Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[drop bear]

There are karate guys who prefer face punching to kata.

They do Kudo. The world is wonderful and full of choice.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n13JLzkMXIw

 

[drop bear]

Ohhhhhh see I didn't know you were a master and all these old Karate guys before you just had it all wrong.

Seriously?

The guy has had five posts and you are trolling already.

 

[Buka]

For what it's worth - I haven't done a kata in 41 years. But I sure wish I had. My base is American Karate, boxing, kickboxing and grappling, and that's where my love has always been. I mean that sincerely. But now I'm in my sixties....sure as hell wish I had been doing some good kata from the git go. And that's the honest to God truth.

 

[Grenadier]

I think your violin example misses the point.

What violin example? If I recall correctly, I clearly stated a vocalist's example.

Boxers, and grapplers isolate techniques and work them individually or on a bag too. But your violin example concerning kata would be like trying to learn to play without a violin. You can moves your hands in a violin playing motion, you might even get some benefit from it but to say it's superior is not true.

Where did I say that it was superior? I simply stated that it's a proven way that helps you perfect your techniques to the point where teaching someone advanced application becomes much easier.

Furthermore, your example of the air violin is not valid in this case, since performing waza in a kata is performing the actual technique, and there's a premium on proper bodily mechanics, conditioning, timing, awareness, etc., all of which are vital to a martial artist. Your air violin example isn't actually playing the violin, nor is it developing any kind of technique or actual skill, which is why it's not a valid comparison, since the techniques of Karate performed in kata are certainly valid.

If you said that you saw a dojo where people were simply flailing around their arms and legs in a totally random motion, then I would agree, but this is clearly not the case.

A better comparison would be a violinist using the proven and tested Kreutzer exercises to strengthen his fingers, develop better timing, develop better intonation, precision, accuracy, and to be able to train brain to work more optimally. Someone who has shown that he can perform all of the Kreutzer exercises with a high level of proficiency can certainly be taught to tackle on any number of advanced concertos.

If you're in no hurry to learn to play the violin go ahead and "ghost" violin in the air, kata is the same thing. I'm not saying it's useless but if it were the superior method of training to learn fighting skill they'd be doing it in the ring or to prepare for the ring.

I simply disagree with you and your assertion. I've seen the value of kata, and well-respected organizations the likes of the JKA, along with Kanazawa's SKIF and Okazaki's ISKA, have done exceptionally well using these methods.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For what it's worth - I haven't done a kata in 41 years. But I sure wish I had. My base is American Karate, boxing, kickboxing and grappling, and that's where my love has always been. I mean that sincerely. But now I'm in my sixties....sure as hell wish I had been doing some good kata from the git go. And that's the honest to God truth.

My situation is similar. I have not done form/Kata for over 35 years. I'm also in my sixties. I have learned over 50 forms among 10 different CMA styles in my life. Do I want to go back to my form/Kate? Definitely not. Do I miss it? Also definitely not. My interest is in the kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration. There are more important things that deserve my training time.

Even if I can do as good form/Kata as my teacher does, I can only be a good "copy machine", no more and no less. I can repeat Shakespeare's play 10,000 times, but it still won't make me a play writer.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Sounds to me like you need to go to a different school as your current one doesn't fit "your" expectations. That is your choice....plenty of options out there.

as it relates to kata....if you are just playing follow the leader and treating it like a dance you will get nothing out of it. Is it required for combat....no. But that does not mean it is without merit as a training method.

others have given you resources to describe kata's benefits.....but it sounds like you have already made up your mind....

good luck....

 

[TimoS]

Why is every Bunkai different? Could it be because its under the influence of the teacher, and noone really knows the correct application?

Almost, but not quite so. Many, I would say most who are teaching applications to kata never really learned them and they have "reverse engineered" them. And yes, this includes e.g. Ian Abernathy. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it just explains the diversity.
The kata applications are still being taught in the Okinawan traditions, but most Japanese styles have lost the "true" bunkai ages ago.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think you got my point in the first post. I've all for Bunkai. I want it taught properly however.

I can see all the bunkai in the world when I look at the Kata, my problem is how Kata is trained, its not trained as Bunkai, its trained as kata. There is a difference. And even when Bunkai is done its not done in a fully alive way in Karate dojos.

I've done many different arts so I can see locks, throws, grabs etc present in the moves. Karate isn't trained the way it should be. If you're lining up doing kata as a group in your class sessions then you're wasting your time. However if your teacher shows you one move from kata and says this is a single leg tackle and has you sparring and drilling it in your class with proper resistance then its legit. The moves should be taken from kata (the bunkai) and trained seriously. And the kata should be discarded and used solely as a guide not a teaching method. You don't need a kata in wrestling, judo, bjj, sambo, boxing, kickboxing. There's no need to constantly do Kata in class, just train the hidden/represented movements in sparring. So karate then becomes a grapply/strikey art instead of just a competition of punches and kicks.

