Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[Drose427]

That lineage and tradition is prevalent in all styles of Karate and it hinders its growth and progressiveness. Making it far less effective and beneficial than a fully alive martial art, when it could be if people left the archaic methods behind.

Have you ever studied a fully alive martial art? (one without compliant partner drills, full contact sparring and no kata)

Im not sure I'd consider any of modern martial arts in the world right now dead. Also, I'm not sure what your background is, but even in Boxing and Muay Thay theres a degree of control. People aren't as bloodthirsty with their sparring during the week as they are in a bout. On the flipside, most Semi Contact TMA schools dont spar as lightly as people think. Bruising, blood, and damaged bodies are more common with the adults than outsiders think. I've been rocked and dropped just as much in my Moo Duk Kwan classes as I was in my Boxing days.

Every art, style or system has a degree of compliant partner drills. Your first day of Sparring in a Muay Thai gym, your trainer isn't going to let your partner clobber you. Nor should your partner come out and crush you. Early on, compliance from your partner is there so you can learn and get comfortable with techniques. More comfortable you are, the more resistance you should get.

One of the best benefits of Kata in my opinion is the teaching of proper technique, torque, and (depending on your instructor and how he teaches moves) applications. For example, Anderson Silva has an amazing TKD Front kick. He comes from TKD, and itd be ignorant to assume his Hyung never helped his kick at all.

Kata also arent meant to be practiced without One-Step Sparring and SD. You should be practicing Kata, then be taking some of the applications and drilling them with a partner. With kata, you can still practice alone. Also, you have the benefit of having many, many more movements taught at once with which you can draw your own techniques and combinations from. Whereas, in systems without kata its exceedingly difficult to practice your SD techs on your own and you are limited by what your instructor knows or what you learn elsewhere as opposed to adapting a movement in from a choice of 50 moves in the most advantageous way for you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Jesus, no wonder there are so many mcdojos

Is that troubling to you? I've got a stressful job and a family to take care of, so worrying about some McDojo doesnt even make it onto my list.

Do what's right for you and stop nosing into other people's business. You don't like kata, so you don't need to train it. But others do, so stop this nonsense of pretending like you are concerned about the state of karate. You are not. You are simply looking for validation for you own personal preferences because apparently you are not strong enough on the inside to just make up your mind to follow your own path. Well, I'd say you've gotten plenty of validation, hell, even I told you at least a couple times now, that you don't need to train forms.

So grow up, and do what's right for you and don't worry about what others are doing, especially when it's something you don't understand.

 

[HankSchrader]

Is that troubling to you? I've got a stressful job and a family to take care of, so worrying about some McDojo doesnt even make it onto my list.

Do what's right for you and stop nosing into other people's business. You don't like kata, so you don't need to train it. But others do, so stop this nonsense of pretending like you are concerned about the state of karate. You are not. You are simply looking for validation for you own personal preferences because apparently you are not strong enough on the inside to just make up your mind to follow your own path. Well, I'd say you've gotten plenty of validation, hell, even I told you at least a couple times now, that you don't need to train forms.

So grow up, and do what's right for you and don't worry about what others are doing, especially when it's something you don't understand.

Welcome to the real world of stressful jobs and kids you big cry baby. If you don't like your job man up and change it. Stop changing the topic to being about yourself. I have followed my own path. My problem is with the bullshido culture in Karate and how it weakens the Martial Art (I'm passionate about martial arts) for your information I dropped Karate like the bad habit it was. I

Lol @don't understand, my whole point is noone understands the martial art any more. Not going to bother replying to your comments any more. Hope you're okay today after a "stressful" day at work. *big hugs*

 

[TimoS]

Lol @don't understand, my whole point is noone understands the martial art any more.

Aren't we lucky to have you tell us what it's all about then

 

[tshadowchaser]

That lineage and tradition is prevalent in all styles of Karate and it hinders its growth and progressiveness. Making it far less effective and beneficial than a fully alive martial art, when it could be if people left the archaic methods behind.

