Kenpo Forms

[tigdra]

Marlon that is what I said, it wouldn’t be practical to learn an infinite amount of forms especially when you get the same concepts from techniques. A concept is a concept truthfully it only needs to be defined once, but if someone likes they could repeat a variation or another example of the same concept. Fire burns, this is a concept you really don’t need to burn your hand on the stove more than once to learn that, well some kids it take two times. But it is that knowledge that fire burns that makes your brain work and say let me not get too close to it next time. The mind can take a concept and expand upon it without needing to be spoon fed. After you get burned you don’t need someone to be there to tell you “see burning yourself hurts, so don’t get close to it”, you fear pain and learn not to get close to it. The same goes with any concept your mind can think for itself, if and only if you make it important enough for your brain to work. The lazy way is easy “Timmy now that you know what 1+1 is now what is 1+1+1” response “I don’t know”. Timmy is thinking about Nintendo not math, he really doesn’t care to learn, he is comfortable being spoon fed. Question everything and have your own thoughts on every subject, even if your incorrect you will eventually get more out of it

Marlon did you not read my response in regards to kicking? I agree with you kicking high isn’t good in a fight but the ability to kick high = less percentage of accidents as well as faster and stronger kicks to waist and below kicks.

 

[marlon]

Marlon that is what I said, it wouldn’t be practical to learn an infinite amount of forms especially when you get the same concepts from techniques. A concept is a concept truthfully it only needs to be defined once, but if someone likes they could repeat a variation or another example of the same concept. Fire burns, this is a concept you really don’t need to burn your hand on the stove more than once to learn that, well some kids it take two times. But it is that knowledge that fire burns that makes your brain work and say let me not get too close to it next time. The mind can take a concept and expand upon it without needing to be spoon fed. After you get burned you don’t need someone to be there to tell you “see burning yourself hurts, so don’t get close to it”, you fear pain and learn not to get close to it. The same goes with any concept your mind can think for itself, if and only if you make it important enough for your brain to work. The lazy way is easy “Timmy now that you know what 1+1 is now what is 1+1+1” response “I don’t know”. Timmy is thinking about Nintendo not math, he really doesn’t care to learn, he is comfortable being spoon fed. Question everything and have your own thoughts on every subject, even if your incorrect you will eventually get more out of it

Marlon did you not read my response in regards to kicking? I agree with you kicking high isn’t good in a fight but the ability to kick high = less percentage of accidents as well as faster and stronger kicks to waist and below kicks.

ok so too many forms..i can see your point. as for kicking though, i dso not think that the ability to kick high has those benefits. Flexibilty can add to overall health but not more. Many chinese forms focus on "martial spirit" rather than practical fighting application. But, then again there is nothing wrong with that, is there.

back to forms. not every student will question early in thier training the things that will make the kempo forms redundant...sk has very different forms from ak...so they do serve the function of re enforcement of things that may not be picked up by other studentsd the way you have. almost a paradox, the redundancy is necessary until the student realizes they are not necessary through the work they put into the forms and training...

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[tigdra]

ok so too many forms..i can see your point. as for kicking though, i dso not think that the ability to kick high has those benefits. Flexibilty can add to overall health but not more. Many chinese forms focus on "martial spirit" rather than practical fighting application. But, then again there is nothing wrong with that, is there.

back to forms. not every student will question early in thier training the things that will make the kempo forms redundant...sk has very different forms from ak...so they do serve the function of re enforcement of things that may not be picked up by other studentsd the way you have. almost a paradox, the redundancy is necessary until the student realizes they are not necessary through the work they put into the forms and training...

respectfully,
Marlon

You my not think that flexibility has those benefits, and it's your choice to ignore facts; no one is telling you what to believe, you have the right.

Back to the forms , I believe I made it clear that I was including tracy's and parker's kenpo. It is a shame tt I have not been exposed to enough shaolin kenpo to be able to comment. As for the forms I still feel that some things aren't needed and specifically in regards to the style of kenpo which we have been talking about, the forms in my opinion do nothing that our techniques can't do.

