Kenpo Forms

[tigdra]

Ok, so what is your point? Are you saying forms can't teach you spontaneous response? If so I gotta say that I disagree. In EPAK, dancing, whatever, enough PROPER practice, and you should begin to learn to reply without too much thought. Whether it be on the dance floor, and your partner throws you an unfamilar step, or on the mat/street, and your confronted with the surprise attack. You should be learning enough movement through practice to eventually go from basic addition to more complex situations. That just seems to be logical progression to me. I hope this makes sense, and maybe can be helpful. I am guessing you have heard all this before, but for some reason you don't accept it. I hope you can have fun with this again. May The Lord Jesus bless, and keep you, and yours.

1stJohn1:9

katas do teach spontaneous response but so do techniques, so why do the katas? I am in totally agree but techniques show you the same things the katas do, so what the use of them.

 

[tigdra]

Go do Form 4 10 times and tell me about your heart rate.

Learning to deal with angles and transitions are very important to your training.

So your suggesting that I do long 4, 10 times in a row. I pretty sure you would have to do it fast to get your heart rate up. I would do long 4, 10 timesin a row but that would be too time consuming especially when I could do a more challenging form just twice and still yet reap better cardiovascular and muscular benefits.

Angles are also taught in the techniques so are the transitions, hence techniques like "escape from death" and "whirling blades", but lets just say for the sake of argument that techniques didn't teach you these things. Do you really need 10 or so forms to teach you a concept that only one or two would.

 

[tigdra]

the forms are simply drills that build a foundation, just like a technique.

Exactly, just like a technique.

 

[SK101]

Can't you record the techniques just by practicing them, and don't you learn concepts through techniques as well such as marriage of gravity in sword of destruction (basic technique) Don't you also practice key moves in techniques, finally can't you analyze techniques by themselves and find new meanings to them or do they really need to be in a form.

I would say the only true differance between a form and doing techniques by themselves is trasition so yes you could learn everything from technique that you learn in a form you are merely adding in transition to the equation. If you have techniques that attack with different transitions such one person attacks from 12:00 then you have to turn to face 3:00 to another attacker then yes you have everything in the form covered via technique, but you could argue it the other way also, if you have someone attack you while doing your form do you need techniques?

 

[SK101]

I get your point flying crane but to tell you the truth I don’t want to eliminated forms from kenpo I just think kenpo needs better forms, forms that challenge you both mentally and physically.

That may be the give and take of having a standardized system. You know you won't overlook something since you have an exact order, but the ideal for teaching would to be to vary material by each individual student. When you do teach and you wander it is very easy to find your students doing all the stuff way above their level rather than what they may actually need, but there definately is an argument to be made that every student is different and needs variation in structure to accommidate there personality, body style, and just as importantly what motivates them (maybe that should be under personality).

 

[Flying Crane]

That may be the give and take of having a standardized system. You know you won't overlook something since you have an exact order, but the ideal for teaching would to be to vary material by each individual student. [/quote]

very good point here. Most of the kenpo that I have any familiarity with is very standardized. In many ways this is a good thing and it works very well. But I think this is a fairly new development in the arts. I believe that back in the day, say a few generations ago, people learned whatever they could from whomever they could, and they passed that on to their own students. There were no belts, and the codified system was less prevalent. Whatever 'system' one taught was just the result of what he picked up over the years from various sources.

I'm not a historian so I cannot state this with true authority, but I suspect it is true, or true in many cases.

 

[tigdra]

but you could argue it the other way also, if you have someone attack you while doing your form do you need techniques?

I made a similar comment earlier on this thread stating that as well and few other individuals also made similar comments. I agree we should keep one or the other but not both seeing that both give you the same benefits.

In regards to transitions I also made a comment that unless you practice all possible transitions then your really just learning a theory. Being able to apply that theory comes with years of practice but more importantly with a higher sense of reaction.

Learning the techniques will make your odds better in regards to defending your life but they don't guarantee that you will be able to when the time comes. I have seen students that you scream out a technique name and they will do it without flaw, they are able to tell you all the specifics of a technique; their like a "walking bible" of kenpo techniques, yet they wouldn't be able to fight themselves out of a paper bag.

So what I am getting at is if an individual has a good amount of knowledge and good reaction time with proper technique then, yes their odds of defending themselves will sufficiently increase. But technique alone, I believe, is not enough.

