Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[Hanzou]

Your hanging out at the wrong Dojo's then

Apparently I'm not the only one.

Its not semantics at all. If you cant see the difference between a fight and self defense well that's why you just don't get it. The Goju I use on the street looks just like the Goju I train in the Dojo except I usually try to tone it down a bit at work since I have rules what I can and cant do at work.

Again, when an exponent of Muay Thai gets into a self defense situation and is forced to use MT, s/he doesn't look much different than they do in the ring or the gym. You're telling me that a karateka goes from pseudo-kickboxer mode in the dojo to kata mode in the streets. I seriously doubt that's the case.

 

[ballen0351]

Apparently I'm not the only one.



Again, when an exponent of Muay Thai gets into a self defense situation and is forced to use MT, s/he doesn't look much different than they do in the ring or the gym. You're telling me that a karateka goes from pseudo-kickboxer mode in the dojo to kata mode in the streets. I seriously doubt that's the case.

ok

 

[Touch Of Death]

I achieved a high rank in karate. I learned several kata. I even studied some of Abernethy's Bunkai books and videos.

I still feel that its a waste of time, and training time can be better devoted to something else. Spending time in arts where there are no katas kind of proved it to me.

That's simply my opinion though.

Its fine that you found an art where you can rely on your advantages, but much of Kata is as much for the teacher as the student. In my system the first few kata or forms as we call them have a lot of information an complexity with just moving with a few blocks and punches: Posture; Balance; Relaxation; and Speed. It there or it isn't, and you can see a students progression or lack there of, in just those few basic moves. I don't care if a big no necked guy can knock me out, I care about his form, and will comment on it while we are fighting if he doesn't kill me first.

 

[Hanzou]

If you can't see the resemblance, then you should look more closely.

When you see someone engaged in a fight, you'll see that the same bodily mechanics that I had previously explained in good detail, are going to be used, where the lower body (hips and legs) will be using both forward driving and twisting motions to maximize the body's ability to throw a powerful punch. This is but one example.

Those very same bodily mechanics are the ones honed by the practice of kata.

All of the deep stance training will have strengthened the legs and hips to the point where you no longer need to be in a deep stance to tense the correct lower body muscles in order to generate power.

Amazingly, Muay Thai achieves the same results without all of that superfluous kata training.

Someone who has practiced Shotokan Karate for 4 or 5 years should definitely understand what I explained above. If you don't mind my asking, which organization did your Shotokan dojo follow? I won't ask for the name of your dojo, or your sensei / shihan. I'm simply curious as to which organization it's lineage resides?

If you practiced Shotokan Karate for the better part of a decade, especially ones that came from the JKA lineage (including SKIF, ISKF, IJKA, and JKS), then you should definitely understand how fundamental techniques, bodily mechanics, etc., are part of all aspects of Karate, including kata and kumite. Even the ones who decided to take a more unique approach, such as Asai Sensei, still utilized kata as an important training tool for the development of their techniques, timing, and other critical fundamentals.

My dojo was under the JKA. And yes, I understand what you're explaining above. My issue is that all of that kata training is unnecessary to achieve those desired results. In fact, I would argue that that kata training is actually detrimental to that development, because its teaching unnatural movements that you're not going to be using as a part of your natural fighting style.

For example, is it necessary to learn 8 stances when you're only going to be using one? Is it necessary to learn an archaic blocking system when more natural blocking systems have been developed? Is it necessary to learn deep chambered punches when you're going to be utilizing more boxing-like punches when you actually fight?

 

[drop bear]

Actually were supposed to be discussing Kata per the OP. I dont want the Hall Monitor to warn me again so feel free to start a new thread

Well the OP also related kata to fighting. In regards to however you want to call it. Physical effectiveness. Look if it has value outside of fighting and therefore why it should be trained it is still a valid point.

If it has some sort of non fighting self defence benefit. Then that would be an easy answer to OPs question as to why they don't just scrap the thing.

I would have thought the non fighting aspect was the lead argument in that martial arts contains histories and traditions that make the art a more complete and complex system than just a device for churning out kill monsters.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Amazingly, Muay Thai achieves the same results without all of that superfluous kata training.




My dojo was under the JKA. And yes, I understand what you're explaining above. My issue is that all of that kata training is unnecessary to achieve those desired results. In fact, I would argue that that kata training is actually detrimental to that development, because its teaching unnatural movements that you're not going to be using as a part of your natural fighting style.

For example, is it necessary to learn 8 stances when you're only going to be using one? Is it necessary to learn an archaic blocking system when more natural blocking systems have been developed? Is it necessary to learn deep chambered punches when you're going to be utilizing more boxing-like punches when you actually fight?

Just to be clear, not all Kata uses unnatural movement.