 

[tigdra]

this is in response to tigdra about forms the forms that you know are not epak forms and if you knew epak long form 4 and did it with speed and power with proper timing then you would definitely get a great workout from it for your muscles and breath. it all depends on how YOU train it and how you were taught it when it comes to showing you new things. the forms in epak are the encyclopedia of the system and show you man things the techniques do not by themselves and i am referring to the motion kenpo for you doc supporters. if you wanna learn plenty about the forms check out the huk planas series for kenpo forms you will not find a better forms teacher out there.
later
Jason

This one is just for jaybacca

Well even if epak forms were only in epak then I would still continue with my question. The forms are made up of the techniques and since your talking about "motion kenpo" the theory is that epak kenpo is made up of certain theories of motion that can be infinatly arranged to overwhelm an individual. If epak techniques teach you these concepts, following your theme of “doc supporters”, and the concepts are constantly being repeated then what use is to repeat them yet again in a form. Why in a conceptual art that teaches theories of motion through its techniques would you need forms that are identical to the techniques you have already learned. I have the huk planas dvd’s thanks.

 

[marlon]

I never said that flexability did not have health benefits, did i?
anywho, i have re read this thread and did my best to put aside any knee jerk reactions i may have had. To be fair most kempo forms do not contain the kempo self defense techniques, the higher forms include leg sweeps from the ground, jumping kicks and challenging stances and a generally different flavour than the numbered self defense techniques. Therefore i think i can get a much more varied insight and trainig from my forms than you seem to see in the epak forms. So, i am coming from a much diffeent place than you are. The pinan forms are really not kempo at all and perhaps do not belong in the system, even kempo-ized. The forms i enjoy the most are the animal based forms and the ones i really 'get into' are the ones from the founders and top masters of the chow lineage kempo. Yang long form , Fu hok sun li from hung gar ,Naihanchi from Chkoi Mutobu, Two Man Fist set from SGM Parker, Circle of Tiger from GM Cerio, Sho tung kwa from GM Villari, Hon suki form master Willian Chun Sr. because i am looking for what they 'saw' that made them so good and creative and innovative and of course great fighters. I am looking to grow. I still would like to learn the quintessential form of Gm Parker and GM Emarado. This is my reason for learning and teaching forms. I concede that these people were really good and perhaps i can get a taste of the essence of what made them good through the forms they created or dedicated themselves to, perhaps i can grow and get as good as them or that perhaps one of my students will...it is a way to touch thier genious. Aside from this you may well be on to something...throw out the forms...work the techniques as line drills and with partners or as shadow boxing...perhaps one or two forms to teach and focus on the basics of stances and transitions and balance and timing and posture...Or go the other way and teach / study more forms based for the reasons i mentioned earlier. So in the end i think i much more agree with you than disagree. However, adding forms just for more physical challenges etc...your own criticism of forms critizes this in a way. You can jump and do gymnastics and stretching..and ..taibo and get those things without adding them to the system. I think the addition might beg the qwuestion of the self defense focus of all chow related arts...although i think Sam Kahoa went that way and used his taikwondo training to create more...athletic .. forms for his kempo. Enough rambling for me ...for now. thanks again for the provocation of thought.

Respectfully,
Marlon

BTW can anyone confirm that SGM Parker dedicated practice to his forms...do what they DID not what they said

 

[MJS]

MJS Your first point is absolutely noted. Lets say your wearing jeans and its been raining and you go to kick some guy in the head, splat, you hit the ground. I heard of your saying too, the one I heard was "if you want to kick his head, break his knee first" or "kicking his head is like punching his foot", But I also heard this one "if you can kick him with speed and power up here imagine how much faster and stronger you'll hit him down there".

Environment and target availability dictate your technique. That being said, if the ground is wet, why risk a move like a high kick? As I said, this is my preference. If someone is capable of pulling off a high kick, great. But for myself, I'd rather not put myself in an awkward position if at all possible.

Greater flexibility doesn't mean, wow I look cool, well maybe when your 6, but when your older flexibility equals a decreased probability of injury. Regardless of what height you kick you will always have 3 obstacles that hinder your speed and power.

1 Clothing: most loose fitting clothing would help your kicking and most tight fitting clothing would hinder your ability to even kick someone in the thigh

2 antagonistic muscles: When throwing a snap kick your quads contract, but a lack of flexibility in you gluts and hamstring would decrease the effectivness, speed and power of front kicks. The same holds true with the groin muscles in regards to side kicks.

3 weather: could or rainy weather obviously limit your ability to kick to your best potential, while warm weather would make it easier to kick.

Agree. So IMHO, all the more reason to be practical, especially if your life is on the line.