So although some people prefer to keep forms and argue that a least it teaches transitions, I find that techniques themselves also teach you transitions. So unless a person is willing to spend there life training from every technique to every other technique, I find that transitions is more of a theory rather than a skill. An example of what I mean is that even though you can jump and even though you may kick doesn’t mean you good at a jump kick, unless if you practice jump kicking. Yes you may be fast and precise at transitioning through techniques of katas in a certain order, but speed, precision and reaction timing will sufficiently decrease if you do a transition you have never worked at, especially if a simple step doesn’t get you into position to your next attacker.

 

[tigdra]

That may be the give and take of having a standardized system. You know you won't overlook something since you have an exact order, but the ideal for teaching would to be to vary material by each individual student. When you do teach and you wander it is very easy to find your students doing all the stuff way above their level rather than what they may actually need, but there definitely is an argument to be made that every student is different and needs variation in structure to accommodate there personality, body style, and just as importantly what motivates them (maybe that should be under personality).

Well most kung fu systems have a standardized system and yet their forms build your body, mind and technical vocabulary progressively.

Of course every student is different and there are going to be students with disabilities and weakness in certain areas and of course you tailor defenses to increase their odds of defense.

Not all forms need to be done at high speeds with high kicks to reap its benefits, take tai chi as an example.

In regards to them learning things before they should, if I wanted to merge jujitsu into kenpo, I would be able to teach a yellow belt the guard position without it conflicting with his kenpo techniques. You could take physically demanding forms from wushu, kung fu or whatever and implement it into kenpo without it conflicting with their kenpo.

Last I agree with you not everyone is looking for an art, some people want defense so then why teach them forms when all the need is to defend themselves, a small dictionary of techniques with proper mental training such as krav maga would suite them great.

I have also taken these factors into consideration and I have made accommodations to my system to suite the needs of many, but not all, that is impossible. I wouldn’t begin to assume that I know what the best way to defend yourself if you were handicap and in a wheelchair. I would be able to offer some insights and recommend a secondary weapon such as a firearm.

 

[MeatWad2]

What use are kenpo forms?

I have taken kenpo for many years and every time I learn a new form or technique I ask myself what am I learning, more importantly what am I learning that is new? What am I getting out of this?

I know that forms teach you to have correct technique, flow from technique to technique, learning techniques on both sides but what do kenpo forms teach you aside from that? and how many forms do you need to go through to re-learn the same concepts.


please correct my way of thinking because I have lost hope on kenpo forms

The only way for you to correct your way of thinking is by learning how to practice differently. Apply your forms to partner drills. How? Take your forms apart and start thinking "How many different ways can I adapt this part of the form and apply it to sparring (fighting, whatever)?" When you are able to take apart the forms and practice your form applications against different types of attacks, then you'll start to think of them differently.

 

[tigdra]

The only way for you to correct your way of thinking is by learning how to practice differently. Apply your forms to partner drills. How? Take your forms apart and start thinking "How many different ways can I adapt this part of the form and apply it to sparring (fighting, whatever)?" When you are able to take apart the forms and practice your form applications against different types of attacks, then you'll start to think of them differently.

thanks for the tips

 

[Flying Crane]

The only way for you to correct your way of thinking is by learning how to practice differently.

I don't know that I agree he needs to "correct" his thinking. I don't think he is wrong in his position. I actually agree to an extent with much of what he has said and I see the sense in his points. Ultimately I disagree with his conclusions, I do see the value in kenpo forms and I keep them as part of my practice. But I don't think he is objectively or absolutely wrong in his thinking. Our final conclusions just differ, that's all.

 

[marlon]

My main concern comes from this conclusion; there are a large percentage of kenpo masters that are over weight.

Don't get me wrong they are super fast with their hands and all but they got this big belly going on, and yet you see kung fu masters and their majority are slim. Don't get me wrong I am not comparing asians to americans. I am comparing american people who practice kenpo vs american people that practice kung fu.

I am pretty sure I read this somewhere it stated that, parker was suggested to included forms into the kenpo system so to become more competitive or more legitimate.

So if forms where put into kenpo for those reasons then why not create forms that would serve new gains. To excel certain areas that are lacking in kenpo.

You learn defense from your techniques, you work out and condition your body through your exercise classes then what do forms do? Do they teach you hidden concepts that you'll never learn from a technique? do they condition your body to perform moves to make you more agile? are they done for beauty?