 

[drop bear]

Just to be clear, not all Kata uses unnatural movement.

Like?........

 

[ballen0351]

Well the OP also related kata to fighting. In regards to however you want to call it. Physical effectiveness. Look if it has value outside of fighting and therefore why it should be trained it is still a valid point.

If it has some sort of non fighting self defence benefit. Then that would be an easy answer to OPs question as to why they don't just scrap the thing.

I would have thought the non fighting aspect was the lead argument in that martial arts contains histories and traditions that make the art a more complete and complex system than just a device for churning out kill monsters.

Again "Fighting" in a cage, in the dojo, at a bar isnt self defense. BOTH are physical but they are not the same thing. 2 guys swinging and rolling with each other no matter where or who started it is a fight not self defense. I dont get in fights anymore I do and have used my training from Kata to prevent fighting. So yes Kata is very Physically effective but not so much for a fight

 

[Grenadier]

For example, is it necessary to learn 8 stances when you're only going to be using one?

Each stance has its own merit when it comes to improving the body's strength and coordination.

Sochin / fudo dachi, for example, is excellent for strengthening the legs and improving hip flexibility when practicing punches.

Neko dachi is a great way to improve single leg strength, while also improving balance.

Kokutsu dachi improves stability, while also being a platform upon which you can more easily learn how important body shifting is.

Kiba dachi teaches you proper leg tension, which is important regardless of the depth of stance.

The list goes on and on. Even if you only use a more upright, more flexibile, modified zen-kutsu dachi for kumite, the benefits of all that stance training are going to improve your techniques, strength, speed, etc.

Is it necessary to learn an archaic blocking system when more natural blocking systems have been developed?

Taking the long way is what helps you develop strength, flexibility, and dexterity. Of course you're not going to see someone making a full blocking motion in jiyu kumite, but all things otherwise equal, the individual who has practiced those full blocking motions will have a better block and a better understanding of positioning, leverage, etc., than someone who didn't practice that way.

Furthermore, someone who has trained using those full motions and has solid fundamental technique, can make small modifications to those blocks, and turn them into joint locks, throws, etc. Not only will he be able to learn these more easily, he'll also have much better control.

Is it necessary to learn deep chambered punches when you're going to be utilizing more boxing-like punches when you actually fight?

Practicing punches from a properly chambered position is a great way to develop the muscles under the armpit / shoulder, which are of critical importance when it comes to using proper bodily mechanics. Those muscles can help you with upper body stability, along with keeping your bodily alignment in the correct position, even if you're not in a chambered position.

There's much more to this than what I've described already. That's the beauty of the system, that it's straightforward, it can be learned by almost anyone willing to be patient, and it produces excellent results. Nakayama, et al., had brilliant insights into how the human body works, and those who carried on (especially Asai Sensei, even when he broke away to form the JKS) put an even heavier emphasis on developing the correct mechanics. Kata practice has always been an important part of their methods, since it is a proven way of developing those mechanics and fundamentals.

Furthermore, it's a method that allows you to continually improve, even when you're past your physical prime. I've seen first-hand, the physical prowess of Shihan Kos Yokota (one of Asai Sensei's top students), and at the age of 65, he can hit harder and faster than most people half his age.

 

[drop bear]

Again "Fighting" in a cage, in the dojo, at a bar isnt self defense. BOTH are physical but they are not the same thing. 2 guys swinging and rolling with each other no matter where or who started it is a fight not self defense. I dont get in fights anymore I do and have used my training from Kata to prevent fighting. So yes Kata is very Physically effective but not so much for a fight

I mean the physical aspect of self defence I define that as fighting. They hit you you block sort of thing. I am not sure what other physical methods you are discussing.

There are other aspects to self defence but I don't think kata trains that.

But OK you have used kata elements for self defence but not fighting. How so?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He teaches the individual techniques/applications first and then puts them together in the kata.

I have always believed that the best way to learn MA is to start with "partner drill". If you train "partner drill" without partner, you will get "solo drill" by default. When you start to train "combo", you will link some "solo drills" in a logical sequence. Usually those sequence will be less than 7 or 8 moves. Any combo sequence longer than that may be combat unrealistic. Whether you want to link different "combo sequences" into a long form/Kata is not important IMO.

If the technique in kata becomes reflex, why are there no Karatekas fighting in a way that resembles their kata?

In the following example, it's easy to see that the "partner drill" and "solo drill" are identical. If you train your technique through "partner drill", your fighting and your training will be the same.

partner drill:

solo drill:

 

[drop bear]

Each stance has its own merit when it comes to improving the body's strength and coordination.

Sochin / fudo dachi, for example, is excellent for strengthening the legs and improving hip flexibility when practicing punches.

Neko dachi is a great way to improve single leg strength, while also improving balance.

