Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[Hanzou]

At best those are simplified concepts for beginners and kids, as I am sure you have realized by now. But by all means, keep blocking.

Would those "beginners and kids" also include instructors and owners of dojos? Because throughout the US karate exponents also call them "blocks", and they're taught as blocks to students.

Just FYI: "To receive" can also mean to block or deflect, which is probably why they're translated as "blocks" in other languages. You're still "receiving" the technique if you're blocking/deflecting it.

The overriding point however is that those blocking techniques aren't very efficient, which is why you don't see them when two karate exponents are fighting each other.

 

[Hanzou]

Ah good so we are not all taking the high road on this.

I was training with a karate guy today helping out with the mma. Good guy trained up a national champion recently. Here is his theory. Low stances and dramatic movements are slower harder and not the same as how they would spar. (Sort of. That is a rough version)

But training in that manner does not make you slower in a fighting stance. Because they are harder to move in they make you faster lighter and more responsive when you get into a higher lighter stance.

As someone who was trained in that exact method, I simply disagree. Its better to train in your fighting stance than to learn several awkward stances that are just put in place to supposedly "develop" your leg muscles. When you spend so much time learning techniques that you're never going to use instead of learning techniques that you can actually use, you develop a fairly awkward fighting style. I see it throughout karate.


I see this;

Far too often. That's how we fought in my dojo. I visited a friend's dojo last week, and that's how they were fighting, and they weren't a Shotokan dojo.

Here's a TKD dojang doing the exact same thing;

So its not just limited to Japanese karate. No graceful kata-like techniques. No "uke" or whatever you want to call it to speak of. Just two people flailing about when they actually make contact. :uhoh:

 

[Buka]

This is very nostalgic for me. Haven't been around a real "Kata argument" in a long time. I may have to put on some disco music.

It's kind of like the age old argument - what came first, the chicken.....or the cheese omelet?

 

[TimoS]

Just FYI: "To receive" can also mean to block or deflect, which is probably why they're translated as "blocks" in other languages

Is that so? I admit English isn't my first language, so I could be wrong, but to me blocking is almost the opposite of receiving

 

[ballen0351]

As someone who was trained in that exact method, I simply disagree. Its better to train in your fighting stance than to learn several awkward stances that are just put in place to supposedly "develop" your leg muscles. When you spend so much time learning techniques that you're never going to use instead of learning techniques that you can actually use, you develop a fairly awkward fighting style. I see it throughout karate.


I see this;

Far too often. That's how we fought in my dojo. I visited a friend's dojo last week, and that's how they were fighting, and they weren't a Shotokan dojo.

Here's a TKD dojang doing the exact same thing;

So its not just limited to Japanese karate. No graceful kata-like techniques. No "uke" or whatever you want to call it to speak of. Just two people flailing about when they actually make contact. :uhoh:

Thats not what Karate was designed for so it will look different when your using it out of context. Karate wasnt made to score points or for sparing. A pencil was designed to write on paper. It does a crappy job as a paint brush.

 

[Tez3]

This is very nostalgic for me. Haven't been around a real "Kata argument" in a long time. I may have to put on some disco music.

It's kind of like the age old argument - what came first, the chicken.....or the cheese omelet?

This thread is turning into a continuation of another recent one on kata, it's basically one guy who trains in another style completely posting videos to show how bad karate is, mistaking sparring for 'fighting', misunderstanding what kata is for and not wanting to let an opportunity go pass to show how great BJJ is.
Misunderstanding, disliking or not being bothered to train kata and Bunkai doesn't actually make you right and the others wrong. It just means you dislike, misunderstand or can't be bothered. Yawn.

If you explain your philosophy of martial arts, how you train and what you do it doesn't mean you are the only one who is right. Martial arts are like petrol (gas to the North Americans) lots of different brands but they all do the same job, you have your favourite brand and it may have an additive or two you prefer but all in all it's still petrol. You might not understand why one guy puts the cheaper/more expensive stuff in his vehicle but hey that's his choice you can't say he's wrong and you are right. It's down to preference and all the posting of videos in the world isn't going to prove anything, there's bad and good out there of every style which proves only that people like videoing themselves. To constantly harp on about how wrong a style is, how mistaken it's practitioners are, how wrong they train etc etc is verging on bullying not martial arts evangelism. Ok your style is awesome, the best ever well good for you but disrespecting everyone else's style, sneering and hectoring doesn't do much to prove the point.

The best advice is ...let it go. Don't like kata, don't do it. Don't like the way someone spars, don't spar with them. It's easy. :miffer:

 

[Cirdan]

Would those "beginners and kids" also include instructors and owners of dojos? Because throughout the US karate exponents also call them "blocks", and they're taught as blocks to students.

Just FYI: "To receive" can also mean to block or deflect, which is probably why they're translated as "blocks" in other languages. You're still "receiving" the technique if you're blocking/deflecting it.

