Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[drop bear]

Anyway. OP.

Not everybody has to like kata. It is not universally accepted metthod of training and not liking kata does not make you wrong. . like all training methods you will find what works for you and what does not.

As you can see there is a bit more passion than intelegence invested in this debate.

Unfortunately karate does like kata it is part of their method and will continue to be, if you want to learn karate. Do the kata. It is simple as that. It is part of learning the whole method.

If kata is driving you nuts there are different options out there.

Ironically Ian atherby does accept there is two schools of thought on kata.
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/iain-abernethy/kata-why-bother.htm

 

[Dirty Dog]

Gentlemen, allow me to point out that your posts are completely off topic and serve no purpose other than to derail the thread and incite a flamewar. This is not OK. You can avoid doing this as an exercise in self-control. Or, if you can't do that, you can put each other on ignore. Or, if you think someone else is posting something that violates the TOS, you can hit the Report to Moderator button. I do not recommend continuing on your present course of action.

Thank you.
Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator

 

[Tez3]

Anyway. OP.

Not everybody has to like kata. It is not universally accepted metthod of training and not liking kata does not make you wrong. . like all training methods you will find what works for you and what does not.

As you can see there is a bit more passion than intelegence invested in this debate.

Unfortunately karate does like kata it is part of their method and will continue to be, if you want to learn karate. Do the kata. It is simple as that. It is part of learning the whole method.

If kata is driving you nuts there are different options out there.

Ironically Ian atherby does accept there is two schools of thought on kata.
Kata: Why Bother? By Iain Abernethy

That is just plain rude. ( and badly spelt)

As I've said, you don't have to like kata, you don't have to do it. If you join a class that does kata and you don't like it, leave. Simples.

Don't disrespect what others do just because you don't like it. Don't assume you know all about a subject as large and wide as karate, no one does. Don't generalise anything about 'karate', so many different styles so many different ways of training even within the same style.

That's not passion by the way it's common sense.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Kata shows people what you know and understand, without words. I understand how one may prefer to just tell people how awesome they are.

 

[Mephisto]

What violin example? If I recall correctly, I clearly stated a vocalist's example.



Where did I say that it was superior? I simply stated that it's a proven way that helps you perfect your techniques to the point where teaching someone advanced application becomes much easier.

Furthermore, your example of the air violin is not valid in this case, since performing waza in a kata is performing the actual technique, and there's a premium on proper bodily mechanics, conditioning, timing, awareness, etc., all of which are vital to a martial artist. Your air violin example isn't actually playing the violin, nor is it developing any kind of technique or actual skill, which is why it's not a valid comparison, since the techniques of Karate performed in kata are certainly valid.

If you said that you saw a dojo where people were simply flailing around their arms and legs in a totally random motion, then I would agree, but this is clearly not the case.

A better comparison would be a violinist using the proven and tested Kreutzer exercises to strengthen his fingers, develop better timing, develop better intonation, precision, accuracy, and to be able to train brain to work more optimally. Someone who has shown that he can perform all of the Kreutzer exercises with a high level of proficiency can certainly be taught to tackle on any number of advanced concertos.



I simply disagree with you and your assertion. I've seen the value of kata, and well-respected organizations the likes of the JKA, along with Kanazawa's SKIF and Okazaki's ISKA, have done exceptionally well using these methods.

you make good points, obviously I don't know how to read. Somehow I got violinist out of vocalist, guess I just suck. I think we're somewhat in agreement. There is no evidence to prove kata is a superior training method, but it is one way to train and it builds some useable attributes. You might think those attributes are more important than I do. Bottom line, if you like kata go ahead and do it. If you don't, find another school.

 

[ballen0351]

There is no evidence to prove kata is a superior training method,

There is no superior method since humans learn differently. What works for me might not work for you. The last class I went to about learning styles I was taught 27 different ways people Learn most effectively. Kata is however a great way to teach many different people the same thing the same way. It becomes easy to see who's doing something wrong or different. When you watch a class full of students doing the same kata the ones that need more help are easy to spot. It's also an easy way for people to train at home or away from the dojo. It also builds muscle memory. So the technique in the kata becomes reflex. It builds breathing and timing. It's a great workout. Run through a kata a full speed and power a few times your breathing hard and sweating in no time. So there are alot of positives that come from kata. There are alot of positives from all different leaning methods.

Bottom line, if you like kata go ahead and do it. If you don't, find another school.

Yep

 

[ballen0351]

Once your doing it for a while then you really get to break down and understand kata and why you d this technique this way or that technique that way. During out black belt classes we can spend a hour breaking down and examining the 1st 6 moves of the 1st kata we ever learned and still see things that are new.