Your second statement I respect your thoughts. But again stating as said before seeing kenpo as an art and in such a way realizing that forms are aesthetic, then why not get the most out of a form and include movements that challenge you instead of remind you.

I well aware of the benefits of weight training, and you are absolutely right one should supplement their martial arts training with weight training. Although weight training is excellent the benefits of a challenging form are much more evident. Forms won’t just increase muscle size, they will increase muscle endurance, flexibility and cardiovascular endurance. I am not degrading weight training I am acknowledging the benefits of a good form.

I suppose one thing we should be looking at is...if a change is made, is it going to take away from the original intent of the form? I honestly don't know, as I really don't make changes to the forms I do.

If I were just doing defense then I would severally encourage individuals to take up stretching, weight training, circuit training, running and body conditioning exercises.

If I were teaching defense plus a progressive challenging form structure then I would only suggest weight training to enhance one’s abilities.

So my thoughts stay they same if I wanted to put forms into a system then I would want it to be of more use than just aesthetic, and whatever more that may be I would want it to enhance my skills in a new way rather than a repetitive way, parker student really can identify with this due to the fact that parker acknowledge original kenpo as repetitive. Muscle confusion is a true concept and plateau effects do hinder individual’s results, progressive complex forms would fill this void by introducing new but more importantly awkward movements which would wake up new muscles. You don’t need forms for self defense and memory of a technique doesn’t ensure success. Your subconscious kicks in and movements that your body is comfortable doing happen. When you learn or teach techniques memorization of a technique isn’t enough repetition must be done to insure that you have programmed muscle memory. Repetition of this movements comes simply by doing your techniques over and over with and without a partner, variations to techniques are later experimented. The more knowledge you have the more you can search for alternatives to techniques.

 

[DavidCC]

To be fair most kempo forms do not contain the kempo self defense techniques ...

The pinan forms are really not kempo at all and perhaps do not belong in the system ...

Naihanchi from Chkoi Mutobu ...

I still would like to learn the quintessential form of Gm Parker and GM Emarado

there are 2 types of forms used in kempo - those that are composed of techniques, and those that are composed of techniques that we have numbers for

SKK "kata" contain some of the numbered techniques, perhaps more if you can strip away layers of changes in both the kata and the technqiues? They were created at the same time and by the same people (more or less...)

I don't know how you can dismiss pinan as not kempo but include naihanchi. Well, I should say I do know how but I think that is an arbitrary line. I have video of Oyata doing both and his style is kempo. If Villari created SKK and he wanted them in there (having been taught them by Nick Cerio) then by definition they "belong in the system". However I do think that they either need to be taught in much greater depth than they typically seem to be. For example I never found a decent explanation for the "C guard" until I talked to a Tang Soo Do guy

I think if you map it out, the form that both Emperado and Parker learned from their common root, is Naihanchi. But I don't know if that is "quintessential". It is certainly bad-*** though.

 

[JTKenpo]

“there are 2 types of forms used in kempo - those that are composed of techniques, and those that are composed of techniques that we have numbers for”

David, absolutely great point here.

“I don't know how you can dismiss pinan as not kempo but include naihanchi. Well, I should say I do know how but I think that is an arbitrary line. I have video of Oyata doing both and his style is kempo. If Villari created SKK and he wanted them in there (having been taught them by Nick Cerio) then by definition they "belong in the system". However I do think that they either need to be taught in much greater depth than they typically seem to be. For example I never found a decent explanation for the "C guard" until I talked to a Tang Soo Do guy”
Not, to speak for Marlon but what I believe he is saying is the pinans are not rooted in kempo as they are without question Shotokan forms. With the exception of two pinan which is a form created by Prof. Cerio to incorporate some of the things he learned from Chow. Just because we as Kempo practitioners practice, learn and or teach a particular kata or technique doesn’t make it Kempo. I teach an Aikido four directions through off of a punch does that make it Kempo? If you say because I am a Kempo teacher and I teach this technique then yes, but is this technique rooted in Kempo, NO. Now why is Naihanchi Kempo, Chokei Mutobu. If you believe your lineage to be that of Mitose to Chow to Master so and so then you have to take Mutobu as Mitose’s teacher (Even though there are quite a few people on this board who heard from the mouth of Chosei Matobu that Mitose never was a student of his father, another post…..) As for the in depth teaching or lack there of of the pinans I think that has a lot to do with “masters” not passing on there “secrets” until you reach 8th dan (or pay a little extra in the mean time). Then again that is why people like us on message boards like this discuss the applications and principles of the forms they study and teach.