Kokutsu dachi improves stability, while also being a platform upon which you can more easily learn how important body shifting is.

Kiba dachi teaches you proper leg tension, which is important regardless of the depth of stance.

The list goes on and on. Even if you only use a more upright, more flexibile, modified zen-kutsu dachi for kumite, the benefits of all that stance training are going to improve your techniques, strength, speed, etc.



Taking the long way is what helps you develop strength, flexibility, and dexterity. Of course you're not going to see someone making a full blocking motion in jiyu kumite, but all things otherwise equal, the individual who has practiced those full blocking motions will have a better block and a better understanding of positioning, leverage, etc., than someone who didn't practice that way.

Furthermore, someone who has trained using those full motions and has solid fundamental technique, can make small modifications to those blocks, and turn them into joint locks, throws, etc. Not only will he be able to learn these more easily, he'll also have much better control.



Practicing punches from a properly chambered position is a great way to develop the muscles under the armpit / shoulder, which are of critical importance when it comes to using proper bodily mechanics. Those muscles can help you with upper body stability, along with keeping your bodily alignment in the correct position, even if you're not in a chambered position.

There's much more to this than what I've described already. That's the beauty of the system, that it's straightforward, it can be learned by almost anyone willing to be patient, and it produces excellent results. Nakayama, et al., had brilliant insights into how the human body works, and those who carried on (especially Asai Sensei, even when he broke away to form the JKS) put an even heavier emphasis on developing the correct mechanics. Kata practice has always been an important part of their methods, since it is a proven way of developing those mechanics and fundamentals.

Furthermore, it's a method that allows you to continually improve, even when you're past your physical prime. I've seen first-hand, the physical prowess of Shihan Kos Yokota (one of Asai Sensei's top students), and at the age of 65, he can hit harder and faster than most people half his age.

Which is the most reasonable of the pro kata arguments.

 

[Hanzou]

/snip

We'll simply have to agree to disagree here Grenadier. I simply don't believe that those methods are necessary to achieve the desired results.

Excellent post though.

 

[ballen0351]

I mean the physical aspect of self defence I define that as fighting.

So when your fighting in the gym are you defending yourself or are you fighting?
You do security or something I believe. When youneed to use your training at work Im sure you go as fast and hard as possible to stop the threat and keep yourself safe. When you rolling in a cage or training you dont. You go hard but your not trying to save your life. 2 guys fighting in a bar because someone looked at his girl wrong are not trying to defend there life they are fighting.

They hit you you block sort of thing. I am not sure what other physical methods you are discussing.

There are other aspects to self defence but I don't think kata trains that.

But OK you have used kata elements for self defence but not fighting. How so?

Well someone swings at me. I move, deflect, strike back. HMMMMMM just like the 1st part, of the 1st kata, I started learning on the first day on my 1st class. I had someone grab me from behind and try to take my gun from my holster as I Was trying to arrest his cousin. I used parts of Seyiunchin Kata to get him off.

If you find no value in Kata great dont train in it.

 

[ballen0351]

We'll simply have to agree to disagree here Grenadier. I simply don't believe that those methods are necessary to achieve the desired results.

except they have achieved the desired results

Excellent post though.

I agree

 

[Tez3]

So you are agreeing with me?

I don't know. There may be karate that does not do kata. But pretty much everyone I have heard of does. I mean if we could find kataless karate OPs problem would be solved.

What on earth makes you think I'm agreeing with you? I think you are not understanding what is going on here.

The OP has gone to a karate class, he says there's too much kata, that already knows all the Bunkai for the kata and there's no enough grappling in his karate class. He says kata is pointless and karate should get rid of it.

The real point is that if he want to grappling in a kata free class karate is not for him. Why should karate have to change because he doesn't like kata? Other's don't like kata, don't see it's point there they don't do kata, they join classes in other styles that do what suits them, which is entirely sensible.

Hanzou, you can say all you like about kata ( and we have been over everything already so bringing up the same old same old is just boring), it's uses or non uses but even you don't expect karateka to change karate to suit you. if you don't like takedowns and grappling on the floor you don't take a Judo or BJJ class do you, you don't join their classes then whinge that Judo/BJJ would be really good if weren't for the floor work and they did more striking. That's what the OP is doing, he's saying that karate would be great if they didn't do kata and did more grappling.
We all have our opinions on kata, but training in a style has contains kata and then complaining about it is nuts.

 

[Tez3]

We'll simply have to agree to disagree here Grenadier. I simply don't believe that those methods are necessary to achieve the desired results.

Excellent post though.

To be honest though the OP isn't about kata as such it's about a poster who trains in a style that contains something he doesn't like or want to do, the answer is simple, as I said, train something else.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Like?........

Like every form in the system in which I train.