 

[donald1]

I remember my first time practicing reps on kata, repeating the same form over and over again...
In my karate class we still go over the same form over and over again... But now it's a more advanced kata... Bored? It's going to happen but don't give up! That's how you get better.
Just this morning did 5 katas 5 times each... It gets boring after a while but it's good training. I know what you mean...

 

[K-man]

I don't think you got my point in the first post. I've all for Bunkai. I want it taught properly however.

There are only a handful of people in the world doing that, but that is another story. Bunkai is not 'taught properly'. Bunkai is your own study of the kata. What works for someone else may not work for you, so logically, bunkai as such is not taught, it is learned.

I can see all the bunkai in the world when I look at the Kata, my problem is how Kata is trained, its not trained as Bunkai, its trained as kata. There is a difference. And even when Bunkai is done its not done in a fully alive way in Karate dojos.

That is a problem with the style you are learning. Kyokoshin is not a grappling style of karate. That doesn't take anything away from Kyokoshin but if you are sparring at two metres bunkai is no part of that.

I've done many different arts so I can see locks, throws, grabs etc present in the moves. Karate isn't trained the way it should be. If you're lining up doing kata as a group in your class sessions then you're wasting your time. However if your teacher shows you one move from kata and says this is a single leg tackle and has you sparring and drilling it in your class with proper resistance then its legit. The moves should be taken from kata (the bunkai) and trained seriously. And the kata should be discarded and used solely as a guide not a teaching method. You don't need a kata in wrestling, judo, bjj, sambo, boxing, kickboxing. There's no need to constantly do Kata in class, just train the hidden/represented movements in sparring. So karate then becomes a grapply/strikey art instead of just a competition of punches and kicks.

You have to learn the kata first.

I know all about how karate is supposed to be 50% striking 50% grappling but I never see it taught that way.

Come to any of my classes or any of my mates schools who are teaching that way.

Why is every Bunkai different? Could it be because its under the influence of the teacher, and noone really knows the correct application?

There is no set bunkai. Bunkai is infinitely variable. There is no 'correct' application.

I've already even written out my own bunkai for different kata... the problem still stands that in class, its not being taught and these ideas are not being realistically practiced.

That is what you are supposed to do.

Most Bunkai is like this "do kata for an hour in class" then if you want to learn how to use it, don't bother trying to in Karate class, you'll have to cross train in Wrestling/judo/jujutsu/bjj etc. Its backwards.

No,you just don't understand it.

From Iain Abernethy's article:

To practise karate as a pragmatic system, kata needs to be actively studied, as opposed to just 'practised'. Gichin Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan Karate) considered the practise of kata without learning to apply them in live situations to be ' useless' (Karate-do Kyohan). Numerous other masters were also very critical of karateka who only emphasise the aesthetic performance of the kata. To my mind, without in-depth study of bunkai (kata application), kata practise loses all meaning. We should always keep in mind that kata were created to record fighting techniques and principles.

I've just returned from five days overseas studying bunkai under an Okinawan master called Masaji Taira. If you want to understand kata and bunkai you need to train with people like him. You are never going to learn bunkai from someone who has never studied bunkai.
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

I've just returned from five days overseas studying bunkai under an Okinawan master called Masaji Taira. If you want to understand kata and bunkai you need to train with people like him. You are never going to learn bunkai from someone who has never studied bunkai.
:asian:

Im very jealous of you right now.

 

[drop bear]

That is just plain rude. ( and badly spelt)

As I've said, you don't have to like kata, you don't have to do it. If you join a class that does kata and you don't like it, leave. Simples.

Don't disrespect what others do just because you don't like it. Don't assume you know all about a subject as large and wide as karate, no one does. Don't generalise anything about 'karate', so many different styles so many different ways of training even within the same style.

That's not passion by the way it's common sense.

So you are agreeing with me?

I don't know. There may be karate that does not do kata. But pretty much everyone I have heard of does. I mean if we could find kataless karate OPs problem would be solved.

 

[Hanzou]

There is no superior method since humans learn differently. What works for me might not work for you. The last class I went to about learning styles I was taught 27 different ways people Learn most effectively. Kata is however a great way to teach many different people the same thing the same way. It becomes easy to see who's doing something wrong or different. When you watch a class full of students doing the same kata the ones that need more help are easy to spot. It's also an easy way for people to train at home or away from the dojo. It also builds muscle memory. So the technique in the kata becomes reflex. It builds breathing and timing. It's a great workout. Run through a kata a full speed and power a few times your breathing hard and sweating in no time. So there are alot of positives that come from kata. There are alot of positives from all different leaning methods.