“I think if you map it out, the form that both Emperado and Parker learned from their common root, is Naihanchi. But I don't know if that is "quintessential". It is certainly bad-*** though.”

As far as I know neither Emperado nor Parker ever taught Naihanchi as part of there system. Parker has Short 1,2,3 and Long 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8 as well as various sets. Emperado teaches Palamas sets 1-14 and I am sure he has various sets to go with that as well. These are the only katas I have ever heard of in these two systems.

Then again, no matter what system of Kempo you look at there are many outside influences Shotokan, Tae Kwon Do, Hung Gar and many Chinese Arts and that is just the Parker, Emperado, Cerio, Villari, and Chow arts as a starting point. Now once you go down three and four generations from these masters (which is where most of us are now) influences of other arts are even more prevalent. So are we really asking what is TRUE Kem/npo? That I believe is an unanswerable question. Do you want to throw away something that may hold the answer to someone elses question? Not me, I’ll keep practicing my forms, learn from everyone I can and teach those who want to listen. I still believe in the benefits of my forms.

 

[DavidCC]

“there are 2 types of forms used in kempo - those that are composed of techniques, and those that are composed of techniques that we have numbers for”

David, absolutely great point here.

“I don't know how you can dismiss pinan as not kempo but include naihanchi. Well, I should say I do know how but I think that is an arbitrary line. I have video of Oyata doing both and his style is kempo. If Villari created SKK and he wanted them in there (having been taught them by Nick Cerio) then by definition they "belong in the system". However I do think that they either need to be taught in much greater depth than they typically seem to be. For example I never found a decent explanation for the "C guard" until I talked to a Tang Soo Do guy”
Not, to speak for Marlon but what I believe he is saying is the pinans are not rooted in kempo as they are without question Shotokan forms. With the exception of two pinan which is a form created by Prof. Cerio to incorporate some of the things he learned from Chow. Just because we as Kempo practitioners practice, learn and or teach a particular kata or technique doesn’t make it Kempo. I teach an Aikido four directions through off of a punch does that make it Kempo? If you say because I am a Kempo teacher and I teach this technique then yes, but is this technique rooted in Kempo, NO. Now why is Naihanchi Kempo, Chokei Mutobu. If you believe your lineage to be that of Mitose to Chow to Master so and so then you have to take Mutobu as Mitose’s teacher (Even though there are quite a few people on this board who heard from the mouth of Chosei Matobu that Mitose never was a student of his father, another post…..) As for the in depth teaching or lack there of of the pinans I think that has a lot to do with “masters” not passing on there “secrets” until you reach 8th dan (or pay a little extra in the mean time). Then again that is why people like us on message boards like this discuss the applications and principles of the forms they study and teach.

I included Naihanchi, not because supposedly Motobu taught Mitose - but because Mitose taught it!

I think it is impossible that Motobu was Mitose's teacher in Japan anyways. My guess is that Mitose's teachers and anyone who knew them were all killed in the Nagasaki atmoic bombing.

“I think if you map it out, the form that both Emperado and Parker learned from their common root, is Naihanchi. But I don't know if that is "quintessential". It is certainly bad-*** though.”

As far as I know neither Emperado nor Parker ever taught Naihanchi as part of there system. Parker has Short 1,2,3 and Long 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8 as well as various sets. Emperado teaches Palamas sets 1-14 and I am sure he has various sets to go with that as well. These are the only katas I have ever heard of in these two systems.

I mis-understoood I guess. I thought you were looking for the key to how they got to be so good, not what they taught to their students.

Then again, no matter what system of Kempo you look at there are many outside influences Shotokan, Tae Kwon Do, Hung Gar and many Chinese Arts and that is just the Parker, Emperado, Cerio, Villari, and Chow arts as a starting point. Now once you go down three and four generations from these masters (which is where most of us are now) influences of other arts are even more prevalent. So are we really asking what is TRUE Kem/npo? That I believe is an unanswerable question. Do you want to throw away something that may hold the answer to someone elses question? Not me, I’ll keep practicing my forms, learn from everyone I can and teach those who want to listen. I still believe in the benefits of my forms.

 

[JTKenpo]

"I mis-understoood I guess. I thought you were looking for the key to how they got to be so good, not what they taught to their students."

