son's just got done with thier stuff to be accepted into the catholic church we all attend. My family is whole because we all can accept each others views about religion and the take on it as well. The church accept me for who I'm and they even made me an honory Knight for all my work inside the church.
If it was one thing my parents tought us it is not about the religion itself, it is about the spiritaul journey for all that has there beliefs and hold them close to there hearts.

My only guess here is weather each of you can respect each other takes on this manner of a christian base dojang and see the biggest picture out there, the ability for people to come together and train in the Martial Arts and also be train in the spiritual Art as well, of there choosen.

Terry Lee Stoker:asian:

Terry, Sacred Warrior said that Christians in Kentucky do not have the same opportunities in Kentucky as non-Christians.

And if one is not inclined toward our spirituality there are many schools out there to choose from. Christians however don't have that same opportunity, unless of course they are content with martial sports. For those who want to synthesize their discipleship with their martial training we're the answer.

He implied my statements were 'cheap shots about money'. And Sapper6 piled on, accusing me of anti-Christian bias.

I wonder why my name is called out specifically in your call for mutual respect, and theirs are not?

 

[Sapper6]

Terry, Sacred Warrior said that Christians in Kentucky do not have the same opportunities in Kentucky as non-Christians.



He implied my statements were 'cheap shots about money'. And Sapper6 piled on, accusing me of anti-Christian bias.

I wonder why my name is called out specifically in your call for mutual respect, and theirs are not?

the opportunities he is most likely referring to are a christian dojo atmosphere. they are few and far between. perhaps he can clarify that.

and you are correct. you are guilty of anti-christian bias.

 

[terryl965]

Terry, Sacred Warrior said that Christians in Kentucky do not have the same opportunities in Kentucky as non-Christians.



He implied my statements were 'cheap shots about money'. And Sapper6 piled on, accusing me of anti-Christian bias.

I wonder why my name is called out specifically in your call for mutual respect, and theirs are not?

Michaeledwald it was not pointed to you directly, it is to all about mutual respect if you feel that way sorry, I just took a piece from one post to tag off of. It was not suppose to offend anybody and I really do not understand how anybody could be offended from a story about my family, I guess I could be.
At any rate I can see this is a dead issue from alot of so called Martial Artist, I wish I had a magic wand and could make everybody see the light at the end of the tunnel.

My deepest regrets that you see this as a personal attack on you or anybody else on this board.

So here goes as all of our Marttial Artist(I mean all of us in this thread) can we have mutual respect for each other views while we may dis-agree with each one opinion.
Thanks and Sorry to those I offended.
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[mrhnau]

We're a private Christian based dojo that goes beyond mere punch-kick drills. We are very seerious about exploring warriorship and its implications in todays society with an emphasis on Biblical morals and ethics. Our training requires not only physical study, but spiritual study and action to support that study.

If you're interested and in the Northern Kentucky area contact: [email protected]

Living with Purpose, on Purpose,
Jake

Hi Jake... Bringing this back to topic a little bit... I think its a cool alternative. I tried looking up your web page. I found one, but the "enter here" is not working. What exactly do you teach? I noticed "ninpo" in your email address, so I was a bit curious...

 

[terryl965]

Ok, I'm at fault for mentioning certain people names on this thread so here goes I apologies if I offended anybody.

So here is my call out to everybody involved in this thread we need to respect each others views about this very touchy subject, as we all our Martial Artist we know the value of respect towards ech other, even when we do not agree with some one elses opinion.

The last thing is the origional topics is about one of our members opening a christian base dojo, I hope the individual has great success in the endevour they are about to take part in.

Thank you all for the wonderful time on this subject and I hope we can see this person views and wish them well?
Terry

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Ladies, Gentlemen, and the odd non-evolved Simian that may be reading:

While I am not a member of the faith indicated here, I'll add my 2 cents. Some people like to be around like-minded individuals. There are numerous faith oriented martial arts groups around the world. The great majority of them are positive influences on their members and their local communities.

If you do not wish to join, then don't. There is really no need to negatively point out your problems with them. The OP (original poster) is offering a service to a group who may otherwise not train. He is attempting to combine 2 great loves of his life (his faith and his training) and share it. More power to him for that.

There is no need, nor productive contribution to this site in anyone going on a tear about how they disagree with him. This is not the study. This is an area to advertise a service, which the OP has done.

I suggest taking the "right/wrong" stuff to the appropriate area. I can't see any rules broken, or even nudged by the original OP. The only thing this threads decent into disapproval can do, is drive off the OP, and any like minded. I may not follow his faith, but this board, and many others would be a lonelier place with out their input.

 

[Kreth]

Christian or not... looks like someone who didn't get promoted fast enough for his taste and founded his own style...

Edit: I'll stand by that statement, having just read the OP's profile and noting his rank of "9th dan, Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu"

:bs: