On Responsibility and the Dissemination of information

[pete]

Since the OP's questions were replanted upstream in this thread, I'll repost my response to each questions, for the most part to illustrate one way of handling such questions that require some homework on the part of the OP and likely consultation with his instructor.

Question1: why the emphasis on bracing? bracing limits mobility, while another option may be to follow the force rather than brace against it.

Question2: i've seen families and categories defined various ways, from the nature of the attack to the physical interpretation of your motion. can be a good tool to practice different technique applications, but a bad idea to categorize for the sake of categorization.

Question3: first get familiar with small digit manipulations (chin-na) and feel how the tendons of each finger engage to control the spine... work this with your instructor or training partner until there is understanding and a level of control in the lock being applied, then see what works & doesn't work in the technique to dissolve and counter it.

Question4: review methods of generating power, through stance changes, footwork, shifting weight, and twist/unwinding like a spring. also, this is a weapon defense, so understand where the weapon is and may be going when applying checks.

Question5: all power is generated from the feet. move them purposefully.

Question6: if you cant reach him, he cant reach you... where is the problem?

Question 7: look for the circles, and use them to draw your opponent into your technique.

Question 8: if someone grabs you and doesn't push or pull, its not an attack but perhaps a manly hug, as in 'i love you man'. enjoy.

i don't have a problem with your opinion being what it is, what i do have issue with is posturing it as if it is 'the one true way' and all others should stand down... irrespective of any rank and seniority that may accompany that opinion, i disagree.

pete.

 

[MattJ]

So what is the experience of the many instructor's on this board with students who are seeking information from the internet or other media?

When I was teaching, I encouraged students and fellow instructors to seek alternate sources of info about their training. If they found something different, we would all examine it to see if it was useful or not. If it was, then we all learned something. The more you search, the more you find.

When we talk of being aware of our surroundings, does that mean we ONLY look forward? Or do we check other directions, too?

 

[MattJ]

going back to the example from the kenpo forums, I think the OP was offended simply because he was told he might be on the wrong path, instead of just giving him what he asked for. That was really my problem with the whole thing from the beginning. He got advice that he didn't like and it upset him, even tho he was asking for advice.

FC, with all due respect, that is a gross mischaracterization of what happened. He was not offended simply because he was told to ask his instructor. He was offended because Doc asked him if he even had one. Huge difference in tone, and one that several of us found objectionable.

The level of detail in his questions showed clearly that he had instruction.

 

[Flying Crane]

FC, with all due respect, that is a gross mischaracterization of what happened. He was not offended simply because he was told to ask his instructor. He was offended because Doc asked him if he even had one. Huge difference in tone, and one that several of us found objectionable.

The level of detail in his questions showed clearly that he had instruction.

yes, I have already agreed to disagree with you on this.

 

[MJS]

I don't think the concern is centered around what the student learns. I think there is more of a concern from the responder's standpoint as to how the responder's investment in time is going to be used. Is it really to help someone learn Kenpo or is it to help someone become a 10th dan in their own abomination of an art say "yep, this includes Kenpo" or do something else perceived to be bad for the art.

Personally I don't support withholding information, in general. I think the more widely an art is documented, the more consistent its practitioners will become, because their is more material to base a hard standard. The challenge becomes motivating to share what they know in a beneficial manner. Simply pressuring someone to do so is not sufficient.

But...that is just my opinion as someone that has never been an instructor.

Nice post Carol. I thought I posted what I'm about to say in my other posts, but maybe I didn't. Anyways....in many cases, people are not fortunate enough to train directly with the source or a secondary source thats close to the original source. For example...one of my main Arnis instructors spent quite a bit of time with Prof. Presas. He is one of six, that heads up the group I'm a part of. He is within walking distance of my house, so I'm very fortunate to train with him pretty much weekly.

Now, lets say that another student trains under someone that is a 5th, 6th, 7th or more, generation teacher. Things may be changed, lost in translation, from one teacher to the next, perhaps this student doesnt make it up to a 'source' on a regular basis, but he maintains phone or email or forum contact with a source.

Personally, any way that I can gain info. I'll take it. As I said earlier, people will not be around forever, unfortunately. I'm not advocating a students sole learning come from dvd, online training, etc., but if I can get a tip, or something from a source other than a live person, I'll take it.

 

[MJS]

If I were to attend a Kenpo seminar, and I saw a version of, oh, say, 5 Swords, done in a way that was very different to what I do, then head over the the Kenpo forum, and ask, "How does everyone out here in cyber land, do 5 Swords?" is that wrong?

If i were to ask in the BJJ section to describe what methods they use to escape the mount and pass guard, is that wrong?

Now, we can view this 2 different ways. 1) I could be asking simply for other opinions, fullying knowing that I'm more than capable of doing 5 Swords and passing guard and escaping mount. Or 2) I could be asking because I could be new to the orange techs., and really not sure on my escapes and passes.

1 way is asking opinions, the other is asking for what could be deemed technical info. I suppose depending on who you're talking to, that'll determine whether or not the posts will be understood or lost in translation.