I know all about how karate is supposed to be 50% striking 50% grappling but I never see it taught that way.

Why is every Bunkai different? Could it be because its under the influence of the teacher, and noone really knows the correct application?

I've already even written out my own bunkai for different kata... the problem still stands that in class, its not being taught and these ideas are not being realistically practiced.

Most Bunkai is like this "do kata for an hour in class" then if you want to learn how to use it, don't bother trying to in Karate class, you'll have to cross train in Wrestling/judo/jujutsu/bjj etc. Its backwards.

I love that as a beginner you are saying you know all about Bunkai, karate and how it should all be taught just because 'you've done a lot of styles'. Lets put it into perspective, the class you go to doesn't satisfy you so therefore all karate, all kata and all Bunkai is rubbish. I'm not sure who told you that karate is half striking half grappling and I'm not sure where you get the idea that learning Bunkai is about doing a kata for an hour. I'm also not sure who told you karate is for competition either.

Your idea of karate seems mixed up, whether that's your instructor or you I can't tell. Firstly, what do you want out of martial arts? Is it competing in stand up competitions? for self defence? fitness or a mixture of all three? Why have you 'done' so many styles? Is it that you are dissatisfied with each one of them and have moved on to the next?

Blaming karate is pointless, the issue is you and your class, not karate. Instead of blaming karate look for a class and instructor that suits you in whatever style they teach. The instructor you have now may well teach badly or just teach what he is comfortable in BUT this is not karate's fault, it's not kata's fault so ranting about that is ignorant to be honest. Coming over as if you know everything when you say you are a beginner in karate doesn't help plead your case. Why should karate become what YOU want it to be, who are you? One word...empty cup.

You don't like karate? go train something else.

 

[Cirdan]

Your kata is not alive you say? Something to work on then I suppose.

 

[seasoned]

Writings I have accumulated over time. May help OP reconnect.


Lost in Translation. Kata are sequences of techniques, presumably ones the creator (or modifiers) of the kata had found to be particularly effective. Today we know the names of the kata and the names of each technique and stance present in the kata. Fukyugata Ichi (created by Matsubayashi-Ryu founder Shoshin Nagamine in 1940), for example, begins with a left downward block (gedan barai or gedan uke) in a left zenkutsu dachi, followed by a right middle punch (chudan tsuki) in a right shizentai dachi. See: The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata. Can you visualize this?




That was a trick! Once the movements of a kata are identified as specific techniques, the meanings become fixed. A "block" has a certain meaning, as does a "punch." A stance has a certain configuration and weight distribution. A dynamic process is reduced to a series of still photographs.




We assume that techniques and movements have always had names. The teachers of old were much less likely to verbalize or write down such things. They would demonstrate techniques and say "like this." The student would follow and generally not ask any questions. If the student asked for clarification, the teacher would often reply, "I already said, like this." The teacher was unlikely to elaborate verbally.




Words became particularly necessary when books about Karate started to be written in the 1920s. Each technique had to be named to accompany the proper picture or photograph. Often names were just descriptive or made up. If the teacher showed a punch to the face, the author (in his language) might have used the term "face punch." Or he might have used "upper level punch" or "rising punch." But the odds are that his teacher used no term at all (except "like this.")




But wait a minute. Suppose instead of merely punching, the teacher actually poked the attacker in the eyes, closed his fingers, and followed through with a punch. Should this be written down? Perhaps the author of the book would leave out the eye poke because it was not quite suitable for the general readership (we can't have children going around poking eyes). Such a gruesome technique might offend the publisher (who probably thought that Kendo was a more noble art). Karate teachers had to overcome widespread prejudice against and misinformation about their art during this time period. Besides, this aspect of the technique could be practiced by the teacher's advanced students who didn't really need a book anyway.




Editorial choices aside, the very act of naming techniques presents a very real danger of limiting them in terms of performance and applications. My sensei, Katsuhiko Shinzato, is a professor of linguistics in Okinawa. Although fluent in both Japanese and English, and an established expert in linguistics, he resists any requests to label techniques or body dynamics processes. "In order for the body to move freely," he says, "the mind must not be fixed."




