On Responsibility and the Dissemination of information

[Flying Crane]

Fair enough.

Based off my experience as a student in the age of the internet, where I voraciously searched for everything in any media source related to kenpo and later kali, I can categorically say that it didn't harm my progression in those arts. I base this on my rate of advancement through the underbelt ranks that was faster than average. I can say that the knowledge gained from that research made be a better martial artist and kenpoist than I would have been without it.

In my experience as an instructor, which has only been in the age of the internet, I have NEVER seen a student be harmed or his growth stunted by researching other sources. At worst it is a good discussion point about why we do what we do, and that is exactly what I am supposed to be doing as an instructor.

There is a difference between doing research on the internet, and asking the members of a forum to fix his technique. If you read his OP in the kenpo thread, he came on with a shopping list of techs and was asking people to help fix what he was doing.

He may not have used those exact words, but that is really what he was asking. Here is his OP, without any lead-in or other clarification:

Question1:
Twirling wings. In my curiculum, it says that my 2nd elbow should be executed int o a left figting horse (facing 9 o'clock). But won't this horse stance give us a bad bracing angle??? I prefer to do it in a neutral bow.

Question2:
Chrushing hammer. Is this technique in family with chrashing wings #16 orange belt technique. Both steps behind with "7" and lifts head with obscure elbow, and 1st hits the groin, in chrushing hammer hits the ribs.

Question3:
Captured leaves. Does elbows straight in, whereas in twirling wings the elbows are horizontal. Familiy?

Question4:
Calming the storm. The last hits to the right lower ribs, is done while counterrotating or? I think the rotation is focused on the waiter check, but in everyother technique, we expect the person to move his hands, to where hes last hit - why do we have to check the hand which isn't there?

Question5:
Reversing Mace. Do you move your right foot, slightly - or is it nailed to the ground, i get a much better more accurate and powerfull effect if i can move it slightly...

Question6:
Obscure wing. If the guys has straight arm, how can you reach with midrange weapon elbow. This technique is done vs. someone close and with bend elbow - right?

Question 7:
Raining Claw. I like splitting in this technique, but my teacher says i can't since we haven't moved ourself away from the target. My argument is mirrage of gravity to the arm and the raining claw coming simoultaneously.

Question 8:
Obscure sword. Is the guy dragging you back, or just holding you? Or do you pin his hand and step forward dragging him along into the obscure sword?

Thanks for your time and Patience.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, I got that. Does it necessarily follow that he's a true beginner in kenpo? Obviously there's a whole lotta acreage between Yes and No...

Would you suggest that after six months, he is NOT a beginner in kenpo?

 

[dancingalone]

Would you suggest that after six months, he is NOT a beginner in kenpo?

Define beginner. To me a beginner is a complete newbie who doesn't know what questions to ask. He's in the stage of copying the guy in the front of the class. The guy we're talking about is clearly beyond that stage. He's reading up on the principles of the EPAK system and is trying to relate it with his prior experience to better understand EPAK.

Nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with your own answer either as this is all opinion.

 

[Carol]

I'm not sure what you are getting at here... were you a newbie in that example?

Yup. Started up in July 05, so that's me at 7 months in...with no prior MA training at all.

Was there a reason you could not ask your teacher?

A few reasons.

Y'all are online and available 24/7, my teachers were not, nor were they available by phone or e-mail.

I didn't have the chance to ask the question in class because with one of the teachers (the one that also taught BJJ) on vacation, the other teachers were overwhelmed.

I thought about the question when surfing MT, and had the chance to collect my thoughts and voice them in a concise manner. I didn't always have the chance to in class. Ya know, its hard being a newbie and all...esp. when you get all this strange terminology thown at you.

Personally, I think I would have given you that advice had I seen this thread at the time.

I believe you. I bet other people would have too, even as a noobie I tried to be respectful of everyone's time and knowledge when I asked the question...my respect paid off, I received some valuable input.

I'm not in a position to judge how well it turned out for you. But I suspect that working with your instructor some more to iron it out would have given you better results that Michael Edward's guidance did.

Its not either/or. I was not taking private lessons at the time, I was in a regular class. More often than not, no one has unlimited time, and no one has unlimited time with their instructor. Especially being the enginerdy type, I'm a bit shy in real life...particularly when I don't have 100% confidence over the situation I am.

What Michael did was give me a description of the techniques, as well as his input as to where people struggle. That, in turn, helped me understand where my weaknesses may be. In this case, he helped me discover a pattern of areas where I was having trouble He also helped me voice better and clearer questions when I did have a chance to speak with my instructor.

Had I not asked what I did, I would have said "The way we did Tripping Arrow and Falling Falcon in BBC last week confused me a bit..." This is a rather generic statement, no? Its not even a question. So what answer would a teacher give? It might be different than the answer I got to the question that I asked.

I mentioned to my instructor that the way we did the two techs confused me a bit, and that I have come to realize that where I am struggling is when my limbs are moving in different directions. I noticed this last week as well when we were working on (a different technique). I think I'm having trouble with developing what drummers call 'four limb independence'. I am having trouble learning, and performing, the techniques that utilize this concept. Could you please help me with this?

