Lost Techniques

celtic_crippler said:
IThat's interesting about Jay T. Will being related to the Tracy's. I'll have to bring that up to my instructor. The president of the EKKS, Brint Berry, studied under Jay T. Will and was also under LTKKA at one time.
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Now that I think about it for a moment Kalicombat hit the nail on the head with his statement. Do some more research on your lineage. Check various web sites of their curriculum vs. your own curriculum. I'm not trying to put you down but I think you may need to check out your history more indepth.
 
.

All the techniques and forms in EPAK are included in the syllabus to my understanding (Parker Forms 1-8, standard techniques, etc) but has been added to over the years to include things taught by Jay T. Will and the UKKA as well as some of Larry Tatum's techniques
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Celtic, Having trained at Mr. Tatum's Pasadena school I was unaware he had any "new" techniques. As to my understanding Mr. Tatum teaches the 24 technique cirriculum, EPAK.
 
Not to offend anyone, but I didn't post here to get involved in politics. I don't believe politics have any place in Kenpo and only serve to detract from the advancement of the system.

I have no reason to doubt Master Berry's training nor do I have any reason to doubt that of my immediate instructor or my own skills for that matter. I've seen both of their credentials and on top of that, really could care less as to whether Jay T. Will studied under the Tracy's or not. It's not that important to me at this point. The past belongs in the past. I'm more concerned with the evolution of the system at this point. That is where I prefer to focus my energies. Feel free to pursue your own agenda.

I've been more than generous in answering your questions concerning my training and background. I did not register in these forums to play political games with you. If you so wish, simply ignore my responses, otherwise how about getting back to the subject of this thread.
 
Kalicombat said:
Jay T. Will was a blackbelt under Al Tracy. His association, or at least the one that he founded, teaches the Tracy curriculum, at least it did a few years ago. Celtic, what curriclum does the AKKO teach? Is it EPAK or Tracy's. Also, how many techniques per belt level?

Gary C.
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According to the Family Tree of Blackbelts that was published with Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, Volume I, Jay T. Will is listed as both a student of Mr. Parker and the Tracys. Seems that he studied under both, but in which order or whether or not he went back and forth more than once, I cannot tell from the Tree. Of course the Tree doesn't indicate what system or program he ultimately settled on or whether he made his own changes.

Al Tracy's website also lists Mr. Will as 8th Degree Black Belt in their own family tree.
 
Flying Crane said:
According to the Family Tree of Blackbelts that was published with Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, Volume I, Jay T. Will is listed as both a student of Mr. Parker and the Tracys. Seems that he studied under both, but in which order or whether or not he went back and forth more than once, I cannot tell from the Tree. Of course the Tree doesn't indicate what system or program he ultimately settled on or whether he made his own changes.

Al Tracy's website also lists Mr. Will as 8th Degree Black Belt in their own family tree.
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Jay was a Tracy black belt.
 
celtic_crippler said:
I have no reason to doubt Master Berry's training nor do I have any reason to doubt that of my immediate instructor or my own skills for that matter. I've seen both of their credentials and on top of that, really could care less as to whether Jay T. Will studied under the Tracy's or not. It's not that important to me at this point..
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No one is or have been attacking you or your training. I have no beef with you nor do I care to get into any keyboard wars. I don't think that anyone here wants to play any political games either.

The only question I have is about Mr. Berry in general. There was a lengthy thread about him on here somewhere and he actually even registered but never commented or posted once. It appears as he has been with many many organizations over the years. My main question is the man claims an 8th degree and he is only a few years older than me. Who promotes him? How does he put in enough seasoning in his rank to advance to another rank? Be weary under your lineage and ask questions.
:asian:
 
jfarnsworth said:
No one is or have been attacking you or your training. I have no beef with you nor do I care to get into any keyboard wars. I don't think that anyone here wants to play any political games either.

