Lost Techniques

[Doc]

When did Jim Tracy stop being part of Tracy's Karate and left it all to Al?

Jim had some legal problems, and Will, well was just "out there." Don't ask me to put a time on it but most occurred after Mr. Parker's death.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Good enough response for my purposes, thanks again Dr. Chapel

 

[hongkongfooey]

I am learning Spreading Branch, Agressive twins, and Intellectual Departure all in yellow belt.

 

[Doc]

I am learning Spreading Branch, Agressive twins, and Intellectual Departure all in yellow belt.

Not to rain on your parade, but those techniques were removed for a reason.

 

[jonah2]

Not to rain on your parade, but those techniques were removed for a reason.

Sir, I would very much like an explanation of why these techniques were removed. Our yellow syllabus teaches both spreading branch and intellectual departure

jonah

 

[Doc]

Sir, I would very much like an explanation of why these techniques were removed. Our yellow syllabus teaches both spreading branch and intellectual departure

jonah

It was determined the techniques required basics and skill not taught at that level, and generally beyond a beginner. Further "Spreading Branch" as presented only "works" with a cooperative atacker. "Aggressive Twins" is for an "attempted push." If you were aware a person was going to push you, he'd have to be so far away for this technique to work, it would be easier to do something else. If he's close enough, to actually push and elicit a reaction, then he's to close for the prescribed response. Especially, once again, for a beginner. "Intellectual Departure" has the greatest chance of success, but it is essentially a sparring mauevuer, not a self-defense technique.

 

[jonah2]

It was determined the techniques required basics and skill not taught at that level, and generally beyond a beginner. Further "Spreading Branch" as presented only "works" with a cooperative atacker. "Aggressive Twins" is for an "attempted push." If you were aware a person was going to push you, he'd have to be so far away for this technique to work, it would be easier to do something else. If he's close enough, to actually push and elicit a reaction, then he's to close for the prescribed response. Especially, once again, for a beginner. "Intellectual Departure" has the greatest chance of success, but it is essentially a sparring mauevuer, not a self-defense technique.

Sir, Thankyou for the reply. I agree with you on the last two techs mentioned, but spreading branch?, I've always kind-a-got on with that one. I assume you are talking the initial grab/hold only not working - the rest of the tech seems to work well. If it is the grab hold, does that not negate the other techs of that defence. Glad to pick your brain.

jonah

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Doc,

Do you think alternating maces is a better technique for the 2 hand push?

Also, why do some not teach sword & hammer any more.

 

[Seabrook]

It was determined the techniques required basics and skill not taught at that level, and generally beyond a beginner. Further "Spreading Branch" as presented only "works" with a cooperative atacker. "Aggressive Twins" is for an "attempted push." If you were aware a person was going to push you, he'd have to be so far away for this technique to work, it would be easier to do something else. If he's close enough, to actually push and elicit a reaction, then he's to close for the prescribed response. Especially, once again, for a beginner. "Intellectual Departure" has the greatest chance of success, but it is essentially a sparring mauevuer, not a self-defense technique.

Well put Doc.

 

[Doc]

Sir, Thankyou for the reply. I agree with you on the last two techs mentioned, but spreading branch?, I've always kind-a-got on with that one. I assume you are talking the initial grab/hold only not working - the rest of the tech seems to work well. If it is the grab hold, does that not negate the other techs of that defence. Glad to pick your brain.
jonah

At the very bottom of the skill level, have someone bear-hug you from the rear with authority and intent to dump. AFTER that has occured, see if you can execute your technique. The technique does not teach, nor does it allow for attacker body momentum, or the loss of stability of your base to even begin to execute the prescribed counters.

 

[Doc]

Doc,
Do you think alternating maces is a better technique for the 2 hand push?

Taught properly with requisite irrefragable understanding of body mechanics and Body Indexing, Alternating Maces" is far superior and works within the confines of a more likely and realistic scenario. Alternating Maces, by design should be for an actual push, not an attempt as the commercial system usually teaches by necessity.

This is one of several techniques at this level that is supposed to teach a student how to recover his balance from different assaults that have already occured, (Survive the Initial Assault) and control the height and distance of an attacker, the way I was taught.

Also, why do some not teach sword & hammer any more.

Good question!

 

[celtic_crippler]

What the heck is spreading branch!?! I guess at this point I'd have to go with Dr. Chapel reasoning since our schools don't even teach this techinque. The idea is to be effective. If at some point you determine a technique is not effective, why practice it?

 

[Kenpodoc]

At the very bottom of the skill level, have someone bear-hug you from the rear with authority and intent to dump. AFTER that has occured, see if you can execute your technique. The technique does not teach, nor does it allow for attacker body momentum, or the loss of stability of your base to even begin to execute the prescribed counters.

I hated the technique when I learned it for that very reason. Now I find that if I purposefully take a couple of steps forward to absorb the momentum of the rear grab, I sometimes find spreading branch right there. Obviously it depends on the nature of the rear attack.

Jeff

 

[Doc]

What the heck is spreading branch!?! I guess at this point I'd have to go with Dr. Chapel reasoning since our schools don't even teach this techinque. The idea is to be effective. If at some point you determine a technique is not effective, why practice it?

