Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[Tames D]

To be honest though the OP isn't about kata as such it's about a poster who trains in a style that contains something he doesn't like or want to do, the answer is simple, as I said, train something else.

Tez. I think you nailed it here.
To the OP. Check out a couple other fighting systems. Two I can recommend from personal experience are Kung Fu San Soo and Jeet Kune Do.
KFSS does have forms but not really required to know, or spend time on. It's about fighting. It's a bit traditional and at the same time not. It really is about the fighting.
JKD has no forms, totally non traditional, and is a kick *** fighing system. You won't have to waste your time with forms, low horse stances and all the other non essential aspects of training. It too is all about the fighting.

 

[drop bear]

What on earth makes you think I'm agreeing with you? I think you are not understanding what is going on here.

The OP has gone to a karate class, he says there's too much kata, that already knows all the Bunkai for the kata and there's no enough grappling in his karate class. He says kata is pointless and karate should get rid of it.

The real point is that if he want to grappling in a kata free class karate is not for him. Why should karate have to change because he doesn't like kata? Other's don't like kata, don't see it's point there they don't do kata, they join classes in other styles that do what suits them, which is entirely sensible.

Hanzou, you can say all you like about kata ( and we have been over everything already so bringing up the same old same old is just boring), it's uses or non uses but even you don't expect karateka to change karate to suit you. if you don't like takedowns and grappling on the floor you don't take a Judo or BJJ class do you, you don't join their classes then whinge that Judo/BJJ would be really good if weren't for the floor work and they did more striking. That's what the OP is doing, he's saying that karate would be great if they didn't do kata and did more grappling.
We all have our opinions on kata, but training in a style has contains kata and then complaining about it is nuts.

Which is what I said.

Anyway. OP.

Not everybody has to like kata. It is not universally accepted metthod of training and not liking kata does not make you wrong. . like all training methods you will find what works for you and what does not.

As you can see there is a bit more passion than intelegence invested in this debate.

Unfortunately karate does like kata it is part of their method and will continue to be, if you want to learn karate. Do the kata. It is simple as that. It is part of learning the whole method.

If kata is driving you nuts there are different options out there.

Ironically Ian atherby does accept there is two schools of thought on kata.
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/iain...why-bother.htm

 

[drop bear]

So when your fighting in the gym are you defending yourself or are you fighting?
You do security or something I believe. When youneed to use your training at work Im sure you go as fast and hard as possible to stop the threat and keep yourself safe. When you rolling in a cage or training you dont. You go hard but your not trying to save your life. 2 guys fighting in a bar because someone looked at his girl wrong are not trying to defend there life they are fighting.

Well someone swings at me. I move, deflect, strike back. HMMMMMM just like the 1st part, of the 1st kata, I started learning on the first day on my 1st class. I had someone grab me from behind and try to take my gun from my holster as I Was trying to arrest his cousin. I used parts of Seyiunchin Kata to get him off.

If you find no value in Kata great dont train in it.

OK fighting in a gym is fighting not self defence.

Fighting in a bar is fighting not self defence.

Fighting to save your life is fighting not self defence.

Self defence can contain a fighting element. And that is the bit we are focusing on here.

 

[drop bear]

We'll simply have to agree to disagree here Grenadier. I simply don't believe that those methods are necessary to achieve the desired results.

Excellent post though.

Which is a pity because we have just glossed over the most sensible post in the thread. So I am keen to explore this.

OK skipping. Which I hate by the way. Increases core strength,fitness,timing and footwork. But does not look like boxing.

But boxers skip because they feel the importance of training a basic structure as well as training movements that resemble boxing.

Now let's compare with kata.

Kata trains the basic structure. That could be a viable argument.

 

[TimoS]

There is nothing you think you know that isn't in kata.

Not quite sure I agree with you on this. While kata teaches you really much, they weren't designed to teach you the ground grappling. If you want to learn that, there are better arts for that, such as BJJ or judo. The way I've been taught is that karate is good for when you're standing up, but not so good when you're down on floor

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not quite sure I agree with you on this. While kata teaches you really much, they weren't designed to teach you the ground grappling. If you want to learn that, there are better arts for that, such as BJJ or judo. The way I've been taught is that karate is good for when you're standing up, but not so good when you're down on floor

We have ground kata.