Again, I'm not trying to speak for Marlon. i don't know what anyone else believes made these Masters great. Some were just generally all around tough guys that could rip your head off and they happen to find Kempo. Others were scientific in there approach to what they were taught and brought it to the next level. I do not believe they were great because of a certain form they were taught though.

 

[donald]

Learning a pattern of techniques doesn't make you better at going from every technique to every technique it helps you to go from technique a to technique b.

Ok, so what is your point? Are you saying forms can't teach you spontaneous response? If so I gotta say that I disagree. In EPAK, dancing, whatever, enough PROPER practice, and you should begin to learn to reply without too much thought. Whether it be on the dance floor, and your partner throws you an unfamilar step, or on the mat/street, and your confronted with the surprise attack. You should be learning enough movement through practice to eventually go from basic addition to more complex situations. That just seems to be logical progression to me. I hope this makes sense, and maybe can be helpful. I am guessing you have heard all this before, but for some reason you don't accept it. I hope you can have fun with this again. May The Lord Jesus bless, and keep you, and yours.

1stJohn1:9

 

[HKphooey]

Go do Form 4 10 times and tell me about your heart rate.

Learning to deal with angles and transitions are very important to your training.

 

[MJS]

Yes you learn how to flow from a technique to an other which has been selected for you, you build a fluidity between the two techniques such as in long 3 which in tracy kenpo you go from "2 headed serpent" into " "rising elbows" or for those in parker's system "destructive twins" to "crashing wings".

But let us analyze this in a simplistic manner, a dancer learns a set of movements a,b,c, and d, and she practices here heart out. just because she builds muscle memory and fluidity from a to b, b to c, and c to d, does not mean she can do the same with movements c to a.

Learning a pattern of techniques doesn't make you better at going from every technique to every technique it helps you to go from technique a to technique b.

Ok, so what is your point? Are you saying forms can't teach you spontaneous response? If so I gotta say that I disagree. In EPAK, dancing, whatever, enough PROPER practice, and you should begin to learn to reply without too much thought. Whether it be on the dance floor, and your partner throws you an unfamilar step, or on the mat/street, and your confronted with the surprise attack. You should be learning enough movement through practice to eventually go from basic addition to more complex situations. That just seems to be logical progression to me. I hope this makes sense, and maybe can be helpful. I am guessing you have heard all this before, but for some reason you don't accept it. I hope you can have fun with this again. May The Lord Jesus bless, and keep you, and yours.

1stJohn1:9

I quoted tigdras post as a reference, but I have to agree with Donalds reply. Just because we learn a kata from move a to b to c, etc., does not mean that we can't pick out a move from the middle or the end. Like I said a few times...IMO, the forms are simply drills that build a foundation, just like a technique. Hell, just today during my private lesson, I was going thru a bunch of techniques with my inst. We did the technique in the ideal phase, and then moved on to the what if. There were times when a move, when done the textbook way, would normally be delivered to the ribs, but due to body position, resistance, etc., I had to alter my response to fit what was happening at that time.

This, IMHO, is the ultimate goal....to be able to just react without having to think.

Go do Form 4 10 times and tell me about your heart rate.

Exactly!!

 

[marlon]

one problem i have is with grammer in these posts...i do not know how to make a paragraph break. So, when i mentioned that the pinans are really not kempo and then seemed to bring up taiji and naihanchi...well there should have been a paragraph break. The pinans are taught because GM Cerio fell in love with the Okinawan influence, however they do not move like skk...in fact NCK does not move like skk...imo. I am not discussing what is better, just observing a fact...interestingly GM Cerio's earlier footage looks more like skk (what GM Villari learned) than his later stuff. The pinans are not at all kempo. they are very interesting and worthwhile forms but they do not improve ones kempo, simply because they are not kempo and the differences are too great. they work certain basics very well however, but generic basics as far as skk trainign goes. they are very beneficial to any Okinawan style martial arts. Please notre the last point to avoid \unnecessary confusion and confrointation. As for the other forms i mentioned (in the place where a paragraph break should be) they are about touching something of what those masters found and learned and presumably wanted to share. Motobu's art was different from other Okinawan arts and in many ways shared a similar philosophy of fighting and teaching fighting with our kempo. The forms i mentioned are more about my personal preferences and goals and not specifically about teaching kempo per se. But then again how does one escape who one is...and why would you want to? Hopefully this clarify the comments from my other post and gets us back to the topic proper.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

"I mis-understoood I guess. I thought you were looking for the key to how they got to be so good, not what they taught to their students."

