Limits on sharing information

[bencole]

As long as we don't see the info next year in some Koga Kiddies' training manual.

This is precisely why putting together some laserprinted, ring-bound thing only available via email from Don Roley is such a *BAD* idea, imo.

If you are going to go through all the trouble to write the darn thing, do it right, Don. Don't reason your way out of doing justice to your hard work, by selling some slapped together manual.

Something like that will *NEVER* get respect, which would be a shame in my opinion.

You need an ISBN number. You need it to be bound, either paperback or hard cover. You need it to *LOOK NICE* and *FEEL NICE,* not look like it was slapped together in the corner of your bedroom on Monday night when the email arrived. You want the book in the Library of Congress!!!

I honestly do not care if you avail yourself of Brian or me in the process. Just do it right, PLEASE!!!

It would be a tremendous disservice to your hard work to do otherwise.

If you want people to reference the material on a regular basis, you need to make something that people (1) can look at frequently (and it not get worn), (2) can actually *FIND* a copy (without having to know Don Roley's personal email address, and (3) actually believe that you care enough about your hard work to not make it look like something made at Kinko's for a high school project.

There are lots of options, Don. Please, please forget the idea of lugging some hole-punching machine to Japan so you can slap things together on Monday nights.

Just do it right, or more than just me will be severely disappointed. You know my email address.

-ben

 

[jks9199]

Another idea to consider is self-publishing it as an electronic book on CD. That way -- you don't have any issues with bindings. It's up to the guy who prints it for himself.

The only catch I can see is that issue of printing multiple copies... But the guy who prints a dozen copies off your CD is the same guy who's going to take your book into Kinkos and run a dozen copies off. (Or, even more likely, do it at his job on the office copier when he's supposed to be working...)

 

[Cryozombie]

Don,

That link I pmed you does ring binding like that... if you decide thats the route you wanna go...
​

 

[Don Roley]

As long as we don't see the info next year in some Koga Kiddies' training manual.

That is a concern. And I am of two minds on the subject.

On one side is trying to keep the knowledge to just those that can be trusted with it.

The problem with that is that I just dealt with a case of someone being talked about over at e-budo. This woman claims to be a member of a Koga ryu honbu dojo in Tokyo- which of course does not seem to exist and she is not willing to give an address.

One of her defenders tried to say that years ago she revealed information about the ninja that no other Koga ryu practicioner knew and tried to put forward that as proof that she had some real instruction. Of course, I quickly pointed out that if noone else had heard of it, there was a real chance that she just made it up.

But what if someone like her got her hands on my book and revealed it to certain Bujinkan members to 'prove' to them that she was from a related tradition? The Bujinkan members would know that the knowledge was supposed to be not common knowledge and think she got it from some Koga ryu master.

Oh and then there is the matter that we confirmed that she had a modest rank in Toshindo and also claimed to be a Bujinkan member at one point. So if I try to keep this to just Bujinkan members, I do not doubt that someone wanting to set themselves up as a Koga ryu master like her would get the book before doing so.

Maybe I should just give up the idea of trying to keep this all a secret. I am still in debate with myself.

 

[Rook]

That is a concern. And I am of two minds on the subject.

On one side is trying to keep the knowledge to just those that can be trusted with it.

The problem with that is that I just dealt with a case of someone being talked about over at e-budo. This woman claims to be a member of a Koga ryu honbu dojo in Tokyo- which of course does not seem to exist and she is not willing to give an address.

One of her defenders tried to say that years ago she revealed information about the ninja that no other Koga ryu practicioner knew and tried to put forward that as proof that she had some real instruction. Of course, I quickly pointed out that if noone else had heard of it, there was a real chance that she just made it up.

But what if someone like her got her hands on my book and revealed it to certain Bujinkan members to 'prove' to them that she was from a related tradition? The Bujinkan members would know that the knowledge was supposed to be not common knowledge and think she got it from some Koga ryu master.

Oh and then there is the matter that we confirmed that she had a modest rank in Toshindo and also claimed to be a Bujinkan member at one point. So if I try to keep this to just Bujinkan members, I do not doubt that someone wanting to set themselves up as a Koga ryu master like her would get the book before doing so.