 

[Tez3]

How nice, this has turned into a kata hate/love thread instead of looking at the OPs issues of training in a style whose training methods he doesn't approve of and wants to change. Do any of the people bashing kata not think that's a bit odd? Instead of slagging off kata again perhaps you might like to re-read the OP and see why someone who claims to have 'done' several martial arts, claims to know all the Bunkai and is criticising the class he's in because he already knows more than the instructor, posted and incidentally once having set everyone off on the road of the pro/anti kata argument hasn't replied since.

 

[TimoS]

Then why are they literally called "blocks"

In English, yes, they are called blocks, but that's not what the word means. The word "uke" I'm told means more something like "to receive".

 

[Hanzou]

In English, yes, they are called blocks, but that's not what the word means. The word "uke" I'm told means more something like "to receive".

Uke (Blocks)
*SHOTOKAN KARATE TERMINOLOGY
SHOTOKAN KARATE TERMINOLOGY
Karate Glossary
Karate techniques - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess everyone has it wrong...

How nice, this has turned into a kata hate/love thread instead of looking at the OPs issues of training in a style whose training methods he doesn't approve of and wants to change. Do any of the people bashing kata not think that's a bit odd? Instead of slagging off kata again perhaps you might like to re-read the OP and see why someone who claims to have 'done' several martial arts, claims to know all the Bunkai and is criticising the class he's in because he already knows more than the instructor, posted and incidentally once having set everyone off on the road of the pro/anti kata argument hasn't replied since.

Good point. I'm done. Others are free to have the last word.

 

[TimoS]

I guess everyone has it wrong...

Yes

http://translate.google.com/m/translate#ja/en/受け

 

[Cirdan]

I guess everyone has it wrong...

Indeed. Another not so minor thing I guess you did not pick up during your decade in Shotokan. Link all you want but it won`t change reality.

 

[Tez3]

Not my club but my style. Scroll down to Uke ( though reading on the way down is a good idea.)

Kihon » Bournemouth Karate Club

 

[Hanzou]

Indeed. Another not so minor thing I guess you did not pick up during your decade in Shotokan. Link all you want but it won`t change reality.

The reality that a block is just a block and a punch is just a punch?

You're right.

Yes

http://translate.google.com/m/translate#ja/en/受け

I suppose the Koreans got it wrong as well, since they also call those techniques blocks within Korean karate (TSD, TKD, etc.).

Those sneaky Japanese, always trying to trick someone. :lol:

 

[TimoS]

Don't know the corresponding word for the Japanese word for "uke". Do you?

And if they really call them blocks IN KOREANS, which I doubt, then that is their right. However, the Japanese word does not mean block, as I already showed. Unless you wish to correct those who really do speak the language, I suggest you accept the fact.

 

[drop bear]

The reality that a block is just a block and a punch is just a punch?

You're right.



I suppose the Koreans got it wrong as well, since they also call those techniques blocks within Korean karate (TSD, TKD, etc.).

Those sneaky Japanese, always trying to trick someone. :lol:

Ah good so we are not all taking the high road on this.

I was training with a karate guy today helping out with the mma. Good guy trained up a national champion recently. Here is his theory. Low stances and dramatic movements are slower harder and not the same as how they would spar. (Sort of. That is a rough version)

But training in that manner does not make you slower in a fighting stance. Because they are harder to move in they make you faster lighter and more responsive when you get into a higher lighter stance.

 

[drop bear]

Don't know the corresponding word for the Japanese word for "uke". Do you?

Tori........

 

[Tez3]

Tori........

Tori isn't the corresponding word, it's the opposite word. Uke = receive, tori = 'give'. usually used in relation to demos or teaching one person is the tori the other the uke.

 

[drop bear]

Tori isn't the corresponding word, it's the opposite word. Uke = receive, tori = 'give'. usually used in relation to demos or teaching one person is the tori the other the uke.

Yep my mistake.

 

[TimoS]

Tori........

And how is that written using Korean characters?

 

[Cirdan]

The reality that a block is just a block and a punch is just a punch?

You're right.

At best those are simplified concepts for beginners and kids, as I am sure you have realized by now. But by all means, keep blocking.