LE Myths and misconceptions

[Steve]

QUOTA= 2. a prescribed number or quantity, as of items to be manufactured, imported, or exported, immigrants admitted to a country, or students admitted to a college

If it's not given to you as a quantity (write 10 tickets a week) it's not a quota.

That's true. At the risk of nitpicking, though, you said that you've seen it used as a performance matrix. That involves numbers. Right? If X is considered "productive" and numbers below X are under producing, that (in my opinion) meets the criteria for a quota. Unless the standard is a secret, I can't believe that the officers don't know what number they are expected to produce.

 

[Steve]

If the "pace" on that stretch of road is 15 mph over the limit than some speed enforcement is due for that highway.

If someone is doing 15 mph over past me they are getting stopped. You can't write a ticket for obstructing traffic because someone is doing the speed limit.

Makes sense. I've been on stretches of road where this is the case. We drive down to California fairly often, and the freeways down there are an object lesson in extremes. Either you're crawling along in gridlock, or everyone is literally hauling ***. I usually drive 5 or so above the speed limit, but typically settle for "slightly slower than everyone else" when in California.

 

[Tgace]

That's true. At the risk of nitpicking, though, you said that you've seen it used as a performance matrix. That involves numbers. Right? If X is considered "productive" and numbers below X are under producing, that (in my opinion) meets the criteria for a quota. Unless the standard is a secret, I can't believe that the officers don't know what number they are expected to produce.

The way we do it is comparative to the rest of ones shift..not by raw number. If one officer is 75% below the shift average for traffic tickets (I never saw an actual number of tickets issued in the report I received) without a reason like illness, extended training, special assignment...they will get a talking to.

The shift average could only be a handful of summons depending on the time of year/shift/etc. All they are expected to do is be in the average...and if their productivity in another area like "burglary arrests" is above the shift average all they may be told is "stop a car every once and a while too".

 

[Tgace]

In a nutshell Steve...from a LE Supervisor... a "quota" is a directive from me to my guys saying "you all have a quota of 3 tickets a day...or else".

A performance standard is more like "part of being a patrol cop here is traffic enforcement..if you are not writing some tickets you are not doing your job." "Why is everyone else writing 65% more traffic summons than you?"

 

[Tgace]

Right of Way at intersections seems to be becoming lost knowledge too......

Here's a simple concept...being to the right is not automatically the "right of way" at an intersection. If someone reaches the intersection before you do they have the right of way regardless of your position. Likewise when there's someone ahead of you and they go through you don't simply blow the stop sign and follow them through.

 

[Steve]

In a nutshell Steve...from a LE Supervisor... a "quota" is a directive from me to my guys saying "you all have a quota of 3 tickets a day...or else".

A performance standard is more like "part of being a patrol cop here is traffic enforcement..if you are not writing some tickets you are not doing your job." "Why is everyone else writing 65% more traffic summons than you?"

I get it, Tgace. Are you guys a union shop? (just curious... unions introduce an interesting wrinkle to performance management).

 

[Steve]

Here's a simple concept...being to the right is not automatically the "right of way" at an intersection. If someone reaches the intersection before you do they have the right of way regardless of your position. Likewise when there's someone ahead of you and they go through you don't simply blow the stop sign and follow them through.

I learned to drive in Washington, but was stationed in Germany from age 18 to age 20, so a lot of my driving habits were really developed there. In Germany, they are (or were when I was there) militant about right of way. I saw a German slam into an American car because the American didn't yield proper right of way. It was like, "Yeah? Suck it, American. When the polizei get here, it's YOUR FAULT because you didn't yield!"

So, I take failures to yield right of way seriously. I also get REALLY uptight when people don't TAKE proper right of way. Both are, in my opinion, great ways to cause accidents.

I told my kids that when I teach them to drive, my primary goal is to teach them to drive predictably. It's all about being predictable, more than it is about obeying every law (in my opinion.)

 

[Tgace]

I get it, Tgace. Are you guys a union shop? (just curious... unions introduce an interesting wrinkle to performance management).

Yes we are. However, Police Unions here don't really impact how I supervise all that much.

How I handle call ins for OT? Yes. And I can't summarily force someone to midnights or dock pay w/o process, but the Union really can't stop any form of discipline as long as agreed upon procedure is followed.