That advice, helped me to eventually verbalize this question, which dramatically shaped how I approached my training after that.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=537985&highlight=kinesthetic#post537985

I really don't think a beginner asking questions online is silly. Some ways of going about it may be more advisable than others, but I think some of us ask some good questions.

 

[Flying Crane]

Define beginner. To me a beginner is a complete newbie who doesn't know what questions to ask. He's in the stage of copying the guy in the front of the class. The guy we're talking about is clearly beyond that stage. He's reading up on the principles of the EPAK system and is trying to relate it with his prior experience to better understand EPAK.

Nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with your own answer either as this is all opinion.

well, he's definitely having trouble with the techs that he's already learned. Otherwise he wouldn't have come on to ask for corrections.

 

[Shifu Steve]

I'm also highly skeptical when someone mentions advanced techniques. If you look at the best champions in any combat sport you'll notice they all use the same techniques as beginners are taught, the basics. They are basic because that's what you will use the most. The champions use the same techniques, they are just better at them and at using them than everyone else. That's why they are champions. If the advanced techniques theory were true then we would see champions using advanced techniques.
Look at any champion boxer, they use the same jab, cross, hooks, uppercuts as any beginning boxer is taught. It's just that they are alot better at using them.

Amen. Once you figure out the major concepts involved behind the techniques the "mystery" dissolves and at that point the only thing separating the men from the boys is practice and a willingness to be critical of yourself and what you're doing.

 

[dancingalone]

well, he's definitely having trouble with the techs that he's already learned. Otherwise he wouldn't have come on to ask for corrections.

You think so? You might be right.

My thought was that he probably does the techs fine in the so-called 'ideal phase' but he wants to break through that ceiling and internalize whatever concepts those techs are supposed to convey.

 

[Flying Crane]

I really don't think a beginner asking questions online is silly. Some ways of going about it may be more advisable than others, but I think some of us ask some good questions.

Thanks for the response, Carol.

And let me clarify: I never suggested, nor intended to imply, that newbies should not ask questions.

Rather, I think some kinds of technical information does not transfer well thru the internet discussion venue, and in that case, the best advice is, "you should ask your instructor".

You got some benefit from your exchange, and that helped you. OK, it can happen. But in the main, I still think the better advice is, go talk to your instructor about it.

Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice? When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this". Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice? Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?

Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?

 

[Flying Crane]

You think so? You might be right.

My thought was that he probably does the techs fine in the so-called 'ideal phase' but he wants to break through that ceiling and internalize whatever concepts those techs are supposed to convey.

well maybe. But the way it reads to me, he sort of understands them but he isn't comfortable with them yet. He's got his own ideas on how some of it might be done, do he wanted some validation or clarification for it.

in my opinion, that's a perfect reason to work with his instructor.

I can only give advice based on my opinion. My opinion is based on my interpretation of the facts, and how they relate to my own experiences.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice? When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this". Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice? Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?

Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?

That's not a bad response at all, FC; but, by the same token, having a discussion online isn't so bad, either. As I suggested earlier, I wouldn't dream of arguing with my instructor based on what I learned on a forum. Even this forum. There is a high level of experience, intelligence and skill here. It would surely be a sad, sad thing if every nub recieved 'Go ask your instructor' as an answer for every question.

I suppose one needs to feel, perhaps, that they're talking with someone that has some sense before dispensing advice; but, I don't think caution should be the basis for refusing a discussion.

 

[dancingalone]

Rather, I think some kinds of technical information does not transfer well thru the internet discussion venue, and in that case, the best advice is, "you should ask your instructor".

You got some benefit from your exchange, and that helped you. OK, it can happen. But in the main, I still think the better advice is, go talk to your instructor about it.

Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice? When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this". Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice? Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?

Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?

It is not a bad answer at all, but it's probably one more suited to a FAQ than a regular reply inside a thread. Kinda gets back to what I said way, way back in this thread about MT being awfully pointless if we didn't talk about technique. "Ask your instructor" would be a valid reply to any question posed here. But it would be very dull indeed to read it time and time again.

 

[Blindside]

There is a difference between doing research on the internet, and asking the members of a forum to fix his technique. If you read his OP in the kenpo thread, he came on with a shopping list of techs and was asking people to help fix what he was doing.

If I ask the question: "do you do a hack or a slice to the neck on the second hand motion of "Five Swords?" Is that research or is it me trying to "fix what I am doing?" And is it unanswerable on this forum in your mind?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice? When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this".

IMO no

Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?

IMO no

Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?

IMO no

 

[Xinglu]

When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this". Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice?

Not at all. Likewise do you feel it is bad advice to preface your opinion with "you should run this by your instructor" but here's what I was taught/think/discovered/teach?

Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?

To me, no. However, do you feel that it is your obligation to tell them to ask their instructor? If I don't want to answer someone's question, I just don't post. Have you considered that maybe they have asked their instructor and didn't get an explanation they understood if one at all? I have asked question on here where an instructor simply said, "we do it this way because that is how I was taught and it works for me." I have never included those in such posts because quite frankly it is irrelevant to the question at hand and no-one else needs to know (as in it wouldn't change any opinion on the question from them at all).

Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?

Not in my book, but is there something objectionable to giving them you opinion and then telling them to talk to their instructor about that? Sometimes the student doesn't know the question to ask, and sometimes we can give them that by taking the time to consider their question.

 

[Xinglu]

Michael, in light of this post, I have a question for you. In your opinion do you feel that sites such as this one should have a rank requirement to participate? If so, how is this enforced and what do you do with styles that don't have ranks or levels?

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael, in light of this post, I have a question for you. In your opinion do you feel that sites such as this one should have a rank requirement to participate? If so, how is this enforced and what do you do with styles that don't have ranks or levels?

absolutely not, and I never meant to imply such.

 

[Flying Crane]

If I ask the question: "do you do a hack or a slice to the neck on the second hand motion of "Five Swords?" Is that research or is it me trying to "fix what I am doing?" And is it unanswerable on this forum in your mind?

How I interpret your question is actually a judgement call that I need to make, for myself.

Knowing that it's you, I'd say it's research. I know you've got experience. And you are initiating a discussion about one tech.

When someone with six months in the system comes in with a shopping list of techs, and is asking for corrections, then he's asking people to fix what he is doing.

 

[Carol]

Thanks for the response, Carol.

And let me clarify: I never suggested, nor intended to imply, that newbies should not ask questions.

Rather, I think some kinds of technical information does not transfer well thru the internet discussion venue, and in that case, the best advice is, "you should ask your instructor".

You got some benefit from your exchange, and that helped you. OK, it can happen. But in the main, I still think the better advice is, go talk to your instructor about it.

Isn't that what I did? Didn't I demonstrate an example of how asking a question online lead to a more effective question for my instructor?

Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice? When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this". Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice? Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?

Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?

I don't think its bad advice, no. And I don't feel that anyone should be obligated to answer a question that they don't want to answer. I also don't think it is unreasonable to question the poster, or be critical of the poster. I have learned a lot from people that gave me technical input, I have also learned a lot from people that have suggested that I might be on the wrong path. In the question I posted, it is clear that I do have an instructor. Had I posed the question differently, I would not have minded someone asking if I had an instructor.

I also really don't think its fair to ask someone for a brain dump of information. It doesn't make for the best discussion either.

The only thing that I find mildly objectionable is the assumption that knowledge most only come from one's teacher and that knowledge from other sources can't supplement another person's learning.

I know from years of experience as a support engineer that that explaining a technical concept three different ways leads to greater retention than explaining a technical concept one way, three times.

So...no, I don't agree the best way is to ask one's instructor. I think in some cases best way might be to ask one's instructor. In other cases, it may be to get more information and to ask more focused questions of your instructor. Do I think that should oblige you in to answering? Heck no. But I won't let it stop me from asking a respectful question, either.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not at all. Likewise do you feel it is bad advice to preface your opinion with "you should run this by your instructor" but here's what I was taught/think/discovered/teach?

I think that is very reasonable.

To me, no. However, do you feel that it is your obligation to tell them to ask their instructor? If I don't want to answer someone's question, I just don't post.

I think that a lot of people expect to get the answers that they want and demand, right now. I think that these people expect things to be handed to them on a platter. I think that our Instant Gratification Society has conditioned people to believe they have a right to this. I think that much of this stuff is complex and nuanced and subtle enough that it does not transfer well on a platter. I think that pointing this out to somebody might give them a different perspective, and help them realize that they might not be going about their information-gathering in the best way.

Do I have an obligation to tell this to them? No. But as I stated in my OP, how many of us complain about the decay of the martial arts? In my opinion, this can contribute to that decay. So instead of complaining, I'll do my small part and point out to someone when there might be a better way for them to get their information.

Have you considered that maybe they have asked their instructor and didn't get an explanation they understood if one at all?

that is an unfortunate situation. I don't know the answer to it. If his instructor cannot communicate clearly, or simply doesn't know the answer, maybe he's not a good teacher. But that doesn't mean getting his technical info thru internet discussions is a good way to fill in the gaps. Instead, he might need to consider finding a better teacher.

Not in my book, but is there something objectionable to giving them you opinion and then telling them to talk to their instructor about that? Sometimes the student doesn't know the question to ask, and sometimes we can give them that by taking the time to consider their question.

that can be a reasonable and balanced way to approach it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I also don't think it is unreasonable to question the poster, or be critical of the poster. I have learned a lot from people that gave me technical input, I have also learned a lot from people that have suggested that I might be on the wrong path.

bingo, particularly the bolded portion. That's really my point.

going back to the example from the kenpo forums, I think the OP was offended simply because he was told he might be on the wrong path, instead of just giving him what he asked for. That was really my problem with the whole thing from the beginning. He got advice that he didn't like and it upset him, even tho he was asking for advice.

But I won't let it stop me from asking a respectful question, either.

nor should it.