Again, I'm not trying to speak for Marlon. i don't know what anyone else believes made these Masters great. Some were just generally all around tough guys that could rip your head off and they happen to find Kempo. Others were scientific in there approach to what they were taught and brought it to the next level. I do not believe they were great because of a certain form they were taught though.

Thanks JT. I do not believe they were great because of a form they were taught. Yet if these exceptionmal fighters and martial artists picked a certain form to dedicate more time and thought and energy to..it is worth looking at more deeply to my thinking. If one of these created a form as thier signature form or quinessential form (at least NC and FV and YCFdid) then i am going to focus on it as a means to 'seeing' some of what they s'saw' and growing myself and my art and my ability and my understanding. This is my reason for loving froms in general and some specifically. As Tigda said the rest we could get elsewhere or at least with much less forms.

Rerspectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

there are 2 types of forms used in kempo - those that are composed of techniques, and those that are composed of techniques that we have numbers for



All form have techniques, i agree and most of our forms do not contain the numbered combinations as different from what i understand of the AK forms which are composed of mainly named AK techniques



SKK "kata" contain some of the numbered techniques, perhaps more if you can strip away layers of changes in both the kata and the technqiues? They were created at the same time and by the same people (more or less...)

can you explain this point a little more please?



I don't know how you can dismiss pinan as not kempo but include naihanchi. Well, I should say I do know how but I think that is an arbitrary line. I have video of Oyata doing both and his style is kempo. If Villari created SKK and he wanted them in there (having been taught them by Nick Cerio) then by definition they "belong in the system". However I do think that they either need to be taught in much greater depth than they typically seem to be. For example I never found a decent explanation for the "C guard" until I talked to a Tang Soo Do guy


I have a decent explaination for most things in my forms (although i have difficulties finding very interesting things in Invincible Wall). I still find new things regularly some more mundane than others but i learn constasntly from my forms...and do what i can to teach my students to dio the same...i have no desire to clone myself

I think if you map it out, the form that both Emperado and Parker learned from their common root, is Naihanchi. But I don't know if that is "quintessential". It is certainly bad-*** though.

I think i did not make things clear enough in my early post. I hope i havee done a better job today.
Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Ok, so what is your point? Are you saying forms can't teach you spontaneous response? If so I gotta say that I disagree. In EPAK, dancing, whatever, enough PROPER practice, and you should begin to learn to reply without too much thought. Whether it be on the dance floor, and your partner throws you an unfamilar step, or on the mat/street, and your confronted with the surprise attack. You should be learning enough movement through practice to eventually go from basic addition to more complex situations. That just seems to be logical progression to me. I hope this makes sense, and maybe can be helpful. I am guessing you have heard all this before, but for some reason you don't accept it. I hope you can have fun with this again. May The Lord Jesus bless, and keep you, and yours.



1stJohn1:9

Forms can give you the tools to practice the proper body mechanics to respond to "surprises" and in that sense can help with spontaneaity. yet in and of themselves forms do not teach this, in my opinion...teachers do, should, can... Forms can be a great training tool. the points mentioned above can be taught without forms or without as many forms as kempo has in the system using the techniques and drills

Respectfully,.
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

SKK "kata" contain some of the numbered techniques, perhaps more if you can strip away layers of changes in both the kata and the technqiues? They were created at the same time and by the same people (more or less...)

can you explain this point a little more please?

I believe the kata were created by Sonny Gas back in the days after he split with Kaju, and he created the combos at the same time. My guess is at that time you could find many of those combos within those kata. Perhaps only GM Pesare can tell us for sure today (somebody email him and ask ).

Over time I think that the kata have undergone many changes, small but they add up; and the combos have undegone many changes or even just been replaced, what with all the guys between Gascon and Villari not to mention USSD and everyone who split from Villari or USSD. So now there are not identifiable if they are even still there.

For example in K3 : we have a different combo 14 than most schools, in K3 where you do 14 we do our 14 not the traditional 14.

 

[14 Kempo]

Victor "Sonny" Gascon will be in San Diego in July of this year. I will certainly ask him about the forms and combinations and their respective origins.

 

[tigdra]

Mjs I agree with you in a street confrontation I would never throw a high kick, especially on a wet floor. Hell I wouldn't throw a high kick if the the mats in the gym were wet. I too agree that kicking high in the street is not wise.