LE Myths and misconceptions

[Steve]

Slight tangent...the "I'm a taxpayer" thing...

Here its property taxes that "pay my salary". So if you are a homeowner do I owe you a different standard of service than I do to a person renting an apartment? Is that guy "paying my salary" or is it the landlord? Since I own a home in my jurisdiction am I paying my own salary?


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Interesting questions. Aren't there places in the country where the firemen will allow a home to burn down if that person doesn't pay into the station's funding?

To answer, I'd expect you provide the same level of service. But that's just me. I generally lump a few things into a broad category of baseline services I think we should all be able to reasonably expect as citizens of the wealthiest country in the world. Healthcare, fire and police services, and a general education come to mind.

Edit: Link to the firestation thing. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39516346/
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again

Apparently, it has happened more than once.

 

[jks9199]

Slight tangent...the "I'm a taxpayer" thing...

Here its property taxes that "pay my salary". So if you are a homeowner do I owe you a different standard of service than I do to a person renting an apartment? Is that guy "paying my salary" or is it the landlord? Since I own a home in my jurisdiction am I paying my own salary?


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I used to have an acquaintance who had calculated the contribution of the average tax payer to his salary, and carried the change to refund it during traffic stops when the driver trotted that one out... (It was small change... I think less than a quarter.)

Realistically, our salaries come out of the general fund. That's made of tax receipts (property, sales, meals, etc) and other income to the jurisdiction. The one thing that doesn't go into that in an identifiable way is ticket income...

 

[crushing]

Here's another one...

Your local PD has the ability to tap your phone.

Ability or authority? If you can use a knife and a butt set you have the ability to tap a phone.

 

[arnisador]

Slight tangent...the "I'm a taxpayer" thing...

Here its property taxes that "pay my salary". So if you are a homeowner do I owe you a different standard of service than I do to a person renting an apartment?

No. But since I own two houses, I'm not opposed to police not wasting money. Incidentally, the people renting our previous home from us do pay property tax--in that I figured that into the rent level. I ain't paying that!

 

[Tgace]

What about the "quota" meme?

I know PD's vary, but I never had a "quota" or even a target number of tickets I was expected to write. During evaluations my traffic enforcement numbers were part of the metrics, but that was only to show that the officer was "doing something". As a supervisor all I ever looked for was productivity. If someone made a bunch of penal law arrests I wouldn't sweat them over lower than average traffic tickets. If they showed no tickets whatsoever they would get a talking to. If you are out driving around and you don't see at least a few major infractions worth writing you simply are not looking around.

 

[Carol]

Interesting questions. Aren't there places in the country where the firemen will allow a home to burn down if that person doesn't pay into the station's funding?

To answer, I'd expect you provide the same level of service. But that's just me. I generally lump a few things into a broad category of baseline services I think we should all be able to reasonably expect as citizens of the wealthiest country in the world. Healthcare, fire and police services, and a general education come to mind.

Edit: Link to the firestation thing. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39516346/
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again

Apparently, it has happened more than once.

There are also places in the country where fire departments and EMS are volunteer. Some of those places are within minutes of where I live. And there is no trash pickup, you sack your own trash and bring it to the transfer station, or you hire your choice of private contractors.

Without taking diverting this thread too far -- while I understand that may not be a good option in some places (including cities like mine, the 3rd largest in northern New England), I do think that there are many places where such efforts can work. Volunteer efforts and consumer-privatized efforts are not without cost. However, I think the expectations for some of these baseline services have also eroded some of the motivation for people and their communities to work together while demands for services increase the overall tax burden.

 

[Steve]

What about the "quota" meme?

I know PD's vary, but I never had a "quota" or even a target number of tickets I was expected to write. During evaluations my traffic enforcement numbers were part of the metrics, but that was only to show that the officer was "doing something". As a supervisor all I ever looked for was productivity. If someone made a bunch of penal law arrests I wouldn't sweat them over lower than average traffic tickets. If they showed no tickets whatsoever they would get a talking to. If you are out driving around and you don't see at least a few major infractions worth writing you simply are not looking around.

Depends on what you mean by "quota." A few years ago, I got pulled over for expired tabs and the guy gave me like a $90 ticket for it. I had the tabs, I just had forgotten to put the sticker on the car (it was on my counter at home). So, that night at class, a training partner who is Seattle PD was there and I asked him about it. He said, "Was the cop on a motorcycle?" I replied that he was, and his response was, "Well, that's why. Their job is to write tickets, and that's all they do."