Have you ever studied a fully alive martial art? (one without compliant partner drills, full contact sparring and no kata)

lets take your 2nd statement first. No I have not there is no such a thing the way you describe it. If you practice a technique you learned it somewhere from some one or thing and visualize it in you mind you are doing kata.

for the first part: lineage and tradition may be present but that tradition may well be to learn and evolve as mine is. I do not see where having one or the other is hindering growth. And what are archaic methods of learning if a punch is ia punch, a throw is a throw and a kick is a kick. unless you simply go out and brawl and no one ever says hey try this or try that or move your arm hear for better results your just brawling OH but you don't believe in that because that is going back to tradition and learning how to do something

 

[Steve]

Couple of thoughts. First, no-gi judo is a work in progress. Rhonday Rousey is probably the most successful, pure example of a judoka in the ring. There are others, of course, but the lack of grips requires modication to most of the techniques, and makes some impossible to execute.

Second, regarding compliant drills, every style I can think of, including MMA, BJJ, Boxing and you name it. If you think that an absence of compliant drills is an essential characteristic of aliveness, then you really don't understand aliveness (or maybe don't understand what a compliant drill is).

Regarding kata, take it or leave it. I don't like the idea of kata, but if I trained in karate, I'd do it without complaint. Sort of like going into an italian restaurant and demanding that they remove the pasta from the menu (or conversely, demanding they serve you kung pao chicken). Point is, karate is a thing. It is what it is, and kata is a part of it and always has been. As a consumer, you can make a choice, but to presume to tell others that they shouldn't enjoy what they're doing because it's somehow undermining your own personal view makes no sense. It's a particularly immature and narcissistic perspective to have.

I know guys that like to go out to the parks and pretend to be knights in the SCA. I think it's dorky as hell, but they really enjoy it. They understand why I think it's dorky, and they really don't care. I would never presume to tell them that they're doing it wrong, even though it's not my bag.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

no-gi judo is a work in progress. ... but the lack of grips requires modication to most of the techniques, and makes some impossible to execute.

IMO, to switch from gi to no-gi,

1st - you will need to use "arm wrap" because the "sleeve hold" is no longer available.
2nd - you will need to use "neck tie" because the "upper lapel hold" is also no longer available.
3rd - you can't use your grip to prevent your opponent from coming closer any more.
4th - you have less pulling ability.

It's not as simple as OP may think. A technique as shown in the following clip will need modification. You may still be able to push as hard, but will you be able to pull as hard without changing your hand grip position? If you have to change your hand grip position, it may slow down your reverse pulling, that will give your opponent more time to react.

When a technique that you have spent so many years to make it work, suddenly it just doesn't work that well any more. Not everybody want to go through that kind of frustration. If you keep moving forward, you will pass your uncomfortable period. If you stop moving forward, you will be stuck there.

 

[drop bear]

Couple of thoughts. First, no-gi judo is a work in progress. Rhonday Rousey is probably the most successful, pure example of a judoka in the ring. There are others, of course, but the lack of grips requires modication to most of the techniques, and makes some impossible to execute.

Second, regarding compliant drills, every style I can think of, including MMA, BJJ, Boxing and you name it. If you think that an absence of compliant drills is an essential characteristic of aliveness, then you really don't understand aliveness (or maybe don't understand what a compliant drill is).

Regarding kata, take it or leave it. I don't like the idea of kata, but if I trained in karate, I'd do it without complaint. Sort of like going into an italian restaurant and demanding that they remove the pasta from the menu (or conversely, demanding they serve you kung pao chicken). Point is, karate is a thing. It is what it is, and kata is a part of it and always has been. As a consumer, you can make a choice, but to presume to tell others that they shouldn't enjoy what they're doing because it's somehow undermining your own personal view makes no sense. It's a particularly immature and narcissistic perspective to have.