If the technique in kata becomes reflex, why are there no Karatekas fighting in a way that resembles their kata?

 

[ballen0351]

If the technique in kata becomes reflex, why are there no Karatekas fighting in a way that resembles their kata?

Who says they arent? Dont give me the "in the cage" stuff either. There is a big difference between "fighting" and self defense. I train Karate for self defense not to"fight" There is a difference.

 

[Hanzou]

Who says they arent?

In the cage, on the street, in the dojo, it simply never occurs. I'm well aware that you guys talk about people fighting with their katas, but its just like the people who claim they've seen bigfoot and the loch ness monster.

Dont give me the "in the cage" stuff either. There is a big difference between "fighting" and self defense. I train Karate for self defense not to"fight" There is a difference.

Semantic nonsense at its finest. :lol: Whether self defense, training in the dojo, or in a cage, Bjj, MT, Wrestling, Judo, etc. all looks pretty much the same. Yet somehow Karate is a completely different martial art "on the streets"?

Okay...

 

[ballen0351]

In the cage, on the street, in the dojo, it simply never occurs. I'm well aware that you guys talk about people fighting with their katas, but its just like the people who claim they've seen bigfoot and the loch ness monster.

Your hanging out at the wrong Dojo's then

Semantic nonsense at its finest. :lol: Whether self defense, training in the dojo, or in a cage, Bjj, MT, Wrestling, Judo, etc. all looks pretty much the same. Yet somehow Karate is a completely different martial art "on the streets"?

Okay...

Its not semantics at all. If you cant see the difference between a fight and self defense well that's why you just don't get it. The Goju I use on the street looks just like the Goju I train in the Dojo except I usually try to tone it down a bit at work since I have rules what I can and cant do at work.

 

[Touch Of Death]

In the cage, on the street, in the dojo, it simply never occurs. I'm well aware that you guys talk about people fighting with their katas, but its just like the people who claim they've seen bigfoot and the loch ness monster.



Semantic nonsense at its finest. :lol: Whether self defense, training in the dojo, or in a cage, Bjj, MT, Wrestling, Judo, etc. all looks pretty much the same. Yet somehow Karate is a completely different martial art "on the streets"?

Okay...

There is nothing you think you know that isn't in kata.

 

[Hanzou]

There is nothing you think you know that isn't in kata.

I achieved a high rank in karate. I learned several kata. I even studied some of Abernethy's Bunkai books and videos.

I still feel that its a waste of time, and training time can be better devoted to something else. Spending time in arts where there are no katas kind of proved it to me.

That's simply my opinion though.

 

[drop bear]

Who says they arent? Dont give me the "in the cage" stuff either. There is a big difference between "fighting" and self defense. I train Karate for self defense not to"fight" There is a difference.

Yeah but I think here we are discussing fighting. The actual physical action of defending rather than the elements like awareness and deescalation.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah but I think here we are discussing fighting. The actual physical action of defending rather than the elements like awareness and deescalation.

Actually were supposed to be discussing Kata per the OP. I dont want the Hall Monitor to warn me again so feel free to start a new thread

 

[Grenadier]

If the technique in kata becomes reflex, why are there no Karatekas fighting in a way that resembles their kata?

If you can't see the resemblance, then you should look more closely.

When you see someone engaged in a fight, you'll see that the same bodily mechanics that I had previously explained in good detail, are going to be used, where the lower body (hips and legs) will be using both forward driving and twisting motions to maximize the body's ability to throw a powerful punch. This is but one example.

Those very same bodily mechanics are the ones honed by the practice of kata.

All of the deep stance training will have strengthened the legs and hips to the point where you no longer need to be in a deep stance to tense the correct lower body muscles in order to generate power.

I did Shotokan for the better part of a decade

Someone who has practiced Shotokan Karate for 4 or 5 years should definitely understand what I explained above. If you don't mind my asking, which organization did your Shotokan dojo follow? I won't ask for the name of your dojo, or your sensei / shihan. I'm simply curious as to which organization it's lineage resides?

If you practiced Shotokan Karate for the better part of a decade, especially ones that came from the JKA lineage (including SKIF, ISKF, IJKA, and JKS), then you should definitely understand how fundamental techniques, bodily mechanics, etc., are part of all aspects of Karate, including kata and kumite. Even the ones who decided to take a more unique approach, such as Asai Sensei, still utilized kata as an important training tool for the development of their techniques, timing, and other critical fundamentals.