I know my answer to this question but I would like to hear yours.


I don't know the shaolin kenpo forms but I do know these following kenpo forms.

short 1 2 3 4 5
long 1 2 3 4 5
Block set
book set (panther set)
tiger and crane
finger set
moving finger set
mass attack
kung fu set
sword set
staff set
2 man set
2 man staff
tan tui
kicking sets
coordination sets
stance sets
and a couple others....

so i have re read this thread and i think that i may not be able to understand your point completely because in many ways the shaolin kempo forms do have a progression although they are still much shorter that kung fu forms. Leaving out the pinans we have
1 kata : straight kicks and punches not many angles
2 kata: moving backwards while defending / countering...more angles 2 kicks with the same leg without touching the ground
3 kata : joint locks 3 kicks without stepping down open hand techniques a jumping kick spining elbow
4 kata:...not so fancy
5 kata :shifting attacks from forward to back and new stance jumping kick new kick
6 kata :explores the combinations longer than other forms..new blocking
statue of the crane : animasl form, many moves off of one leg, balance on one leg, strikes to the ground, a formal throw in the form chain punching, double striking
then we begin with the more complex forms with a more kung fu flavour

Shotungkwa: continuous movement, the essesnce of shaolin kempo, jumping kicks, spining kicks, attacking in two directions simultaneously, many angles and directional shifts, scorpion kick, rapin up and down the centerline striking, a sweep, locks

honsuki: rapid striking sequences up and down the center line, elbows, sweeps, throws, breathing exercise, perennium strike, honsuki fist

Nengli north and south: very kung fu in its movements for a kempo form, evasion by jumping, snake kick, leg sweep, defending / attacking while backing up, many angles, limb breaks, lower body striking as the upper body strikes, drawing in the opponet to attacks, new stances, woundeed tiger strike, trapping, attacking from behind

swift tigers: animal form, tearing of muscle, high kick angles of attack off a line position,torque punch, throws/ rolling opponents, limb breaks, shifting leaning stances, advancing through opponents, developing power off of a stationary wieght and waist shift rather that through stepping

Invincible wall: i don't get it fully yet, but full weight shift into strikes, attacking the opponents back, taking out the knees

Five Dragons Face the Four Winds: coming up while striking/ striking from below, trapping and countering with the legs, striking while opponent is on the ground, many angles, fighting from the ground, different thr4ows longer form covers a lot of ground..more than the nengli forms, striking power in multiple directions simultanteaously.

Branches of the Falling Pine: do not know this one too well but animal form, striking with both arms at the same time, balance disruption, striking while seeming to move away from target, spinning moves, jumping attacks, spinal manip[ulation

then there are the weapons forms which challenges us in different ways with spnis, jumps, defending from the ground, shifting angles and all in the contecxt of the added concentration necessary to manuipulate with skill a sword, bo , jo , sais, nunchucks. broadsword, daggers...


so my experince with forms in kempo i thing is very different than yours Tigdra. Have you tried making a form to suit your needs. you certainly sound like you have the experience and vision to do so? Do your techniques meet the needs you express as missing fro mthe forms in your system? If they do then perhaps you ccan make a form out of them ...going outside your system to graft something on can be difficult because other styles may essentially be at odds with the philosophy of fighting and defense involved in your kenpo. just some thjoughts

Respectfully,
Marlon

btw i am no master so my insiughts on the kempo forms may be way off and others more knowledgeable than me are more thatn welcome to share and correct. i am here to learn

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[tigdra]

My point in the most simplistic fashion falls into two possibilities.

1.)

If kenpo is a defensive system

Then techniques show you the tools to defend one self, such as concepts and correct execution of strikes

And sparring and partner exercises should give you the ability such as timing, distance etc.

But kenpo forms only repeat concepts.

So kenpo forms become a repetition of concepts, and in many cases a repetition of what you have already learned just put together in a different order. In other words my belief is that in a defense system, such as kenpo, katas don’t at this time serve a sufficient purpose. This is where I make reference to defense systems such as krav maga, which happens to be very successful, proven, and efficient defensive system.


2.)

Now if you believe that kenpo is a martial art then techniques teach you concepts and technique to execute your art in a correct manner.

Fighting challenges the students to explore sport defensive tactics and fine tune timing, distance etc.