It's an old bear-hug from the rear technique in the original "10 Child Yellow belt Series of techniques," removed from the commercial system decades ago when it was determined "everyone could have a yellow belt," and replaced. Spreading Branch, Intellectual Departure, Agressive Twins, and Grasp of Death were all replaced by other techniques, or modified as Grasp of Death was.

 

[Doc]

I hated the technique when I learned it for that very reason. Now I find that if I purposefully take a couple of steps forward to absorb the momentum of the rear grab, I sometimes find spreading branch right there. Obviously it depends on the nature of the rear attack.

Jeff

You're onto something there sir. It's all about how to absorb his body momentum, and the posture necessary to recover your balance, as well as controling his actions after the fact, that allow you to to retaliate under control while eliminating his options until you do. That's the way I teach it, as I was taught.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Interesting.....

Could someone please post the text book version of Spreading Branches?
I'm unfamiliar with it. I'm all for being effective, but I have no idea as to what you guys are talking about! LOL.

We still teach Aggressive Twins. I see the value of it. But, as Dr. Chapel noted, you must be able to anticipate the opponents attack for it to be effective. That's why we also teach sprawling techniques =) (Thank goodness I have a background in Jiu-Jitus eh!?)

In order for me to make appropriate comments regarding the technique, I would need to know specifics. =) I've been studying Kenpo for almost 7 years and have, up to this point, never heard of this technique. Please elaborate.

 

[Doc]

Interesting.....

Could someone please post the text book version of Spreading Branches?
I'm unfamiliar with it. I'm all for being effective, but I have no idea as to what you guys are talking about! LOL.

We still teach Aggressive Twins. I see the value of it. But, as Dr. Chapel noted, you must be able to anticipate the opponents attack for it to be effective. That's why we also teach sprawling techniques =) (Thank goodness I have a background in Jiu-Jitus eh!?)

In order for me to make appropriate comments regarding the technique, I would need to know specifics. =) I've been studying Kenpo for almost 7 years and have, up to this point, never heard of this technique. Please elaborate.

Specifics are always nice. Hopefully someone will post it. I would have to dig to find it in my archives. Haven't seen that technique in over thirty years.

By the way the "sprawl" is a temporary fix that guarantees you will end up playing the grapplers game. There are other Kenpo ways that work quite well.

 

[celtic_crippler]

When I teach "sprawling" it involves regaining your footing. In most techniques involving sprawling, it ends with the attacker on the ground and the defender regaining thier footing and finishing them off. An example:

CRASHING HAMMERS #2

DEFENSE: Direct low line tackle/Shoot attempt
STANCE: Natural
1) As opponent attempts to grab/tackle push drag reverse into a 45 degree right cat stance as you simultaneously execute double hammer fists down across opponent’s trapezius muscles (either side of neck) driving opponent to the ground
2) Execute a right side stomp kick to opponent’s head sandwiching it between your foot and the ground
3) Exit out with a right front reverse crossover

 

[Doc]

When I teach "sprawling" it involves regaining your footing. In most techniques involving sprawling, it ends with the attacker on the ground and the defender regaining thier footing and finishing them off. An example:

CRASHING HAMMERS #2

DEFENSE: Direct low line tackle/Shoot attempt
STANCE: Natural
1) As opponent attempts to grab/tackle push drag reverse into a 45 degree right cat stance as you simultaneously execute double hammer fists down across opponent’s trapezius muscles (either side of neck) driving opponent to the ground
2) Execute a right side stomp kick to opponent’s head sandwiching it between your foot and the ground
3) Exit out with a right front reverse crossover

Sorry sir, that is not a "sprawl" in grappling terminology. The term derives its name from the posture that you are required to assume to change your center of gravity and to counter the attacker's angle and height relative to your lower extermities as you remove them from being within his reach. It necessitates a finish into a grappling manueveur.

I also respectfully suggest the technique you outlined, will in all probability fail for many reasons. Based on your description, you are moving your weight rearward on a "shoot" attack into a cat stance. That alone is not compatible with your objective.

Then you are striking with your weight on your rear leg, forward and down in front of your body. You will achieve less than a maximum results. Even if we ignore all of the improper body mechanics, your scenario does not account for the body momentum of your attacker that exists whether your strikes are effective or not. His mass is going to collide with your lower body even if you were lucky enough to strike him in such a manner as to nullify the intentions of a directed threat as an example of its many flaws.

Based on your description, I would rethink this technique. I apoligize for being unabe to explain a better method on the internet. It requires proper basics first, and the execution of these basic skills in a concerted and directed manner.

Dr. Crouch, who posts here from time to time is an old Kenpo, Gracie, Muey practitioner. He became a student when he came to visit me and I shared some methods with him over a couple of hours. He then taught his grappling buddies the next week and they spent the day trying to take each other down.

No one was successful. Never take for granted the skill or tenacity of a seasoned grappler. It could be a life altering experience. May I suggest you move out of your comfort zone and bring in some of your jiujitsu/grapplers from your previous experience to assist you in formulating technique(s) that would be more practical and functional. This would allow you to "test" your ideas in a more realistic, and less academic environment.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Doc,

You said that Grasp Of Death was changed? What was id the difference between the old technique and the one now being taught?

By the way why in the heck were all the techniques changed anyhow?