Maybe I should just give up the idea of trying to keep this all a secret. I am still in debate with myself.

Someone wanting to set up a fraudulent organization wouldn't need to know anything about any tradition - 30 years of Ashida Kim confirms that pretty well.

The people frauds want credibility from first is going to be their prospective students... the more people have the resources to "out" them as frauds sooner, the better chance there is of nipping the neo-ninja empires in the bud.

The arts that have the largest numbers of frauds are often the ones people know little about - there are lots of fake ninja school because normal people wouldn't be able to identify the difference. There are few fake judo schools, free style wrestling schools etc. precisely because it is easy to get information on them, which allows normal people to check the validity of what they are being taught.

 

[bencole]

The arts that have the largest numbers of frauds are often the ones people know little about - there are lots of fake ninja school because normal people wouldn't be able to identify the difference. There are few fake judo schools, free style wrestling schools etc. precisely because it is easy to get information on them, which allows normal people to check the validity of what they are being taught.

I agree. Don Roley cannot personally quash every neo-ninja in every venue on earth. He may try, but he must limit his reach to a few boards online. Don Roley is human and has a family with whom he enjoys spending time.

The words of Don Roley, available in a citable book that is available for purchase by people in small town America, will do more to reduce the influence of these jokers than Don Roley's occasional rant on the subject on Martial Talk or Kutaki no Mura. No offense to these venues, of course.

That is the beauty of citable research--people can *CITE* it, rather than point people to random conversations on impermanent bulletin boards.

Don Roley's book should be in libraries.

-ben

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am in agreement with Ben that Don should write some books. Particularly since I love to read about martial arts. Give it a try
Don!

 

[jks9199]

The arts that have the largest numbers of frauds are often the ones people know little about - there are lots of fake ninja school because normal people wouldn't be able to identify the difference. There are few fake judo schools, free style wrestling schools etc. precisely because it is easy to get information on them, which allows normal people to check the validity of what they are being taught.

I agree. Don Roley cannot personally quash every neo-ninja in every venue on earth. He may try, but he must limit his reach to a few boards online.
...

That is the beauty of citable research--people can *CITE* it, rather than point people to random conversations on impermanent bulletin boards.

I think these are good points; there's a lot of questionable info out there about the Bujinkan (and for that matter, the other x-kans). The more solid information that gets out, in a credible manner, the more people will be able to identify the frauds -- or at least be able to be a knowledgable consumer.

If you're concerned about it -- restrict the sale to certain channels. But even then, you can't rely on it. I've seen material from The Manual of the Bando Discipline, which is a private publication only sold through the ABA, on the internet. There's always someone out there who thinks they know better or that they're special or just plain doesn't give a damn about the author's wishes...

Honestly, depending on the material, I'd love to read a book Don wrote. But, to me, if he chose to keep it as Bujinkan-only, that's his choice.

 

[bencole]

Honestly, depending on the material, I'd love to read a book Don wrote. But, to me, if he chose to keep it as Bujinkan-only, that's his choice.

Keeping it "Bujinkan only" will be impossible. People come and go all the time.

Undeserving people will get a hold of the book. Deserving people will get a hold of the book.

In the end, the more information that is out there, the better.

-ben

 

[jks9199]

Keeping it "Bujinkan only" will be impossible. People come and go all the time.

Undeserving people will get a hold of the book. Deserving people will get a hold of the book.

In the end, the more information that is out there, the better.

-ben

I would've sworn I said something like that... :wink:

Let me rephrase slightly. If it's Don's desire that the book be kept within the Bujinkan -- I will respect his wishes. I only wish everyone would...

 

[Don Roley]

The arts that have the largest numbers of frauds are often the ones people know little about - there are lots of fake ninja school because normal people wouldn't be able to identify the difference.

I have always thought that the reason there were so many frauds in ninjutsu was because people actually seem to think that the excuse of secrecy is a valid one with ninjutsu. If anyone in Karate or Bando said they could not show you proof that they had a real teacher due to secrecy, they would be laughed out of the room. But the image of the ninja seems to attract people that will accept that the guy on the corner had a teacher, but just can't reveal it do to some sort of secret ninja war.

Anyways...