The only question I have is about Mr. Berry in general. There was a lengthy thread about him on here somewhere and he actually even registered but never commented or posted once. It appears as he has been with many many organizations over the years. My main question is the man claims an 8th degree and he is only a few years older than me. Who promotes him? How does he put in enough seasoning in his rank to advance to another rank? Be weary under your lineage and ask questions.
:asian:
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i wonder if your beef is with Berry or celtic crippler...? dunno. kinda sounds like your taking your dislike for Mr. Berry out on CC, a contributing member of this forum. i think if you got a problem, you need to take it up with the person you've got a problem with, not a student. how ****ing mature is that?


i see alot of mistakes happening here in this thread. the biggest one being that celtic_crippler mentioned that Brint Berry is in his lineage. i don't believe that anyone will take this guy's posts at MT serious, just because of this fact. is it fair? nope. but it's the American Kenpo politics bull **** in it's finest.

you EPAK people are real honorable.
 
I don't have any beef with anyone. I don't know Mr. Berry whatsoever and I wasn't trying to take anything out on Celtic_Crippler.

Oringally posted by Sapper6
..how ****ing mature is that?
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Um, whatever.

If you seen one of my other posts I did say that I gave him a tip of the hat for coming up with new ideas on techniques. Whether you seen it or not :idunno: I could care less. I don't post anywhere near as much as I used to because of the ******it. Now Celtic_Crippler made reference to the techniques in his curriculum and so on. I was pointing out questions to so some claims. It would have been nice if Mr. Berry would have contributed to the thread when he registered but hey what can you do. Lastly, I'm concerned with my own training and no one elses.
 
jfarnsworth said:
I don't have any beef with anyone. I don't know Mr. Berry whatsoever and I wasn't trying to take anything out on Celtic_Crippler.


Um, whatever.

If you seen one of my other posts I did say that I gave him a tip of the hat for coming up with new ideas on techniques. Whether you seen it or not :idunno: I could care less. I don't post anywhere near as much as I used to because of the ******it. Now Celtic_Crippler made reference to the techniques in his curriculum and so on. I was pointing out questions to so some claims. It would have been nice if Mr. Berry would have contributed to the thread when he registered but hey what can you do. Lastly, I'm concerned with my own training and no one elses.
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my bad...if i'm mistaken, but from an outside point of view, i sense a little hostility toward crippler for being associated with Berry. Mr Berry hasn't posted in this thread, so of course, it would have "been nice" for him to answer your concerns. if you're that worried about it, you should call him up.

celtic_crippler's techniques he's described and the manner of which they were taught to him seem to be held against him, simply because of the man that taught them to him.

so what if we all feel they don't work. it doesn't matter to us.

your statement in bold, i believe in that. i think that you do as well. if only we practiced that statement.
 
Sapper6 said:
i wonder if your beef is with Berry or celtic crippler...? dunno. kinda sounds like your taking your dislike for Mr. Berry out on CC, a contributing member of this forum. i think if you got a problem, you need to take it up with the person you've got a problem with, not a student. how ****ing mature is that?


i see alot of mistakes happening here in this thread. the biggest one being that celtic_crippler mentioned that Brint Berry is in his lineage. i don't believe that anyone will take this guy's posts at MT serious, just because of this fact. is it fair? nope. but it's the American Kenpo politics bull **** in it's finest.

you EPAK people are real honorable.
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I'm sorry sir but I must take issue with your assertion. While it is true there were questions about the gentleman's lineage, I believe they were generated by previous threads and discussions on the topic, as well as the posters own interpretations of what he studies which appears to be limited in his own understanding.

Then to cast such a broad brush and suggest that all EPAk people are some how "political" because of a disagreement about techniques and lineage questions is, to say the least, inappropriate.

Personally I am in the Ed Parker Sr. lineage and have his son in mine, however I could care less what anyone's lineage is when it comes to discussing the arts. I know many with "legitimate" lineage who are as ill-informed and incompetent as they come. At least as far as most of us here are concerned, the poster will have to live and die at his own keyboard defending his own position without his instructor or the lack thereof, being a factor one way or another.

Politics? Yes, and what art doesn't, but please direct your inquiries, suggestions, and concerns toward individuals and not an entire board in a more courtious and productive manner. It is illconceived to come to an Ed Parker kenpo forum and disparage all of its members and expect to remain cordial and polite in continued postings.