And forms should increase stamina, conditioning and flexibility, But kenpo forms as an art don’t do this.

(first form in kenpo usually is short one) and unless you do 20 times super fast, you aren’t going to get any stamina, conditioning or flexibility. The shaolin kenpo kata 1 that I saw neither shows much cardiovascular, stamina, etc. The form I saw wouldn’t get me sore just by doing it 5 times fast or slow, yet I know a basic kung fu form (first form in many shaolin kung fu schools) that weather you do it fast or slow 5 times the next day you are going to be sore and yet it is only consisted of 4 techniques repeated on both sides equaling 8 techniques.

So if you think kenpo is an art then it extremely lacks and artistic, aerobic, flexibility, etc. system of forms such as many kung fu schools.


*******One side note for those who don’t read the entire thread, there are styles such as shotokan and goju ryu which consist of mostly forms and some basic techniques. Some people consider these styles art and others consider them defense either way these style justify having their forms due to the lack of techniques, hence learning your techniques through your forms.*********

 

[marlon]

My point in the most simplistic fashion falls into two possibilities.

1.)

If kenpo is a defensive system

Then techniques show you the tools to defend one self, such as concepts and correct execution of strikes

And sparring and partner exercises should give you the ability such as timing, distance etc.

But kenpo forms only repeat concepts.

So kenpo forms become a repetition of concepts, and in many cases a repetition of what you have already learned just put together in a different order. In other words my belief is that in a defense system, such as kenpo, katas don’t at this time serve a sufficient purpose. This is where I make reference to defense systems such as krav maga, which happens to be very successful, proven, and efficient defensive system.


2.)

Now if you believe that kenpo is a martial art then techniques teach you concepts and technique to execute your art in a correct manner.

Fighting challenges the students to explore sport defensive tactics and fine tune timing, distance etc.

And forms should increase stamina, conditioning and flexibility, But kenpo forms as an art don’t do this.

(first form in kenpo usually is short one) and unless you do 20 times super fast, you aren’t going to get any stamina, conditioning or flexibility. The shaolin kenpo kata 1 that I saw neither shows much cardiovascular, stamina, etc. The form I saw wouldn’t get me sore just by doing it 5 times fast or slow, yet I know a basic kung fu form (first form in many shaolin kung fu schools) that weather you do it fast or slow 5 times the next day you are going to be sore and yet it is only consisted of 4 techniques repeated on both sides equaling 8 techniques.

So if you think kenpo is an art then it extremely lacks and artistic, aerobic, flexibility, etc. system of forms such as many kung fu schools.


*******One side note for those who don’t read the entire thread, there are styles such as shotokan and goju ryu which consist of mostly forms and some basic techniques. Some people consider these styles art and others consider them defense either way these style justify having their forms due to the lack of techniques, hence learning your techniques through your forms.*********

ok i understand your thoughts better now. thanks for reading my post..btw standing in a low horse stance for 30 - 60 minutes will leave you sore and your heart rate up. It sounds to me that you are saying the purpose of your doing kung fu forms is aerobic exercise and stretching (correct me if i am wrong...actually you do not need to) and that is your choice. If this is what you are looking for in forms and that a defensive system such as kempo is non artistic in your view then i can see why you would eliminate the kenpo forms. It is not what i understood from this discussion in the past. Thanks for clearing it up.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

[

But kenpo forms only repeat concepts.

So kenpo forms become a repetition of concepts, and in many cases a repetition of what you have already learned just put together in a different order. In other words my belief is that in a defense system, such as kenpo, katas don’t at this time serve a sufficient purpose.

repetition is the mother of all teaching.

respectfully,
marlon

 

[tigdra]

[

repetition is the mother of all teaching.

respectfully,
marlon

Yes, repetition is the mother of all teaching but learning the exact same thing over again and giving it another name becomes redundant.

If you take into considration that parker created most of the kenpo forms, then you would realize that the kenpo forms are actually contrary to what parker did in changing “traditional kenpo” into “American kenpo.”

Parker saw repitition, too much of it in the original system and hence eliminated or merged many of the techniques to make a more condensed and shorter system.

One example of this is “tackle technique” those in the tracy system know this technique. This technique has 4-5 variations and instead of keeping all the variations parker grabed all the variations and put them into one technique.