Once you name a technique, you limit it -- you limit its performance and potential applications.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Greetings all

... If a kata supposedly has a takedown or throw recorded in it then students are not going to get good at it by doing the move its represented by in kata, they're going to get good at it by drilling it and using it in randoori against resisting opponents. Doing hours of kata isn't going to help anyone become a better martial artist than someone who solely does their whole art in an alive manner. For self defence purposes its asinine to waste time doing an act which represents something, yet not actually doing the move properly. I come from a grappling background in martial arts (wrestling, bjj) and in those arts you spend 100% of your time doing the art. A 2 hour training session in those arts involves 5 minutes warm up and 2 hours of practicing on fully resisting opponents. But in Kyokushin its split in half with kata which is very infuriating as noone at my club seems to have any experience doing the actual moves in kata on resisting opponents. Why can't karate just do away with Kata and teach the moves within kata in an alive manner? ...

I'm not a karateka or a fan of kata, so I can't help you with that question. I did want to respond to your assertion regarding BJJ. You seem to be saying that your BJJ training was 96% sparring/randori/rolling. Speaking as a BJJ guy, that doesn't sound like good training to me. You need lots of time practicing techniques and drills with a partner who is not fully resisting if you want to learn anything.

For what it's worth, my instructor's formula is as follows. For beginners: 75% drills & technique practice, 25% sparring/randori. For intermediate students: 50% drills & technique practice, 50% sparring/randori. For advanced practitioners: 25% drills & technique practice, 75% sparring/randori. (This is of course a generalization which can vary according to the needs of an individual.)

We do sometimes have workouts where all we do is randori, but those need to be balanced out with other sessions where we do other things.

Can you give more detail about your BJJ experience?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I understand that Kata is supposedly a recording of techniques (however everyone teachers bunkai seems to be different which leads me to believe noone really has any idea) but why not train the techniques in kata in an alive manner first, before going through the motions of kata and committing them to memory? It would give the movements a context at least.

I've actually talked to a karate instructor (on another forum) who does this more or less. He teaches the individual techniques/applications first and then puts them together in the kata.

 

[ballen0351]

Seriously?

Yep I'm serious.

The guy has had five posts and you are trolling already.

Guy had 5 post all of wich say how he knows better then the actual founders of the styles we learn today. He's a beginner yet he knows all the bunkai and in his vast knowledge he has decided kata is a waist of time. Nope I'm not the troll in this thread.

 

[Tez3]

Yep I'm serious.


Guy had 5 post all of wich say how he knows better then the actual founders of the styles we learn today. He's a beginner yet he knows all the bunkai and in his vast knowledge he has decided kata is a waist of time. Nope I'm not the troll in this thread.

I'm not sure at the moment whether the OP is actually trolling but certainly even allowing for the fact English isn't his first language his posts come over as arrogant rather than seeking knowledge. I understand that kata isn't for many people but then they don't do it preferring to do another style rather than moan about kata. To suggest you know everything there is to know is a dangerous thing on the internet :uhoh:, you are going to get shot down without doubt. Ballen certainly isn't trolling, just telling it how it is, bluntly.

 

[ballen0351]

Yes I did forget English wasn't his first language so maybe something was lost in the translation. In the end he picked a style that has Kata in it and a dojo that teaches Kata. If it bothers him that much he needs to move on. Or if he really wants to learn that style as he says well guess what kata is part of learning that style. Like I said once you start learning and not copying the moves it will help your karate improve alot. Or perhaps your just have a poor teacher and he's not teaching the kata he's simply copying what he saw. To say all kata is bad because one short stay at a dojo is a little silly

 

[drop bear]

Yes I did forget English wasn't his first language so maybe something was lost in the translation. In the end he picked a style that has Kata in it and a dojo that teaches Kata. If it bothers him that much he needs to move on. Or if he really wants to learn that style as he says well guess what kata os part of learning that style. Like I said once you start learning and not copying the moves it will help your karate improve alot. Or perhaps your just have a poor teacher and he's not teaching the kata he's simply copying what he saw. To say all kata is bad because one short stay at a dojo is a little silly

Which is a better way to make the point.

 

[Tez3]

I was wondering whether it was a mistranslation or a misunderstanding when the OP said he couldn't understand kata's role in combat. Combat and karate don't go together, kata's role is in self defence as karate is really rather than combat. If he means 'competition' the same still applies, understanding what karate is would go a long way to helping as well as actually understanding what kata is for.

 

[ballen0351]

Which is a better way to make the point.

Waaaaaaaaaa so put me on ignore

 

[drop bear]

Waaaaaaaaaa so put me on ignore

Or I could continue to correct you.

 

[ballen0351]

Or I could continue to correct you.

Sure whatever makes you feel important lol