Thanks a lot sir.
 
Flying Crane said:
Doc, did Mr. Will study at all with Mr. Parker? The Tree lists him as a Parker Blackbelt. Is this incorrect?
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I was there when the tree was created, and in some cases I actually edited and removed some people and added others. If you notice J.T. Will is listed in more than one place. Mr. Parker always co-promoted black belts with their instructor. This is why everyone claims to be a "Parker Black Belt." In a sense they are but most are actually second generation and beyond. On many occasions they "dropped" their instructor and "claimed" only Parker as their teacher without truly studying with him. As an example, Larry Tatum promoted a large number of well known black belts before he quit the IKKA, however almost universally they all claim to be Ed Parker students. Look at the tree and all of the first generation students and in most cases they are listed only under Ed Parker in the middle of the chart. But even that is not a 100 percent tell. Some actually did switch to first generation so are listed alone, others did the same but because of the prominance of their actual teacher, had to be listed in both places. I myself started outside of the Kenpo Lineage under Ark Wong where Parker also studied and then switched, so even I switched Chinese generations so it can get pretty convoluted. Dennis Conatser did the same but is also only listed under Parker as an example.

Another way to check is to look at the diplomas. If someone claims to be a Parker student look at their diploma. If Ed Parker's signature is on the right, he claimed them as students. If's its only on the left, he quietly did not and their instructor signed on the right. J.T. Will was actually a Tracy student and as such is listed on the tree twice. Once under the Tracy's and once under Parker indicating the previous mentioned "co-promotion" status.
 
Doc said:
I was there when the tree was created, and in some cases I actually edited and removed some people and added others. If you notice J.T. Will is listed in more than one place. Mr. Parker always co-promoted black belts with their instructor. This is why everyone claims to be a "Parker Black Belt." In a sense they are but most are actually second generation and beyond. On many occasions they "dropped" their instructor and "claimed" only Parker as their teacher without truly studying with him. As an example, Larry Tatum promoted a large number of well known black belts before he quit the IKKA, however almost universally they all claim to be Ed Parker students. Look at the tree and all of the first generation students and in most cases they are listed only under Ed Parker in the middle of the chart. But even that is not a 100 percent tell. Some actually did switch to first generation so are listed alone, others did the same but because of the prominance of their actual teacher, had to be listed in both places. I myself started outside of the Kenpo Lineage under Ark Wong where Parker also studied and then switched, so even I switched Chinese generations so it can get pretty convoluted. Dennis Conatser did the same but is also only listed under Parker as an example.

Another way to check is to look at the diplomas. If someone claims to be a Parker student look at their diploma. If Ed Parker's signature is on the right, he claimed them as students. If's its only on the left, he quietly did not and their instructor signed on the right. J.T. Will was actually a Tracy student and as such is listed on the tree twice. Once under the Tracy's and once under Parker indicating the previous mentioned "co-promotion" status.
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Gotcha. I did notice his name in both places, along with footnotes explaining that he switched from second to first generation, and also from first to second generation. From that, I assumed he had actually studied with both, but in what order I couldn't tell.

Given that Tracy's website listed him as 8th degree with them, that is an indicator of a long-term relation and commitment so I sort of inferred that he was at least primarily Tracy's student.

Thanks for the clarification.
 
Flying Crane said:
Gotcha. I did notice his name in both places, along with footnotes explaining that he switched from second to first generation, and also from first to second generation. From that, I assumed he had actually studied with both, but in what order I couldn't tell.

Given that Tracy's website listed him as 8th degree with them, that is an indicator of a long-term relation and commitment so I sort of inferred that he was at least primarily Tracy's student.
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Correct sir.
 
jfarnsworth said:
No one is or have been attacking you or your training. I have no beef with you nor do I care to get into any keyboard wars. I don't think that anyone here wants to play any political games either.

