LE Myths and misconceptions

[Tames D]

In Michigan, it is this way. When the light turns yellow, you must stop if able to safely do so. If you are too close to the intersection or in the intersection, then you proceed through. What MOST people do that earns themselves a ticket is viewing the yellow light as the warning to gun it through the rest of the way before it turns red.

As to quotas. We do not have them. Even our traffic grant guys turn in daily logs that show how many traffic calls and traffic stops that they make each day. They are given leeway on their discreation on whether they give a ticket or just a verbal warning. But, all contacts with the public are documented so when it comes to evaluations a supervisor knows that they were still doing their job. Although, we do have some guys who give everyone they stop a ticket so they can't be faulted for favoritism etc. They do try to encourage traffic tickets written in work sites when the state is paying OT for traffic enforcement in those areas to protect the workers.

Not sure I understand the thinking behind this one. If I'm allowed to enter the intersection on a yellow, then what does it matter if I "gun it" as you put it? As long as I'm not speeding as I enter the intersection, what's the problem? Why should that earn me a ticket?

 

[jks9199]

Not sure I understand the thinking behind this one. If I'm allowed to enter the intersection on a yellow, then what does it matter if I "gun it" as you put it? As long as I'm not speeding as I enter the intersection, what's the problem?

The idea is that the yellow light is a warning that the light is going to change to red. You're supposed to assess if you will be able to stop safely before entering the intersection, or if you need to continue through. You're not supposed to view it as a challenge to beat the red... You're not supposed to be accelerating; the yellow's timing assumes legal speed and normal conditions.

 

[Tames D]

The idea is that the yellow light is a warning that the light is going to change to red. You're supposed to assess if you will be able to stop safely before entering the intersection, or if you need to continue through. You're not supposed to view it as a challenge to beat the red... You're not supposed to be accelerating; the yellow's timing assumes legal speed and normal conditions.

That is what I'm talking about, legal speed and normal conditions. And what are "normal conditions"? I haven't read the manual in awhile, so curious if it gives a definition. Or is it subjective?

 

[jks9199]

That is what I'm talking about, legal speed and normal conditions. And what are "normal conditions"? I haven't read the manual in awhile, so curious if it gives a definition. Or is it subjective?

Legal speed is the posted limit. Normal conditions would be dry & clear, not raining, foggy, snowing, ice covered, etc. The length of a yellow is based on things like line of sight for the approach, traffic speed, and reasonable stopping conditions. It doesn't take into account someone traveling significantly over the limit, or conditions that make stopping harder. Those are things a cop would have to assess if he saw you enter the intersection.

 

[punisher73]

Not sure I understand the thinking behind this one. If I'm allowed to enter the intersection on a yellow, then what does it matter if I "gun it" as you put it? As long as I'm not speeding as I enter the intersection, what's the problem? Why should that earn me a ticket?

jks9199 pretty much summarized it. The point behind it is when you see the yellow light and are going the speed limit, then you should be able to safely come to a stop prior to the intersection. Most people, when they have the chance to stop in a safe assured distance speed up to beat the light before it gets to red. Many times, the light changes while they are in the intersection and they think that "they are safe" because it wasn't red when they entered the intersection.

Now, on the flip side. You ARE going the speed limit, and are almost on top of the intersection when it turns to yellow. You just proceed as normal and no problems. OR if the weather is very bad and you are already driving slower due to conditions and it wouldn't be safe to try and stop when it turns yellow, then you proceed.

It is designed to have traffic stopped and the intersection clear for the other lanes of travel to safely go when their light turns green. I have seen many accidents happen in larger/longer intersections because one lane of travel has their light turn green as they are approaching it at regular speed and another car has tried to gun it through the yellow and it was red as they were entering the intersection. Another one is the car waiting to turn left and the light turns yellow and they try to turn as the approaching car tries to get through the intersection instead of stopping.

 

[jks9199]

Now, on the flip side. You ARE going the speed limit, and are almost on top of the intersection when it turns to yellow. You just proceed as normal and no problems. OR if the weather is very bad and you are already driving slower due to conditions and it wouldn't be safe to try and stop when it turns yellow, then you proceed.

Or you have someone tailgating you and if you were to stop, you'd be rear ended... Yeah, I see that one happen plenty.

It is designed to have traffic stopped and the intersection clear for the other lanes of travel to safely go when their light turns green. I have seen many accidents happen in larger/longer intersections because one lane of travel has their light turn green as they are approaching it at regular speed and another car has tried to gun it through the yellow and it was red as they were entering the intersection. Another one is the car waiting to turn left and the light turns yellow and they try to turn as the approaching car tries to get through the intersection instead of stopping.

It's so bad in a couple of intersections where I live that I commonly see 3 or 4 cars go through while I have a green light.