Parker was upset with learning “windmill guard” and then “circling serpent” then realizing that the only difference between the two is an extra wheel kick.

In fact I remember reading somewhere that parker wasn’t going to add forms into American kenpo until someone told him that it would make his style more marketable.

I don’t mind repitition but I do mind learning “delayed sword” and then learning a whole other technique that is exactly then same. Such as learning a technique called “delayed fist” and yet it is exactly the same as “delayed sword” with the only exception that the last strike would be a backfist instead of a chop. This kind of repetition is nonsense.

 

[tigdra]

..btw standing in a low horse stance for 30 - 60 minutes will leave you sore and your heart rate up. It sounds to me that you are saying the purpose of your doing kung fu forms is aerobic exercise and stretching (correct me if i am wrong...actually you do not need to) and that is your choice. If this is what you are looking for in forms and that a defensive system such as kempo is non artistic in your view then i can see why you would eliminate the kenpo forms. It is not what i understood from this discussion in the past. Thanks for clearing it up.

respectfully,
Marlon

I appreciate the tip in regards to working out but standing in a horse stance for 30 - 60 minutes is the equivalent to walking at a slow pace for 8 hours. I know that getting in a horse for that long will give me a workout and in regards to workout I know that I would get more out of a deep horse in comparison to the forms. (especially since many masters agree that deep stances in kenpo are incorrect) Walking for 8 hours in a slow pace would give you great benefits; low impact, minimum muscle loss, sufficient calories burnt. But the truth is that I could do so many more things in that amount of time. If I would do a kung fu form for 30 -60 minutes I would get a better workout as well as more benefits that a deep horse.

The purpose of forms are for limberness, coordination, proper technique practice, exercise, conditioning, and in some systems it is a form of learning self defense concepts.

I do find some aspects of kenpo artistic, but it isn’t its forms and I too find some defensive qualities in kenpo. I don’t mind learning or teaching both a defense and an art but there must be a clear understanding of what is art and what is defense. Forms are an artistic portion of many styles and techniques are the defensive, but learning forms that re-teach technical concepts for the purposes of defense is the same as learning self defense techniques that include back and front flips. Both can be done but why would you want to learn “defense techniques” that teach you artistic movements or artistic movements that repeat mechanical movements which have already been learned in you defense techniques.

Take this as an example, judo is recently considered a sport but it would be ignorant to deny that some if not most of its techniques would be applicable in a street confrontation. Taking this into consideration how would you feel about an all throw form in judo. Doing all the throws you learned previously in a consecutive manner and calling it “Oh summo 1”, doesn’t sound too exciting. Well neither does learning techniques in a certain order and calling it “short 1”

Again these thoughts do no include the styles that primarily do only forms, as these styles read defense applications from their forms and not from techniques

 

[marlon]

there are forms in judo

marlon

 

[marlon]

Yes, repetition is the mother of all teaching but learning the exact same thing over again and giving it another name becomes redundant.

If you take into considration that parker created most of the kenpo forms, then you would realize that the kenpo forms are actually contrary to what parker did in changing “traditional kenpo” into “American kenpo.”

Parker saw repitition, too much of it in the original system and hence eliminated or merged many of the techniques to make a more condensed and shorter system.

One example of this is “tackle technique” those in the tracy system know this technique. This technique has 4-5 variations and instead of keeping all the variations parker grabed all the variations and put them into one technique.

Parker was upset with learning “windmill guard” and then “circling serpent” then realizing that the only difference between the two is an extra wheel kick.

In fact I remember reading somewhere that parker wasn’t going to add forms into American kenpo until someone told him that it would make his style more marketable.

I don’t mind repitition but I do mind learning “delayed sword” and then learning a whole other technique that is exactly then same. Such as learning a technique called “delayed fist” and yet it is exactly the same as “delayed sword” with the only exception that the last strike would be a backfist instead of a chop. This kind of repetition is nonsense.

again, i do not know AK so my experience is different and perhaps my participation in this thread is not useful.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[tigdra]

there are forms in judo

marlon

I know that traditional judo schools have forms, what I ment was that sport judo didn't have forms, most people have taken it out because they are focusing on sport and not on art or tradition. I know that many judo schools have forms categorizing their throws, manipulations etc. but it is for that same reasonn that most sport judo schools have eliminated they aren't necessery for acheiving an olympic metal, which is one way to measure your proficiency in judo.