Point is, the impression that I got after talking for a while longer is that these guys are tasked with writing tickets, and that their appraisals are based upon their productivity, which is centered around writing a certain number of tickets. That jives with what you said above. So, while there might not be a department wide quota to write, say, 500 tickets per month, there does seem to be something to the idea of quotas. Because, as you say, it's a metric used to determine productivity. And if X number of tickets is considered "average" productivity, and I'm a good cop trying to get high marks on my appraisal, I'm going to exceed that number every month.

 

[Tgace]

Depends on what you mean by "quota." A few years ago, I got pulled over for expired tabs and the guy gave me like a $90 ticket for it. I had the tabs, I just had forgotten to put the sticker on the car (it was on my counter at home). So, that night at class, a training partner who is Seattle PD was there and I asked him about it. He said, "Was the cop on a motorcycle?" I replied that he was, and his response was, "Well, that's why. Their job is to write tickets, and that's all they do."

Point is, the impression that I got after talking for a while longer is that these guys are tasked with writing tickets, and that their appraisals are based upon their productivity, which is centered around writing a certain number of tickets. That jives with what you said above. So, while there might not be a department wide quota to write, say, 500 tickets per month, there does seem to be something to the idea of quotas. Because, as you say, it's a metric used to determine productivity. And if X number of tickets is considered "average" productivity, and I'm a good cop trying to get high marks on my appraisal, I'm going to exceed that number every month.

I can only talk from my experience, here at my PD we have a traffic enforcement unit...they are dedicated to speed enforcement, accident investigatons, commercial vehicle enforcement, etc. Their performance standard will of course focus on traffic summons and parking tickets, but they don't have a "quota" as in a specific number to write within a month/year. Your local mileage may vary, but around my parts a hard "quota" is a rarity.

And not to mock my Trooper brethren, but SP's who's primary patrol areas are State highways are known to have more pressure placed on them to hang paper than other arms of LE.

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[oftheherd1]

While it may sound unfair to anyone who wants to excuse their ticket to "quotas," remember that if a ticket was written, it means a law was broken. :uhyeah:

 

[Tames D]

While it may sound unfair to anyone who wants to excuse their ticket to "quotas," remember that if a ticket was written, it means a law was broken. :uhyeah:

Maybe, maybe not...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

While it may sound unfair to anyone who wants to excuse their ticket to "quotas," remember that if a ticket was written, it means a law was broken. :uhyeah:

Unfortunately, many people don't see traffic violations as being a law. They don't see themselves as having done anything wrong. Rarely do I see someone get pulled over 'just because' i.e. they're doing something stupid like speeding, tail-gating, texting while driving etc.

As far a quota's are concerned, it is unofficially called 'self initiated police work' around here and the 'target' is 10 per month. It isn't enforced but 'encouraged'.

 

[crushing]

Unfortunately, many people don't see traffic violations as being a law. They don't see themselves as having done anything wrong. Rarely do I see someone get pulled over 'just because' i.e. they're doing something stupid like speeding, tail-gating, texting while driving etc.

As far a quota's are concerned, it is unofficially called 'self initiated police work' around here and the 'target' is 10 per month. It isn't enforced but 'encouraged'.

Another stupid thing people do to get pulled over is to run a 'stale' green light where the light turns yellow after they have already begun crossing the intersection. Drivers really need to better anticipate when the green light is turning yellow and stop on green. Instead of developing this anticipatory skill they would rather blame the officer for poor judgement. Unfortunately, developing this skill can and has resulted in people getting rear ended by those that lack the skill.

 

[Tgace]

Actually..by our traffic laws (and most others) you can legally enter an intersection under a yellow light. Once in you are not violating traffic law once the light turns red. Most VTL states its a violation to enter an intersection under a red light except in circumstances like making a right on red (or a left onto a one way street).

What many people don't realize is that only one vehicle can wait in the intersection under the yellow light (from each direction). Its the people who don't wait in the intersection, or follow the vehicle in the intersection through the turn who are "blowing the red light".

 

[Tgace]

Right of Way at intersections seems to be becoming lost knowledge too......

 

[Steve]

Unfortunately, many people don't see traffic violations as being a law. They don't see themselves as having done anything wrong. Rarely do I see someone get pulled over 'just because' i.e. they're doing something stupid like speeding, tail-gating, texting while driving etc.