 

[Steve]

The idea is that the yellow light is a warning that the light is going to change to red. You're supposed to assess if you will be able to stop safely before entering the intersection, or if you need to continue through. You're not supposed to view it as a challenge to beat the red... You're not supposed to be accelerating; the yellow's timing assumes legal speed and normal conditions.

I'm confused about this one, as well. I mean, there's a point where I'm not going to be able to stop, even though I'm not actually in the intersection. So, I'm approaching the intersection and the light is green. Then, it turns yellow and I have to decide whether I can stop or not. If I can't stop, I will typically "gun it" through the intersection. I'm not hauling ***, or anything, but I am clearly accelerating. In my mind, the idea is that I know that the light is changing and I am trying to get through the intersection as quickly as possible. Putting myself in your shoes, trying to evaluate that would seem to be pretty difficult.

 

[Steve]

jks9199 pretty much summarized it. The point behind it is when you see the yellow light and are going the speed limit, then you should be able to safely come to a stop prior to the intersection.

I don't get it. Your ability to stop is completely dependent upon two things: when you see the light change to yellow, and how close you are to the intersection. It has nothing to do with the length of the yellow. Does it?

 

[Tgace]

I'm confused about this one, as well. I mean, there's a point where I'm not going to be able to stop, even though I'm not actually in the intersection. So, I'm approaching the intersection and the light is green. Then, it turns yellow and I have to decide whether I can stop or not. If I can't stop, I will typically "gun it" through the intersection. I'm not hauling ***, or anything, but I am clearly accelerating. In my mind, the idea is that I know that the light is changing and I am trying to get through the intersection as quickly as possible. Putting myself in your shoes, trying to evaluate that would seem to be pretty difficult.

I agree. It would be interesting to see the VTL statutes and compare them. Either its a violation to enter an intersection under a yellow or it's not I would assume. Where I am, if you speed to enter it in time you have violated a speed section of the VTL not the yellow light section...

NY:

http://ypdcrime.com/vt/article24.htm

(b) Yellow indications: 1. Traffic, except pedestrians, facing a steady circular yellow signal
may enter the intersection; however, said traffic is thereby warned that
the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication
will be exhibited immediately thereafter.
2. Traffic, except pedestrians, facing a steady yellow arrow signal
may cautiously enter the intersection only to complete the movement
indicated by such arrow or make such other movement as is permitted by
other indications shown at the same time; however, said traffic is
thereby warned that the related green arrow movement is being terminated
or that a red indication will be ehxibited immediately thereafter.
3. Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal as
provided in section eleven hundred twelve, pedestrians facing any steady
yellow signal are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to
cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway.

The risk you run "gunning it" is missing the yellow light. The split second it turns red you have violated the statute.....

In our VTL failure to use due care only applies when physical injury has occurred.

http://ypdcrime.com/vt/article26.htm#t1146

 

[Steve]

Or you have someone tailgating you and if you were to stop, you'd be rear ended... Yeah, I see that one happen plenty.

That's actually the only accident I've ever been in. I was in San Antonio, and the freeways down there have access roads that follow them along. I had just exited the freeway and was on the access road. The guy in front of me came to a very sudden stop, so I stopped behind him pretty sharply, then I was hit from behind and rammed into the guy in front of me. I was impressed with the cop. The first question he asked was to the guy in front, "How many impacts did you feel?" He replied that he only felt one impact, and voila. I was off the hook. My understanding is that if he had felt two impacts, I would have been at fault for the entire accident.

 

[arnisador]

Have you ever ticketed someone for not yielding to an ambulance? As with the yellow light, I say without exaggeration that I am sometimes worried about pulling over for fear that the guy behind me will crash into me.

 

[Steve]

Have you ever ticketed someone for not yielding to an ambulance? As with the yellow light, I say without exaggeration that I am sometimes worried about pulling over for fear that the guy behind me will crash into me.

That's interesting. Around here, people will pull over for emergency vehicles so far in advance, I usually don't know what they heck they're doing. I'm passing them thinking, "Why did that guy pull over?" And then like 2 minutes later I see the roscos way back on the horizon. (I may be exaggerating a wee bit).

 

[Tgace]

Pulling over doesn't mean spike the brakes and yank the wheel. You pull over safely when possible.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Carol]

Pulling over doesn't mean spike the brakes and yank the wheel. You pull over safely when possible.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for that :asian: This is an issue in the mountains where I volunteer. Once you get outside of the in-town areas, it can be difficult to find a safe place to pull over (especially if you are driving a larger vehicle). Good to know that there is some mutual understanding.

 

[jks9199]

I don't get it. Your ability to stop is completely dependent upon two things: when you see the light change to yellow, and how close you are to the intersection. It has nothing to do with the length of the yellow. Does it?