 

[K-man]

If the technique in kata becomes reflex, why are there no Karatekas fighting in a way that resembles their kata?

You train a different system. One of the top Goju guys in the US has written a book where he talks of 'advanced beginners'. Unless you have trained to fight using bunkai you will never use bunkai. The fact that you can't see the kata in a fight doesn't mean it isn't there. The adage is learn the technique, forget the technique, use the technique.

I would suggest that many high ranking practitioners are simply 'advanced beginners'. They have never progressed beyond the kihon stage.

I achieved a high rank in karate. I learned several kata. I even studied some of Abernethy's Bunkai books and videos.

What's high rank? You obviously didn't 'learn' even one kata. You learned to perform several ... huge difference. I don't believe you 'studied' Iain Abernethy's material. You might have looked at some of it. If you had studied even a small part of what he has produced you would not be posting the stuff you are posting.

I still feel that its a waste of time, and training time can be better devoted to something else. Spending time in arts where there are no katas kind of proved it to me.

Many people train martial arts without kata. No problem there. But you don't have the first idea of the training we do, you have never travelled to train Bunkai with the top people, yet you claim to be an expert on kata.

That's simply my opinion though.

And an uneducated one at that, but nonetheless valid for you.

Apparently I'm not the only one.

Quite true. Not many schools teach the bunkai applications.

Again, when an exponent of Muay Thai gets into a self defense situation and is forced to use MT, s/he doesn't look much different than they do in the ring or the gym. You're telling me that a karateka goes from pseudo-kickboxer mode in the dojo to kata mode in the streets. I seriously doubt that's the case.

As you have pointed out in the past, not many schools teach kata as a fighting system. If I was filmed in a fight I wouldn't be using Muay Thai. I have trained a bit of it but not enough to be useful. Same for people training bunkai. Even so, if they were using it could you even recognise it?

Amazingly, Muay Thai achieves the same results without all of that superfluous kata training.

Muay Thai is a different system. So is boxing. Krav doesn't have kata ... so what?

My dojo was under the JKA. And yes, I understand what you're explaining above. My issue is that all of that kata training is unnecessary to achieve those desired results. In fact, I would argue that that kata training is actually detrimental to that development, because its teaching unnatural movements that you're not going to be using as a part of your natural fighting style.

Sorry, but if your kata was teaching you unnatural movements it was not being taught correctly. I would bet a million that you never went beyond kihon kata.

For example, is it necessary to learn 8 stances when you're only going to be using one? Is it necessary to learn an archaic blocking system when more natural blocking systems have been developed? Is it necessary to learn deep chambered punches when you're going to be utilizing more boxing-like punches when you actually fight?

Again, total ignorance of karate. You obviously learned very little in the time you trained karate, which is understandable in that the competition you were training for was point sparring and competition kata.

I don't know which stances you are referring to but they are all our stances are utilised in grappling. In the fighting you are used to you would normally only see moto dachi. That was our sparring stance. Often in tournaments I would also use neko, but until you are actually grappling the other stances don't come into play. Your 'archaic blocking system' is also at odds with reality. I teach that there are no blocks in karate, at least none that need to be taught. The techniques you are thinking of as 'blocks' might be used as a block, but again, I would never even think of using them that way and I would never teach them as blocks.

And to cap of the demonstration that you learned little from your time in karate, the 'chambered punch' is kihon. The reality is the punch is thrown from where ever your hand is. The chambered part is for grappling but no point in trying to explain that to you. You don't want to understand.

 

[Hanzou]

Again, total ignorance of karate. You obviously learned very little in the time you trained karate, which is understandable in that the competition you were training for was point sparring and competition kata.

I don't know which stances you are referring to

Back stance, front stance, cat stance, horse stance, Crane Leg stance, Half-Moon, Sanchin, etc. Sorry, don't feel like looking up the Japanese names.

but they are all our stances are utilised in grappling. In the fighting you are used to you would normally only see moto dachi. That was our sparring stance. Often in tournaments I would also use neko, but until you are actually grappling the other stances don't come into play.

Interesting, since Karate is not known for grappling, and actual grappling arts don't teach grappling/throws in that fashion.

Your 'archaic blocking system' is also at odds with reality. I teach that there are no blocks in karate, at least none that need to be taught. The techniques you are thinking of as 'blocks' might be used as a block, but again, I would never even think of using them that way and I would never teach them as blocks.

Then why are they literally called "blocks"?

And to cap of the demonstration that you learned little from your time in karate, the 'chambered punch' is kihon. The reality is the punch is thrown from where ever your hand is. The chambered part is for grappling but no point in trying to explain that to you. You don't want to understand.

Nope, because its nonsense. The same type of nonsense that says the reverse punch when chambered quickly is actually an elbow strike if someone is behind you.