Limits on sharing information

[Don Roley]

Recent events and various threads have got me to thinking about this more the usual lately.

Just how much information should there be out there on the internet about ninjutsu? How much should we be helping people?

I want this board to be a good source for information. Or at least, a source with no bad information. But how much is enough and how much is too much?

In the last few years I have moved away from posting a lot of information about history and things like that and now I mainly try to point people to where they can get more physical training.

There are a few reasons why I do this. First of all, there are frauds out there that try to make what they do sound like the stuff from Japan. Why should I help them to better fool students?

But there are other reasons as well. I think that people should help each other, but that everyone needs to make an effort on their own. So my pointing a finger towards bettering themselves is my way of doing both. If people want to get better, they can do that on their own. I will only tell them how to get to a good instructor or find a good source.

Some people think that we should do more to help people understand. Some people can't make it to Japan, etc, is the cry I hear. Well, we all can't do as much as we would like. I have a family to take care of and I can't get to training five days a week. I do not see how anyone who can owes me a damn thing.

I would like to hear some reasoned and calm discussion about the matter to try to get a better understanding and see if I am missing something.

 

[arnisador]

On the one hand, I see your point--especially with regard to arming frauds with information that they could use to defraud others.

On the other hand, playing "I've got a secret" never comes across well, even when it's appropriate--and all the less so on a discussion board.

It's a tough call, and I don't have the answer.

The issue about going to Japan, though, speaks to commitment. Is there a minimum commitment level that gives a person "buy-in" to information--that allows them to be treated as a comrade? I'm fully committed to Modern Arnis, but I study JKD and BJJ on the side, to augment it. When I practice at home, it's Modern Arnis. This has meant that my BJJ, for example, hasn't advanced as quickly as it could have--but, my focus is where I want it to be. Still, if BJJ people withheld info. from me on that basis, I'd be put off--though I'd understand them not investing a lot of their time in me since it isn't my focus. I guess my question is: Where are you drawing the line between people with whom you'd share and those with whom you would not? Or, is it just that this is public and archived--would you share via PM?

As an aside, this interests me in part because I'm about to spend a year in Albuquerque, NM, where this art is taught, and I'm looking for a temporary place to study. All I want is too expand my knowledge by doing something intersting; I'll still be an arnisador at heart. I was looking at a ninjutsu school website tonight. (I have no idea if it's close to where I'll be living or not, but it's in the same city. I could end up studying anything!) But if I went there and said I was coming for one year only, would I be frozen out of the good stuff?

Again, it's a tough question and I can see why you're grappling with it.

 

[Shogun]

It is a tough call, but I think what Don is refering to is NON practitioners. if you practice BJJ and someone withholds info from you, they are not worth training with, or even talking to. but if you dont train it, they have the right to let you find out for yourself. well, thats my opinion on that matter.

 

[Don Roley]

On the other hand, playing "I've got a secret" never comes across well, even when it's appropriate--and all the less so on a discussion board.

That would be annoying. But I am mainly talking about detailed discussions of kata, moves, etc. There is no secret that I have seen some stuff here in Japan. I am not just willing to be too free with the information.

And as for you New Mexico question, I do not think that anything would be held back because of the limited time you plan on training. But naturally some stuff will be held back until you get the building blocks needed down.

 

[Don Roley]

It is a tough call, but I think what Don is refering to is NON practitioners. if you practice BJJ and someone withholds info from you, they are not worth training with, or even talking to. but if you dont train it, they have the right to let you find out for yourself. well, thats my opinion on that matter.

Well, I was talking about non-practicioners. But I also am talking about helping practicioners.

I have seen people who refused to use the search function and said so. They wanted all their answers laid out for them. They wanted people to spend time typing so they would not have to spend time reading.

In this case, if someone wants answers about kata being taught in Japan, I don't think I should be answering their questions. If I know someone who was here when the kata was being taught I could drop their name and advise people to go see them. But if the other guy is not willing to do that, why should I put out any effort to help them understand the kata?

One thing that Bester wrote kind of sums up my thoughts sometimes.