The only question I have is about Mr. Berry in general. There was a lengthy thread about him on here somewhere and he actually even registered but never commented or posted once. It appears as he has been with many many organizations over the years. My main question is the man claims an 8th degree and he is only a few years older than me. Who promotes him? How does he put in enough seasoning in his rank to advance to another rank? Be weary under your lineage and ask questions.
:asian:
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First off let me state this: I'm here to learn. I live in the South Eastern U.S. and there ain't a lot of Kenpo in this neck of the woods. I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know it all. Far from it. That's why I came to this forum as it was a reccomended resource.

I've trained with Mr. Berry three times in the 7 years I've studied Kenpo (this time anyway, I started studying initially back in 90 when in the US Air Force but could not find a school when I was discharged and came back home.) As far as I know he's been studying since he could walk. Literally.

So that would explain his experience (over 30+ years). He has never stopped training since he started. He lives it. The EKKS now has approximately 20+ affiliated schools and all the senior black belts voted to promote him to 8th (I was around for that) unknown to Mr. Berry at the time. He didn't know until the board told him of the promotion. I know he's done a lot for the art of Kenpo in spreading it where ever he goes. I know he developed the Hostile Combat Course for the Army while serving as an officer. I know he loves the art. But that's about all I know. I know the man knows his stuff from what I've experienced. My immediate instructor is a man named Wade Wilbourn who is also talented.

I know Mr. Berry has had issues with others in the Kenpo community before, but I don't know the details. I really don't care either. I just want to learn as much about the system and the art as possible before my time on this planet is over. I will listen to anyone with anything productive to say. I'm not here to wave a banner for any organization and get involved with "who is better because..." blah, blah, blah. There is way too much knowlege out there for me to get bogged down in politics. That was my point. No feelings were hurt, I just felt I should make my position clear.

I'm not here for flame wars. My motto is: No Politics-Know Kenpo.
 
Doc said:
I'm sorry sir but I must take issue with your assertion. While it is true there were questions about the gentleman's lineage, I believe they were generated by previous threads and discussions on the topic, as well as the posters own interpretations of what he studies which appears to be limited in his own understanding.

Then to cast such a broad brush and suggest that all EPAk people are some how "political" because of a disagreement about techniques and lineage questions is, to say the least, inappropriate.

Personally I am in the Ed Parker Sr. lineage and have his son in mine, however I could care less what anyone's lineage is when it comes to discussing the arts. I know many with "legitimate" lineage who are as ill-informed and incompetent as they come. At least as far as most of us here are concerned, the poster will have to live and die at his own keyboard defending his own position without his instructor or the lack thereof, being a factor one way or another.

Politics? Yes, and what art doesn't, but please direct your inquiries, suggestions, and concerns toward individuals and not an entire board in a more courtious and productive manner. It is illconceived to come to an Ed Parker kenpo forum and disparage all of its members and expect to remain cordial and polite in continued postings.

Thanks a lot sir.
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take issue with it, that's your right. should i have narrowed down my statement...? maybe, but the majority of the EPAK people i have come into contact with, both on forums and in person share this attitude. albeit, an interesting observation on my part is that this type of egotistical mindset isn't coming from the EPAK seniors, but rather, their students. i just would have figured the seniors would have instilled a little more humility into their students.

very true, that i've never heard anything derogatory coming from yourself, Mr. Kelly, LaBounty, Mills, Tatum or any of the other more knowledgable people in the AK community. again, i hear it from the students, black belt students. i just wonder why.

It is illconceived to come to an Ed Parker kenpo forum and disparage all of its members and expect to remain cordial and polite in continued postings.
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i'm sorry, but i've seen more egotistical boastful conversation on this board than anywhere else. i don't expect cordialness or polite continued postings. i would have expected that a long time ago, but not toward myself, but amongst yourselves as American Kenpo students.

i will try not to make such a "blanket statement" in the future.

my apologies for taking this thread even more off topic.
 
The reason why you probably see these problems as you put it is because there are many Kenpoists here under various different organizations, lineages, groups, indepedents, affiliations, etc. I haven't seen any other board that has more kenpoists in it. To each his own with ideas and whatnot. As for agendas :idunno: there are a few bad apples in any style.
 
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