As far a quota's are concerned, it is unofficially called 'self initiated police work' around here and the 'target' is 10 per month. It isn't enforced but 'encouraged'.

To be clear, I don't feel strongly about this, but I'm interested in it for the sake of discussion.

So, I have mixed feelings about the entire "they're doing something stupid" or "they're breaking a law" line of thought. it's easy to say. And yeah, we should abide by the laws. But, who here (raise of virtual hands) doesn't jaywalk from time to time? Who here can honestly say that they have never knowingly broken a law of any kind? I think we all do, in some ways. I've been pulled over 3 times in my life. I've received one ticket for speeding, and that was forgiven by the judge (30mph in a school zone, after the school had started and with no kids in sight... I think he had been given a quota. ) I only say that to establish that I'm not bitter nor am I an aggressive or reckless driver.

So, with laws like jaywalking or places where speeding is strictly enforced (ie, speed traps and such), it's not that the laws are enforced. It's that they are enforced in an arbitrary manner. In order to get a jaywalking ticket, you must jaywalk. Sure. That's the first step. But you must also jaywalk in front of a cop... who is bored or has been told to give out jaywalking tickets on that day or who just doesn't like the cut of your jib or, for some reason... just wants to eff with you a little. That's the problem.

And regarding quotas, whether the quota is strictly enforced or not, a quota it remains. Calling it a soft goal, a performance metric or a target is simply making it look less like a quota. Personally, I don't have a real problem with quotas, but it's odd how the agencies which have them try to deny that they exist.

This also touches on a point I made in another thread, where it's about the belief that they aren't REALLY breaking a law. It has been about 20 years since people began downloading music over the internet, and it's still difficult to convince many people that when you download a song from a torrent website or the usenet, that you are stealing it. It seems so innocuous to so many.

 

[Tgace]

It's either a rule or it's not.

People KNOW that they could get a ticket if they do it...they just don't like it when they do and try to rationalize why THEY should be exempt.

 

[Steve]

Actually..by our traffic laws (and most others) you can legally enter an intersection under a yellow light. Once in you are not violating traffic law once the light turns red. Most VTL states its a violation to enter an intersection under a red light except in circumstances like making a right on red (or a left onto a one way street).

What many people don't realize is that only one vehicle can wait in the intersection under the yellow light (from each direction). Its the people who don't wait in the intersection, or follow the vehicle in the intersection through the turn who are "blowing the red light".

Right of Way at intersections seems to be becoming lost knowledge too......

As someone who has recently taught two teenagers to drive (and still provides more coaching than they would probably like), I will second the above. There are rules that people just flat out don't understand that make driving more dangerous.

Another is what to do when two lanes merge into one. Jesus... what's so difficult about the concept of merging like a zipper???

 

[Tgace]

QUOTA= 2. a prescribed number or quantity, as of items to be manufactured, imported, or exported, immigrants admitted to a country, or students admitted to a college

If it's not given to you as a quantity (write 10 tickets a week) it's not a quota.

 

[Steve]

It's either a rule or it's not.

People KNOW that they could get a ticket if they do it...they just don't like it when they do and try to rationalize why THEY should be exempt.

Here's a question for the LEO on the forum. I've heard different things over the years, so I'd love to hear your take.

You're on a busy freeway, posted speed limit is 65mph, but the "pace of traffic" is 80mph. You're driving 65mph. I've heard from different people that the person driving the strict speed limit is actually "the problem." Because you're driving so much slower than then "pace of traffic," you're clogging up your lane and everyone behind you is taking risks trying to cut over to the faster lane to pass.

What would you guys do in this situation?

 

[Tgace]

Here's a question for the LEO on the forum. I've heard different things over the years, so I'd love to hear your take.

You're on a busy freeway, posted speed limit is 65mph, but the "pace of traffic" is 80mph. You're driving 65mph. I've heard from different people that the person driving the strict speed limit is actually "the problem." Because you're driving so much slower than then "pace of traffic," you're clogging up your lane and everyone behind you is taking risks trying to cut over to the faster lane to pass.

What would you guys do in this situation?

If the "pace" on that stretch of road is 15 mph over the limit than some targeted speed enforcement is due for that highway.

If someone is doing 15 mph over past me they are getting stopped. You can't write a ticket for obstructing traffic because someone is doing the speed limit.