 

[Steve]

Yes we are. However, Police Unions here don't really impact how I supervise all that much.

How I handle call ins for OT? Yes. And I can't summarily force someone to midnights or dock pay w/o process, but the Union really can't stop any form of discipline as long as agreed upon procedure is followed.

The impact has to do with the contract, so makes sense. Unions often have significant impact on the appraisal process, and direct comparisons between two employees can be a red flag ("Bob processed 20 tickets and you only did 10. Therefore you're a 3 and he's a 4"). Of course, the contract will have a lot of influence over that.

 

[arnisador]

What many people don't realize is that only one vehicle can wait in the intersection under the yellow light (from each direction). Its the people who don't wait in the intersection, or follow the vehicle in the intersection through the turn who are "blowing the red light".

When I lived in San Jose, CA there was a weekly traffic column in the paper. One time they were asked about this: In a busy city, only one car gets through per light change this way and you could develop a huge backlog of cars waiting to turn, possibly even impeding straight-bound traffic further back. They asked the police dept. about that and received an on-the-record response that while what you say above is indeed the law, it's unworkable in Silicon Valley or other high-traffic areas and that drivers should probably continue to do what they always do--pull into the intersection even if a car is already there so 2-3 cars can go at the end of each green, even though those will probably be turning on red. They did say no one else should pull into the intersection at that point.

I'd have to agree: In many locales that law is simply unworkable.

 

[Steve]

When I lived in San Jose, CA there was a weekly traffic column in the paper. One time they were asked about this: In a busy city, only one car gets through per light change this way and you could develop a huge backlog of cars waiting to turn, possibly even impeding straight-bound traffic further back. They asked the police dept. about that and received an on-the-record response that while what you say above is indeed the law, it's unworkable in Silicon Valley or other high-traffic areas and that drivers should probably continue to do what they always do--pull into the intersection even if a car is already there so 2-3 cars can go at the end of each green, even though those will probably be turning on red. They did say no one else should pull into the intersection at that point.

I'd have to agree: In many locales that law is simply unworkable.

It seems like adding a turn lane with a turn only signal would be a good expenditure of public funds. I mean, come on. Rather than suggest that everyone simply ignore the law, there are practical solutions available.

 

[Tgace]

It seems like adding a turn lane with a turn only signal would be a good expenditure of public funds. I mean, come on. Rather than suggest that everyone simply ignore the law, there are practical solutions available.

Beat me to it.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ballen0351]

The only time I've ever seen a real quota is for OT traffic assignments that are paid by State highway grant funds. They (state highway administration). Set a 4 tickets per hour minimum. If at the end of the grant period when the department turns in the numbers to state highway we don't have at least 4 per hour average for the month they won't give us as much grant money next time.

 

[ballen0351]

I get it, Tgace. Are you guys a union shop? (just curious... unions introduce an interesting wrinkle to performance management).

We are a union shop and they do make it hard for our upper lvl supervisors to manage effectively some times. I'm one of the only patrol officers not in the union. For example if we have a spike in crime at a certain hour of the day. Supervisors can not adjust anyone schedules to add more police at the time of the spike with out 10 days prior notice per the union. So the city is forced to pay OT to cover that spike in crime instead of just moving some officers schedules around so it eats up our OT budget and every year or never fails the last two months of the fiscal year webrun out of OT money and all but emergency OT gets cancelled.

 

[arnisador]

It seems like adding a turn lane with a turn only signal would be a good expenditure of public funds. I mean, come on. Rather than suggest that everyone simply ignore the law, there are practical solutions available.

I'm for obeying the law but that is rarely a practical solution. It's not realistic to assume, in a big city, that space could always be made available. How would that work in Manhattan? And again, the point is rush-hour traffic in a very populated area, where a very long turn lane might be needed. This was the advice given--and has anyone every been cited for being a second car in the intersection waiting to turn unless they failed to clear the intersection before traffic started coming the other way? Clearly the law is meant to prevent that, but I've never known anyone ticketed if they successfully cleared as generally happens.

