Martial art A vs. Martial Art B... here we go again...and again... and again...
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Do you really think that's true? I mean, you can look at the student body of some martial arts vs others and see a clear distinction between the skill levels of one over the other after a comparable amount of time training.
Let's be real, here. While no amount of structured curriculum can help an unmotivated student learn, it's conversely true that even a motivated student can't succeed if the curriculum is flawed. If it takes an exceptional student to make a system work, that's a problem, in my opinion.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
True, but what you are saying is more to do with the way the art is taught and not the art itself. There are plenty of MA clubs out there with flawed material in ALL martial arts. I think the point being made was "its the martial art not the martial artist" which I agree with wholeheartedly providing the art is taught properly, the art cant be held to blame because some instructors/clubs dont teach it correctly. I think tkd is an excellent example of this. Ive met tkdists who would be hard pressed to fend off an elderly woman but Ive also met tkdists who I definetly wouldnt want to run into in a dark alley. They both do the same art only difference is one was taught properly and the other wasnt and thats not tkd's fault.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Wouldn't you agree that the art and how it's taught are part and parcel? I mean, inherent to _ing _un are the teaching methods. Inherent to BJJ are the teaching methods. Inherent to Karate are the teaching methods.
Let me put it this way... if you consider your art to be exclusive in that only a very few, regardless of effort, can excel, I would except that. Not everyone can be a nuclear physicist. Right? It's expected taht only a few will get it. A handful.
But if your intent is to teach people self defense, and only a small percentage of the students in your style can actually defend themselves, that's a problem for me.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I personally dont know of any martial arts where only a small percentage of students can defend themselves. I think what Im saying is that if an art is taught properly it is the artist not the art. Tkd, karate , bjj ,kung fu,haokido etc etc are all great for self defence if taught properly. If not taught properly that is not the fault of the art. I liken it to tradesman, you can get a great carpenter or a very ordinary carpenter and the difference is inherently who they did their apprenticeship under, the trade itself works properly but like anything in life if not taught correctly it will be less useful. I have seen many very ordinary martial artists from all the different ma's but Im not about to say they all dont work just because of this minority. The best advice with ANY martial art is find a good school, it doesnt matter what art you choose, if you dont find a good school it will result in a poor martial artist. Normal school education is also no different, when I moved recently I sent my daughter to a very ordinary school (unbeknownst to me at the time as i was new in the area), their facilities were poor, the teachers were unmotivated and the way they taught the curriculum left a lot to be desired and in very little time her grades dropped drastically. I then moved her to another school just up the road which was of a much higher standard alround and despite the fact that they are teaching the exact same curriculum, with good teachers, facilities etc her grades improved overnight. No different to MA's in my opinion, a good school gets good results but there will always be bad schools out there.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Frankly, I think that it's a cop out to say that if something is taught "correctly" then it's the student. Of course, that's true, but to take your tradesman analogy, there are martial arts alleging to train carpenters, but teach them biology classes. If your program consistently produces carpenters who can't build things with wood, it's the program, not the students who are at fault. Blaming the students is a copout, even if you do manage to produce a few students who are exceptional.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I dont blame students. I believe if something is taught correctly it will be of use to any student. The problem with martial arts is that I could go and rent out a floor space at the shop up the road from me tomorrow and start "ralph's kenpo" and I could hand out some letter box drops and market my new business sparing no expense. Within 2 weeks I could have 50 students and be making good money. The only problem is that I have no training whatsovever in kenpo and dont know the first thing about it. Anyhow, 6 months down the track my business could be thriving and there would be all these very poorly trained kenpo students walking around fresh from "ralph's kenpo". In this example it is unfair for the art of kenpo to get a bad rap because there is a poor school/instructor out there. Im sure kenpo is a great art and is very effective but like all arts there will always be people out there who will try and take advantage of an art's popularity and that is not the art's fault.
Omar B
Senior Master
This "Ralph's Kenpo" is intriguing to me and I would like to sign up to your dojo.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
When Ralph's Kenpo becomes so pervasive that it is the rule and not the exception, there is a systemic problem with the art and I'd argue that the style is broken, not the students. Once again, I'm just saying that I just don't agree that it's the artist not the art. In many cases, the "artist" is a motivated, talented athlete learning crap from a crappy instructor in a broken program.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
sounds good. Bring a friend along for a free visit. Just give me a few weeks to watch some instructional dvd's so I can try to wing my way through it. I suppose I wont lack that much more credibility than a lot of the dojos Ive seen around lately. Now what colour uniform do I need to teach kenpo..........................?
Omar B
Senior Master
Wait? Steve, did you just call Ralph's Kenpo crap? I have you know you are talking about my style and my instructor man! Don't let me come open a can of RK on you!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
LOL. Okay. I give up. 
Your kenpo is too much for me.
Your kenpo is too much for me.ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I totally agree with your last sentence. I just believe it happens in all arts. It also depends what the student seeks. For example if a student wants to go to the olympics for tkd then they will require a very different tkd club to someone looking at tkd as a means of defending themselves on the street. Neither club is necessarilly wrong, they just cater to different mindsets within the same art. Which again comes back to the importance of finding a good school in whichever art the practitioner chooses.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
The irony is that what just played out here is exactly what happens in the real world. Unfortunately out there somewhere there is a version of 'ralph's kenpo', 'ralph's tkd', ralph's mma gym', 'ralph's bjj' and the list goes on and on. And these all give the true essence of the ma a bad name. If someone asks me if tkd is a good art (for instance) all I can tell them is of course it is but make sure you find a good school and my response would be the same for any art. Now its time to get back to my martiala arts franchises lol.
Omar B
Senior Master
LOL. Okay. I give up.
Damn right RK is too much for you. I guess you heard the story about the guy who needs a machine to go to the bathroom.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
sorry to keep harping on this but it is an interesting topic. I feel that popularity is a bad thing for any MA based on where you said "When Ralph's Kenpo becomes so pervasive that it is the rule and not the exception, there is a systematic problem with the art" I agree there is a problem, but not necessarilly with the art. Unfortunately when people want to make quick cash out of MA's they will choose a popular art to get people through the door. Thanks to the recent surge in the popularity in BJJ I now have 4 or 5 clubs within a 10 minute drive of my house (and I only live in suburban australia) and a mate of mine who does BJJ told me one of them is very good with a good rep but the others are just belt factories and he doubts the instructors are even legit. So based on that, credible BJJ clubs in my area are the exception not the rule but that certainly does not affect my opinion that BJJ is very credible and is extremely effective. Unfortunately karate and tkd also suffer from this popularity and with larger numbers of participants there is eventually going to become more shonky clubs.
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This is unfortunately what happens when money becomes a driving force with any system. Quality and standards are lowered and eventually the full on McDojo is is full swing. Really it is quite sad!
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
It sure is. But in reality it is to be expected as its what happens to most things in life unfortunately, someone has a good product so others come along and figure out how to best mass produce it to make money. Sadly though, the product suffers. The positive is that the original and best is usually still out there but it just takes a little more shopping around to find it. I dont hate all food just because of mcdonalds and the same can be applied to martial arts I believe.
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