(name removed), why don't you just ask us all your questions, and we will be more than happy to do all the searching for you. We're out of Silver Platters however, so you'll have to take paper.

Yeah, some people do not have access to resources others have. We all make choices as to what it important in our lives. If someone wants to build up their business or devote time to their family they are not expected to give me time with their kids or part of their paycheck. So why do I see some people seem to say that those that sacrificed to live here in Japan are under an obligation to hand something over on a silver platter?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

That would be annoying. But I am mainly talking about detailed discussions of kata, moves, etc.

Hold on a sec. Is it historical matters or techniques you do not want to inform the fraudsters about?

The latter is something I don't think we need to be concerned about...

 

[Shogun]

The latter is something I don't think we need to be concerned about...

true.
We can say, "capture uke's right hand with you right, then reach across with your left and grasp their lapel." and that kinda stuff but it would be impossible to learn "ninja" from that. The history....yes. if a fraud had detailed historical info, then they could lie easier, couldn't they?

 

[Don Roley]

I don't think they could learn enough to do the techniques. But I thing they could learn enough to fool other people. If they know the language (Koppojutsu, kuzushi, etc) and the movements they do has some sort of resemblence to the Bujinkan guys down the block, the students would be less likely to realize they were not getting the real deal.

 

[arnisador]

But there's enough of that sort of info. in the books by Stephen K. Hayes, and the grandmaster, and otehrs, isn't there?

Heh, maybe these are the same frauds that can't use Search and so reading is too much for them! I agree, there's no excuse for that, esp. since people here will usually point them to it and suggest keywords.

 

[Don Roley]

But there's enough of that sort of info. in the books by Stephen K. Hayes, and the grandmaster, and otehrs, isn't there?

There is some stuff out there. But should we put out more than these people can get from such sources?

Moreover, sometimes people can read things and get the wrong idea. If people are training with a legitimate instructor, they can get their mistaken impressions corrected. If they are a fraud, then they will go to the internet to get corrected and be more like the real deal- but not quite.

One of the first things I think when I hear some of the questions posed on these forums is, "why is he asking here instead of his teacher?" I am very suspicious of questions that would be best asked to a real, live teacher but are instead asked here.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

One of the first things I think when I hear some of the questions posed on these forums is, "why is he asking here instead of his teacher?" I am very suspicious of questions that would be best asked to a real, live teacher but are instead asked here.

These are the most common explanations to that phenomenon in my experience...

a) the guy has already asked his instructor but the instructor is not a shidoshi but a shidoshi-ho running a training group, and thus not as knowledgeable as might be preferable

b) the guy has already asked his instructor and is curious to see if his ideas are supported by other shidoshi

c) the guy is relatively new to the X-kan world and is hesitant to ask his instructor face-to-face.

 

[Shogun]

I have asked questions here that can be found in my school, but the problem lies in how the Bujinkan conducts its "open" concepts. It may not be the answer one is searching for, and they legitimately beleive the right answer for them is out there. so they ask here, where they have access to dozens of Booj guys of all levels.

 

[arnisador]

If people are training with a legitimate instructor, they can get their mistaken impressions corrected. If they are a fraud, then they will go to the internet to get corrected and be more like the real deal- but not quite.

Agreed; Nimravus makes some good points about why asking their instructor maynot be enough for them, though. I can think of others, but your objection still stands.

One of the first things I think when I hear some of the questions posed on these forums is, "why is he asking here instead of his teacher?" I am very suspicious of questions that would be best asked to a real, live teacher but are instead asked here.

I agree. I have the same suspicions. But I feel this way across many forums here--yet, isn't that what a discussion forum is for?

I'm not arguing against your point--I have similar concerns and am also not sure where I want to draw the line. Your art fires the imagination and inspires wholesale frauds, but many instructors add "just a little" stickwork to their art and claim they're teaching arnis. Often they use the terminology in very wrong ways, but worse yet, they're teaching nonsense--hitting incorrectly, blocking incorrectly, using deep horse stances to spar from, etc. We see more of it than you mightthink.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

One might also start in the other end - what is it that enables the frauds to attract students despite obviously questionable credentials? It's not that complicated to cater to people incapable of critical thinking...