 

[Steve]

I'm for obeying the law but that is rarely a practical solution. It's not realistic to assume, in a big city, that space could always be made available. How would that work in Manhattan? And again, the point is rush-hour traffic in a very populated area, where a very long turn lane might be needed. This was the advice given--and has anyone every been cited for being a second car in the intersection waiting to turn unless they failed to clear the intersection before traffic started coming the other way? Clearly the law is meant to prevent that, but I've never known anyone ticketed if they successfully cleared as generally happens.

I don't know, but in general, the situation will have been addressed somewhere. In Seattle, major streets have been widened so that they accommodate a center turn lane, and the lights where this is problematic are adjusted to accommodate the traffic.

I am not suggesting that every intersection have a dedicated turn lane. I'm suggesting that the ones that matter do. While I've never been to Manhattan, I have been to San Jose, where I have family, and I can't think of too many intersections that are completely beyond hope. It might take some dough to widen the street and potentially rework sidewalks and such, but it can be done. And if it can't, there are other things that can be done. Traffic circles, like the ones in Long Beach, for example.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. It just seems to me that, even if two or three cars get through on each light, that still sucks. It doesn't seem like a solution to me if cars are backing up.

 

[jks9199]

Unfortunately, many people don't see traffic violations as being a law. They don't see themselves as having done anything wrong. Rarely do I see someone get pulled over 'just because' i.e. they're doing something stupid like speeding, tail-gating, texting while driving etc.

As far a quota's are concerned, it is unofficially called 'self initiated police work' around here and the 'target' is 10 per month. It isn't enforced but 'encouraged'.

No... Last night, I was informed that it wasn't the driver's fault at all that they didn't stop at a stop sign. It was the car's fault that the driver gets "stopped all the time." Um, they'de been to traffic school twice in two years, one voluntary, one court ordered. They've got a self-admitted "bad" record. No -- it was a HORRIBLE record. Kinda surprised they're still licensed -- but they may not be by the end of the year. But, it's "the car's fault."

Quotas: we don't really have a quota where I work. But, if you're not writing an average of a bit over a ticket a work day... your supervisor should be questioning what you're doing, unless they can already explain it. Like having to dispatch a lot, or really taking a lot of reports, making a lot of arrests. Really, otherwise... what are you doing with 12 hours a day?

Interesting take on self initiated activity by a retired cop: Stop Working

 

[jks9199]

Another stupid thing people do to get pulled over is to run a 'stale' green light where the light turns yellow after they have already begun crossing the intersection. Drivers really need to better anticipate when the green light is turning yellow and stop on green. Instead of developing this anticipatory skill they would rather blame the officer for poor judgement. Unfortunately, developing this skill can and has resulted in people getting rear ended by those that lack the skill.

There are places that require you to stop, if able, on the yellow (DC, for example). Generally, you're supposed to use the yellow as a sign that the light will be red shortly, and slow or stop if you won't be able to clear the intersection before it turns red. But, at least in VA, as long as you entered under a yellow light, you're legal. Stopping on a so-called "stale green" seems a recipe for a rear end collision to me...

 

[crushing]

There are places that require you to stop, if able, on the yellow (DC, for example). Generally, you're supposed to use the yellow as a sign that the light will be red shortly, and slow or stop if you won't be able to clear the intersection before it turns red. But, at least in VA, as long as you entered under a yellow light, you're legal. Stopping on a so-called "stale green" seems a recipe for a rear end collision to me...

I completely agree on the "recipe for a rear end collision." There is a cross-walk at an intersection in my home town that has a light to indicate when walkers may cross. I have found that the cross walk light will blink 'Don't Walk' 12 times before the intersection stop light turns from green to yellow. Because of my previous experience and the experiences of many others in the area, as long as no one is right on my tail, I will stop when the traffic light is green if the cross walk light is going on the 10th blink or later. I certainly don't want any tickets. Can stopping on stale green possibly be a ticketable offense as well?

 

[granfire]

Police will patrol expensive neighborhood tracts that have been hit by crime. NO.

LOL, actually yes.
not a patrol patrol, but I have seen the drive bys by the sheriff's department go up considerably after my work place had been broken into several times (a green house, I mean they made off with a valuable welder, but that was all they got, really)

It was fun to see half my crew dive into the flowers...either with outstanding warrants or on probation (and likely violating in some shape or form). Ah, good times!