I know guys that like to go out to the parks and pretend to be knights in the SCA. I think it's dorky as hell, but they really enjoy it. They understand why I think it's dorky, and they really don't care. I would never presume to tell them that they're doing it wrong, even though it's not my bag.

judo are going to do their on version of mma apparently. Now that they have put the sooky ban on judokas competing in other comps.

i have no idea what it is going to look like.

 

[Steve]

judo are going to do their on version of mma apparently. Now that they have put the sooky ban on judokas competing in other comps.

i have no idea what it is going to look like.

I saw that. Ridiculous, but there you go. They want to preserve the integrity of their art, I guess.

I was really thinking back to the Pride FC days, where some judoka were doing okay in Japan, but not really executing a lot of the high amplitude throws typically associated with judo. Karo Parysian was pretty solid for his time, but by today's standards, his MMA Judo was pretty simplistic. Rousey's worked it out, though.

 

[Cirdan]

Welcome to the real world of stressful jobs and kids you big cry baby. If you don't like your job man up and change it. Stop changing the topic to being about yourself. I have followed my own path. My problem is with the bullshido culture in Karate and how it weakens the Martial Art (I'm passionate about martial arts) for your information I dropped Karate like the bad habit it was. I

Lol @don't understand, my whole point is noone understands the martial art any more. Not going to bother replying to your comments any more. Hope you're okay today after a "stressful" day at work. *big hugs*

So glad you decided to drop Karate, the average quality of students just improved noticeably

 

[drop bear]

I saw that. Ridiculous, but there you go. They want to preserve the integrity of their art, I guess.

I was really thinking back to the Pride FC days, where some judoka were doing okay in Japan, but not really executing a lot of the high amplitude throws typically associated with judo. Karo Parysian was pretty solid for his time, but by today's standards, his MMA Judo was pretty simplistic. Rousey's worked it out, though.

I know some bjj guys who are cross training in judo on the grounds that if you really smash a guy with a throw it makes your beej easier.

kudo. One of the few Japanese wins against Russia was a judo champion. According to my coach he didn't look to pretty afterwards though

 

[Flying Crane]

Welcome to the real world of stressful jobs and kids you big cry baby. If you don't like your job man up and change it. Stop changing the topic to being about yourself. I have followed my own path. My problem is with the bullshido culture in Karate and how it weakens the Martial Art (I'm passionate about martial arts) for your information I dropped Karate like the bad habit it was. I

Lol @don't understand, my whole point is noone understands the martial art any more. Not going to bother replying to your comments any more. Hope you're okay today after a "stressful" day at work. *big hugs*

Wow, that was just bizarre. Okay then.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Have you ever studied a fully alive martial art? (one without compliant partner drills, full contact sparring and no kata)

I train BJJ and Muay Thai. We have compliant partner drills as well as full-contact sparring and a batch of exercises that fall somewhere between those extremes. They all have their place.

for your information I dropped Karate like the bad habit it was.

So you quit training Karate in the last couple of months? There you go. Your problem is solved. You don't have to practice kata any more. You can devote your time to aspects of training that you appreciate more.

My problem is with the bullshido culture in Karate and how it weakens the Martial Art

Well, if that's your crusade, I wouldn't waste time with us nobodies on this forum. You should track down a really prominent karateka who practices kata and inform him that he's doing bullshido. That'll straighten him out. Might I suggest Lyoto Machida? I'm sure he would appreciate the education. (Be sure to talk to him in person so you can demonstrate how his kata has destroyed his fighting ability.

Seriously, though. I'm not a big fan of kata myself, so I don't practice it. Other people do, and that's great. We don't all have to practice the same thing in the same way. I might not see the value in kata, but there are people who do find value in it who are ten times the martial artist and ten times the fighter that I am. Maybe they'd be just as good or better without spending time on their kata. Maybe they wouldn't. All I know is it would be pretty stupid of me to go lecture them on how they were ruining the martial arts with their approach to training.