The overriding point however is that those blocking techniques aren't very efficient, which is why you don't see them when two karate exponents are fighting each other.

Sad to hear you spent a decade practicing something that does not work for you then. Maybe if it was applied the right way.. but that would be way too much work I guess. And you will always have youtube, yay!

 

[Hanzou]

Thats not what Karate was designed for so it will look different when your using it out of context. Karate wasnt made to score points or for sparing. A pencil was designed to write on paper. It does a crappy job as a paint brush.

You seem to miss the fact that the second video had nothing to do with scoring points. It was sparring for a black belt.

 

[Rich Parsons]

This thread is turning into a continuation of another recent one on kata, it's basically one guy who trains in another style completely posting videos to show how bad karate is, mistaking sparring for 'fighting', misunderstanding what kata is for and not wanting to let an opportunity go pass to show how great BJJ is.

Tez3 et al (* And others *),

If you believe that a post is art bashing (* Against one of the rules that the Terms of Service agreement references *) then please use the RTM (* report to moderator *) function of each post.

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Thanks

 

[Hanzou]

This thread is turning into a continuation of another recent one on kata, it's basically one guy who trains in another style completely posting videos to show how bad karate is, mistaking sparring for 'fighting', misunderstanding what kata is for and not wanting to let an opportunity go pass to show how great BJJ is.
Misunderstanding, disliking or not being bothered to train kata and Bunkai doesn't actually make you right and the others wrong. It just means you dislike, misunderstand or can't be bothered. Yawn.

Actually that's not correct.

You guys are saying that kata practice produces a result. I'm telling you that kata practice produces a different result and showing evidence that supports that stance from black belts in a variety of karate (and related) styles.

 

[ballen0351]

You seem to miss the fact that the second video had nothing to do with scoring points. It was sparring for a black belt.

Again Karate wasnt designed for sparing period points or no points thats not its purpose

 

[ballen0351]

Actually that's not correct.

You guys are saying that kata practice produces a result.

correct it does

I'm telling you that kata practice produces a different result and showing evidence that supports that stance from black belts in a variety of karate (and related) styles.

and your wrong since Kata has nothing to do with sparring.

 

[Tez3]

Actually that's not correct.

You guys are saying that kata practice produces a result. I'm telling you that kata practice produces a different result and showing evidence that supports that stance from black belts in a variety of karate (and related) styles.

You see, you are telling us and a video produces no evidence because as I said there are good an bad videos everywhere. It makes it sound like you know better than the founders of styles an people who have been doing them for decades. All karate style stances aren't the same, they may have the same use but at least one style doesn't use long stances.

You are assuming one result when we are pointing out another, you insist that kata is for 'fighting' so is therefore unsuccessful when it is clearly not for 'fighting'. what do you believe karate is 'for'?

 

[TimoS]

and your wrong since Kata has nothing to do with sparring.

In a way, it does. For ages kata was the method of transferring individual techniques and those same techniques are used also in sparring

 

[Hanzou]

Again Karate wasnt designed for sparing period points or no points thats not its purpose

So an art that revolves around kicking and punching wasn't designed for kicking and punching? :uhoh:

 

[EddieCyrax]

I train in both Kempo and BJJ......I hate to tell everyone that I have applied kata in BJJ.

Structure, positioning, applied efficiency of motion.....

Perhaps you dont recognize it when you see/feel it.....as you havent trained it with the proper emphasis.

The benefit of kata is not a beginner or novice concept.....

I am now leaving this conversation as it has become quite circular.....

 

[ballen0351]

So an art that revolves around kicking and punching wasn't designed for kicking and punching? :uhoh:

Sparring is not real You do understand that right? So Arts were not designed around pretend kicking and punching.

 

[Hanzou]

Sparring is not real You do understand that right? So Arts were not designed around pretend kicking and punching.

Sparring is the laboratory where you develop your individual fighting style, along with timing, power, and other attributes.

So do you honestly believe that TKD girl's fighting style would alter dramatically if she was fighting someone on the street?

I don't.

 

[ballen0351]

Sparring is the laboratory where you develop your individual fighting style, along with timing, power, and other attributes.

No its a game or practice its NOT real and is nothing like a real fight

So do you honestly believe that TKD girl's fighting style would alter dramatically if she was fighting someone on the street?

I don't.

I have no idea I dont train TKD, I dont know her, her teacher, or the situation she will be found in. You cant make a determination about what people will and wont do off a youtube clip. Well you can I guess but I wont

Anyway we will just agree to disagree since we are moving to far away from the OP's question and have moved to the effectiveness of Sparring which is a totally different topic to which Im sure we wont agree since to me Sparring is not very important and borderline useless

 

[ballen0351]

Sparring is the laboratory where you develop your individual fighting style, along with timing, power, and other attributes.

how you feel about Sparring is how I feel about Kata