 

[Carol]

If I were to attend a Kenpo seminar, and I saw a version of, oh, say, 5 Swords, done in a way that was very different to what I do, then head over the the Kenpo forum, and ask, "How does everyone out here in cyber land, do 5 Swords?" is that wrong?

Nothing wrong with it in my eyes. But even a guy like you...who is no slouch at Kenpo and no stranger to the board...might even get a "WTH are you doing, Mike?" if you started a thread saying "How does everyone in cyber land do 5 swords, hooking wings, sword of destruction, the sleeper, bowing to buddha, blinding sacrifice, and gift in return?" Is it realistic to ask anyone to come up with such results, let alone start a cohesive conversation around it?

To be honest, what raised my eyebrows was that so many techs were being asked about at once. A six month cycle on the 16 tech system permits 1 tech a week for 4 weeks, then 2 weeks review (or something similar). Asking about 8 techs at once is asking about material that would have been conveyed over 3 months of regular training. That is a lot of info.

 

[jks9199]

Thanks for the response, Carol.

And let me clarify: I never suggested, nor intended to imply, that newbies should not ask questions.

Rather, I think some kinds of technical information does not transfer well thru the internet discussion venue, and in that case, the best advice is, "you should ask your instructor".

This -- I agree with. I was on the fence on the responses because of that... But I think that there are perhaps other ways to say that, which might come across less curtly.

You got some benefit from your exchange, and that helped you. OK, it can happen. But in the main, I still think the better advice is, go talk to your instructor about it.

Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice? When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this". Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice? Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?

Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?

I think I've answered this already; I think that there is a better or different way to say it. "Ask your teacher." or "Don't you have a teacher? He or she'll tell you when they want to..." comes across curtly, at least. "Those are really issues you should work with your teacher on; you need to see how they come together and we can't do that on the web" might go down a little better.

And, one generic note on advanced techniques: All an advanced technique really amounts to is a basic technique, done with more principles -- or a few basic techniques put together and done well.

 

[MJS]

Nothing wrong with it in my eyes. But even a guy like you...who is no slouch at Kenpo and no stranger to the board...might even get a "WTH are you doing, Mike?" if you started a thread saying "How does everyone in cyber land do 5 swords, hooking wings, sword of destruction, the sleeper, bowing to buddha, blinding sacrifice, and gift in return?" Is it realistic to ask anyone to come up with such results, let alone start a cohesive conversation around it?

True. Actually what I'd probably be more inclined to do, is maybe post about some findings that I came across while doing technqiues with my teacher, working out with someone from another art, who offered a suggestion that actually blended well with the Kenpo tech., etc.

To be honest, what raised my eyebrows was that so many techs were being asked about at once. A six month cycle on the 16 tech system permits 1 tech a week for 4 weeks, then 2 weeks review (or something similar). Asking about 8 techs at once is asking about material that would have been conveyed over 3 months of regular training. That is a lot of info.

True, unless the Kenpo school is like a mcdojo or the student feels that he's a fast learner, blazes thru the technique, tells the teacher that 'hes got it' and is ready for something else, and in turn, the teacher goes ahead and gives him something else, even though the student needs work on the stuff that he already has.

So, in your opinion, going on what you just said, do you feel that was the case? That the student in question in that other thread, either was asking in advance or had limited knowledge, meaning, he probably had seen the techs. quickly at some point, but didn't spend enough time really working them?

 

[Flying Crane]

1 way is asking opinions, the other is asking for what could be deemed technical info. I suppose depending on who you're talking to, that'll determine whether or not the posts will be understood or lost in translation.

yup, a lot of it is a judgement call and interpretation on the part of the reader and potential giver of information.

 

[Flying Crane]

So, in your opinion, going on what you just said, do you feel that was the case? That the student in question in that other thread, either was asking in advance or had limited knowledge, meaning, he probably had seen the techs. quickly at some point, but didn't spend enough time really working them?

That was definitely the impression that I got. He had learned them but was not yet comfortable with them, and was looking for corrections or validation of his own ideas from the internet.

I posted his OP in this thread back a page or two, you can take a look at how he worded his questions...post #81

 

[Xinglu]

absolutely not, and I never meant to imply such.

I didn't think you meant to, but it did beg the question, and I wanted to ask just in case you did.

I think that a lot of people expect to get the answers that they want and demand, right now. I think that these people expect things to be handed to them on a platter. I think that our Instant Gratification Society has conditioned people to believe they have a right to this. I think that much of this stuff is complex and nuanced and subtle enough that it does not transfer well on a platter. I think that pointing this out to somebody might give them a different perspective, and help them realize that they might not be going about their information-gathering in the best way.

I'm actually disappointed in our society's entitlement complex. I can't tell you how many times I've pissed people off by not answering their questions. Often times I find that people aren't so much asking as they are demanding. Sigh.

that is an unfortunate situation. I don't know the answer to it. If his instructor cannot communicate clearly, or simply doesn't know the answer, maybe he's not a good teacher. But that doesn't mean getting his technical info thru internet discussions is a good way to fill in the gaps. Instead, he might need to consider finding a better teacher.