 

[Don Roley]

One might also start in the other end - what is it that enables the frauds to attract students despite obviously questionable credentials?

The owner of this site had a great quote that people shop for martial arts instructors like they shop for toasters. Whatever has the lowest price and the most chrome.

Gawd Damn but ain't it true?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I don't think they could learn enough to do the techniques. But I thing they could learn enough to fool other people. If they know the language (Koppojutsu, kuzushi, etc) and the movements they do has some sort of resemblence to the Bujinkan guys down the block, the students would be less likely to realize they were not getting the real deal.

Actually, I think you are doing a service to potential, MATURE, students. The best way to spot a forgery is to be knowledgeable about the real thing - ask any document examiner.

Also, there are enough Bujinkan or offshoot videos out there for an aspiring fraud to get a hold of so I really don't think your posts are enabling them.

Also, as a non-practioner, I have enjoyed reading your posts over the years both here and at E-Budo where I am a lurker. When I had a co-worker who was interested in a home study course offered by a neo-ninja, I was able to point her in the right direction as a result of my Martial Talk and E-Budo education.

Face it, those who want to be fooled, will be fooled. Take a sport karate or tkd McDojo BB with really cool spinning jump kicks and a black suit and the gullible will flock to join. Think of these phonies as a filter - they keep real instructors from having to deal with so many immature "ninjer" wannabees.

Don't get discouraged. Sometimes it's hard not to, but legitimate practioners have the respect of those whose respect is valuable; frauds only have the adulation of the gullible.

 

[Don Roley]

Interesting responses.

One thing else I should throw out- there are people who do have some training in the Bujinkan but have let their ego control them to the point where they no longer think they need a full time teacher. The get by with the DVDs and such. Those types are the folks that now bad- mouth Hatsumi and yet try to use his reputation to attract students.

I really do not want to help people like that. There are new things being shown that old timers say they have never seen. So why should someone who has not bothered to show any loyalty to Hatsumi get a bit of help in trying to make his stuff sound up to date?

 

[DWeidman]

Interesting responses.

One thing else I should throw out- there are people who do have some training in the Bujinkan but have let their ego control them to the point where they no longer think they need a full time teacher. The get by with the DVDs and such. Those types are the folks that now bad- mouth Hatsumi and yet try to use his reputation to attract students.

I really do not want to help people like that. There are new things being shown that old timers say they have never seen. So why should someone who has not bothered to show any loyalty to Hatsumi get a bit of help in trying to make his stuff sound up to date?

Hey Don -

Since there is no quality control on who reads this board - there is no way to make sure the message only gets to who you want it to get to.

If you are really worried about the above scenarios - then it looks like your posting days are over.

I - for one - don't care about any othe situations posted above. Water seeks its own level - and my additional information has little to do with enabling someone who is already of low moral character. frauds will be frauds - and wannabes will be wannabes. In the end - it is all about the taijutsu. If your body speaks - the *right* students will come. And the wrong ones will still be training under the spinning kick guy or the guy who is on his own.

Just my .02.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy.

 

[Shogun]

I think in the end, info can be posted on the web, but we dont need to go spilling everything out there. however, I think if someone asks a question, than its only nice to help them w/the question (I know, I know, Mr Roley is not a nice guy)

 

[Gina]

I feel the problem with the internet is that it is very difficult to vet who is putting the information on the forums in the first place. Although some of the more expererienced members may be able to tell what is true or fraudulent technique there are others that do not. I have to agree with Don Roley here. Kata, technique etc should not be published on the internet.

Only recently i met an ex student of mine who had decided to go his own way. He had not reached black belt but was teaching. He then showed me what he was teaching. And it was pages of kata from the nine schools printed from the internet and without mentioning no names much of the stuff was from very dubious sites.

There are many of us out there studying the Takamatsuden Arts in a honest, responsible, and professional manner. But equally there are people out there who are not. Lets not give these people free information they can use to make money off others. If they want to learn the real Takamatsuden arts let them pay like the rest of us for our training material.

Gary Arthur
(Quest UK, Northants Quest Centre)