Yes & no. Let's take a fairly typical business/city type area. Speed limit is posted 25 mph. We'll assume everyone is traveling at 25 mph, or 36.7 ft/sec. You need about 40 ft to skid to a stop, if you lock up all 4 tires. That would take you about 1.8 seconds or so. A reliably typical driver reaction time is about 1.5 seconds under pretty good conditions. (There's some caveats there, but it's a useable number, derived from experimental data.) Honestly, it's probably a bit shorter if the driver knows that he's approaching a light that may change, so is looking for it -- for design and planning purposes, figuring on more time is probably a good thing. I mean, it's not like drivers are ever distracted and not paying attention, right? So... figure 1.8 seconds to stop plus 1.5 seconds to observe and react; that gives us just over 3 seconds to see the yellow and stop, and something like 95 feet. A recommended yellow light time for 25 mph is 3 seconds; dovetails nicely there, huh? Cars more than 3 seconds out should be able to stop in time for the red; cars less than that won't.

Probably clear as mud... but essentially, the length of the light is related to the ability of the driver to recognize and stop before it turns red.

 

[oftheherd1]

Depends on how I worded what I said. I cant tell you "If you tell me what happened you will get a lighter sentence" I dont have that power

...

As it was always explained to me, was that you are an agent of the government, so when you make such a promise, even without authority, you bind the government.

I may have missed it, but the one I hear daily is, "You didn't read me my rights". They think that if the Miranda Warning isn't read automatically when the cuffs go on that it means that the case is invalid (or the ever famous "false arrest"). Drives me nuts when I see this ALL THE TIME on TV.

Sorry, but Miranda is ONLY applicable to an in-custody questioning. It doesn't even apply to an investigative questioning out on the street or during a traffic stop while I'm still gathering information to determine what happened.

I remember during my time in the Army, listening to a couple of agents discuss Miranda and Escobido (remember that?), and telling each other how they simply would never allow a lawyer into their interrogation room during an interrogation. At the time I thought it was a rather silly idea to latch onto. The US military had more rights under the UCMJ than most civilian jurisdictions, including a right not to be compelled to incriminate oneself. The military was actually ahead, although we had our ways to stretch things and still stay within the law. But times changed and we also had to adapt to more suspect rights.

At that time, in most civilian jurisdictions, that, along with a right to an attorney, was considered to apply only in court. After Miranda and Escobido, we developed a long thing about a suspect being able to request a "lawyer, attorney or attorney at law, or any one else" a person wanted for legal advise. On one investigation, I had one person ask to speak to his battalion commander (?), and another ask to speak to the chaplain. Kind of blew my mind, but the latter interviewee allowed us to solve a difficult case.

 

[oftheherd1]

That's interesting. Around here, people will pull over for emergency vehicles so far in advance, I usually don't know what they heck they're doing. I'm passing them thinking, "Why did that guy pull over?" And then like 2 minutes later I see the roscos way back on the horizon. (I may be exaggerating a wee bit).

About 1987, when I got to the general area where I have lived since, people would climb the sidewalks to get out of the way of emergency vehicles, and be there before they arrived. Now they just seem to get irritated if an emergency vehicle makes so much noise behind them that they have to get out of the way. :xtrmshock

 

[arnisador]

Pulling over doesn't mean spike the brakes and yank the wheel. You pull over safely when possible.

I do. But I live in the country with narrow, minimal-shoulder roads right up against the cornfields. Getting all the way off the road is often not feasible, and as I slow the guy behind me does not.

 

[jks9199]

Have you ever ticketed someone for not yielding to an ambulance? As with the yellow light, I say without exaggeration that I am sometimes worried about pulling over for fear that the guy behind me will crash into me.

Yes, actually.

Truth is we can't do it too often because if we're in position to catch them, odds are halfway decent that we're going with the ambulance. But it does happen once in a while... For instance, we were working a big crash, and summoned rescue for one of the driver's involved. (They'd initially said no injuries, but as we worked, that changed.) This was in a location and involved enough cars that several of us were on scene. As fire and EMS are arriving, this car comes up beside them. He gets put in the penalty box -- and the fire captain tells me that he'd been basically racing the fire truck the whole way. Penalty box became an invitation to court...

(Penalty box: we're going to hold you up for a few minutes, correct your behavior, and likely let you on your way with no ticket.)

Another... the guy was right in front of me, and disregarded a fire fighter's traffic control telling him not to enter. Yep -- he got cited, too.

 

[Tgace]

I remember going on a lights and sirens call where I was slowing down to cross an intersection on red....a guy gave me the finger and kept going through his green light in front of me. He probably assumed that since I was going on a call I wasn't going to be able to do anything to him.

Unluckily for him my call was canceled at that exact moment......



Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2