Hmm, I hate to jump right to that conclusion. Often times, it is because the instructor never had an issue with that part of the material and never asked the questions, thus never got the answers. Too often questions are not welcome (in the more traditional schools), it is up to the student to figure it out, and if you spend 30 years in ignorance, that's your problem). Remember, asking such questions is not always a good thing in eastern cultures. Jumping to bad teacher conclusions isn't always founded, even the best don't have all the answers. Often times the truth is found in "committee" laying somewhere in the middle of all the view points/understandings.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm actually disappointed in our society's entitlement complex. I can't tell you how many times I've pissed people off by not answering their questions. Often times I find that people aren't so much asking as they are demanding. Sigh.

I'm not sure I understand this bit....and I DEMAND an explanation because I am ENTITLED to one... just because I asked

 

[jks9199]

I'm not sure I understand this bit....and I DEMAND an explanation because I am ENTITLED to one... just because I asked

You most certainly are entitled to one.

And here it is:

Because I said so!

(Hey, it worked for my mom!)

 

[Carol]

True, unless the Kenpo school is like a mcdojo or the student feels that he's a fast learner, blazes thru the technique, tells the teacher that 'hes got it' and is ready for something else, and in turn, the teacher goes ahead and gives him something else, even though the student needs work on the stuff that he already has.

So, in your opinion, going on what you just said, do you feel that was the case? That the student in question in that other thread, either was asking in advance or had limited knowledge, meaning, he probably had seen the techs. quickly at some point, but didn't spend enough time really working them?

I think what was going on is that the whole picture didn't add up. The gentleman seemed rather young, and perhaps he was. (You can have 14 years MA experience and still be in high school.) He mentioned he's in the Parker-Planas line but is machine-gunning his way through the techniques in a way inconsistent with the lineage, and in a way that is not respectful of everyone's time.

 

[Blade96]

maybe I should say that of course newbies should ask questions, that is what message boards are kind of for. :uhyeah:

But since the internet is full of every kind of Tom, Dick and Heather, they should be careful about what they read and how people answer because i think people already said they might not be getting the right information....its the net, after all. and they should mostly lean on their sensei (or sifu or dai soke or w/e they have lol)

I asked a question about the mawashi geri - the roundhouse kick to get people's opinions. So I read them, and they are nice. But I will still check with my sensei about how he likes it done.

That's how people should be, I think. Nice to get opinions, but just be careful with what you read.

(not that i think you're bad, dont misunderstand me.) :angel:

 

[Xue Sheng]

you most certainly are entitled to one.

And here it is:

because i said so!

(hey, it worked for my mom!)

Don't take the tone with me young man NOW go to your room!

 

[Brian King]

Is the reply of a post only supposed to be beneficial to the person that asked the original question? I do not know that I really know a single technique so I tend to stay out of technique heavy threads especially in arts I have little experience in, but have read some of those threads with interest. There have been many posts that I have written that I benefited from the writing of them LOL perhaps more than any reading them.

I think that if a person has the time to write then they should write. If a person has passion for a subject then feed that passion and write. If a person feels an obligation to write then they should search within before they write, an obligation to write is most difficult and is a symptom of something that could be unhealthy. If a stranger writes a question as in the example on post 81 of this thread that FC posted, and you legitimately have a passion for one or more those technique things then by all means share, if you read those questions and you had some time and wanted to do a little mental exercise on some specific movement or technique then in my opinion you should write and enjoy the exercise of deeply thinking about a subject then transferring those thoughts into coherent thoughtfully written words. There is often growth from such exercises. I think that if reading those questions from a stranger, and feeling obligated to answer cause they are a beginner and you are an expert or that they are doing the technique wrong and you know how to do it right, there might be a problem with replying right away to the post. More of a problem is if a person feels a compunction to reply to show how much they know or understand there is a problem.

If the person asking the question is helped and gets new understanding that is great and I think likely. That help might come in different forms than what is expected. They may gain insight from seeing their art from other perspectives, seeing from other eyes. They may ‘hear’ something that their instructor has been saying all along but the phraseology was different so that now what their instructor had been telling them all along now makes more sense to them. Perhaps their confusion and frustration will be increased enough that they finally have a conversation with their instructor that makes things more clear and deepens their relationship. Or, perhaps they leave that style or martial arts altogether. Sad yes but long term martial arts study is not for everyone in my opinion. Even if they leave the thread confused that is neutral as they were confused to begin with and who knows that info gleaned may make sense later on in their development.

There are ways it would seem to me of responsibly answering with detail detailed questions if one wished to answer them. “The way I or we do it is“, “your instructor may have valid reasons for doing it that way but I have found for myself or my students this makes sense and I am curious what their reasoning is, perhaps you could ask them for further clarification and get back to us“, “gee I am not sure about the way your instructor does it but I have found for me what works is” Many different ways of sugar coating medicine and none too difficult or time consuming to work into replying posts even if the "you are an idiot and doing it all wrong" rants might feel better LOL.

Most important I think is the realization that you cannot fix or heal everyone so in my opinion so the thing is to gain benefit for yourself while extending the hand, you might help two or more that way but at the very least you help one.

Regards
Brian King