I have been exchanging e-mails and it looks like I will be putting out two works.

The first one will be geared towards Bujinkan members. It will have stuff about ninjutsu, but will also have stuff about the Kuki family and non- ninjutsu stuff like the Nyoibo. I hope that I can help people understand why we do certain things in the Bujinkan with this work. But I don't think it would get a very wide acceptence by the public at large since things like what a suigun is can't be justified in a book with a title about ninjutsu.

The other book will be done through one of the profesional book binders that has been reccomended by so many. This book will be about only ninjutsu and I will try to get it in the hands of as many of the general public as possible. I hope that maybe libraries might choose this book rather than ones by Ashida Kim when looking for books on ninjutsu. I will drop the stuff like the sharin from the Kukishinden ryu and replace it with a lot of stuff about Fujita Seiko and strategies/weapons/history from other traditions than those found in the Bujinkan.

I can get the first book done (after I talk to some people here in Japan for their advice and blessing) probably by this summer where I would pick up the book binding machine. Then I would make as many copies as needed as the orders come in. I would then start the other book using the stuff on ninjutsu from the first book as a base and adding to it. I need more time for the later book because (believe it or not) there are still some books here in Japan on ninjutsu I have not read.

What do people think?

 

[bydand]

I was just about to post the question if you had come to any conclusions yet. Right now I don't think you could wipe the smile off my face if you tried! Sounds like a great bit of news to all in the Bujinkan, (and offshoots as well.) Let me know the costs and dates as I would LOVE to add these to my library. As for the professionally bound book, I would get a couple of copies to donate to the local libraries here if I could swing it.

 

[paolo_italy]

hello from italy,

I think there is a big need of good books around the world.
speaking about my country, the situation is a disaster both outside and inside (mainly) the bujinkan.

the new frontier here seems: to be recognized as bujinkan (even with a super-dan) and then to teach your own stuff (worse than frauds).

I hope a few more good books will help people in opening the eyes.

In brief, I can't wait!! :uhyeah:

Bye,

Paolo

 

[Don Roley]

As for the professionally bound book, I would get a couple of copies to donate to the local libraries here if I could swing it.

They may not take it. There are a lot of issues involved. More likely your donated copies would be given to a book store they run to raise funds for the library.

And you do not have to wait for my book to come out- if it ever does. (Hell, I put things off like most people do.) S. Turnbull has a book out from Ospery that is decent. It is a little thin, but there are no errors in it.

My suggestion is for everyone to try to talk to their local librarian about the matter and suggest Turnbull's book for them to pick up. Since Turnbull is not part of our orginization, the librarians will be a lot less suspicous about getting the book. His credentials are well know and verifiable.

If we can get his book to be picked up instead of something from Ashida Kim we all can help out. If you want to make a difference, don't wait for me to do something- talk to your librarians this week.

 

[Rook]

I have always thought that the reason there were so many frauds in ninjutsu was because people actually seem to think that the excuse of secrecy is a valid one with ninjutsu. If anyone in Karate or Bando said they could not show you proof that they had a real teacher due to secrecy, they would be laughed out of the room. But the image of the ninja seems to attract people that will accept that the guy on the corner had a teacher, but just can't reveal it do to some sort of secret ninja war.

Most people who send their kids to the local karate, judo or wrestling schools don't know what lineage is, why it is important or how to verify one. Heck, wrestling doesn't even have a concept of lineage.

 

[Bigshadow]

Most people who send their kids to the local karate, judo or wrestling schools don't know what lineage is, why it is important or how to verify one. Heck, wrestling doesn't even have a concept of lineage.

I believe that those people initially start out doing that as a hobby and if it ever turns into a life path, then those issues will come up. But until then, I agree it probably wouldn't be important to the casual hobbiest.

 

[Shicomm]

In general in don't see any problems in sharing information on the web.
Not everything pops up straight away on google's first page so if you're seeking for something very specific you'll have to do some work

The beauty of the network is in the fact that everybody is able to share, so why shouldnt we ?
There is indeed the thing of the frauds and wannabe's but they'll be around even with the least amount of public info available.

On the other hand ; maybe it is a good point to not just spoon feed the info.
Just give the basics and point in a direction of search