Kung fu is bad for self defence

[Gerry Seymour]

but the part that matters most are the underpinning skills, those are repeated in all of the many forms. The only real question is do you practise those skills in,a few ways or many ways.
its all, block move punch kick at the end of the day, if you can do those to a good level you are good to go

True enough. But if enough of the techniques are "esoteric" (my term for techniques that teach a principle, rather than having direct application), and you spend too much time on those, you aren't spending enough time training the movements that you'll need.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was thinking more of the esoteric techniques that exist within Nihon Goshin Aikido. There are some that (IMO) are there to teach principles, and are not directly applicable. If someone put equal effort into all 50 classical techniques (we'll ignore the non-classical work, to keep the math easy), they won't be developing the right 10% for any situation. The esoteric techniques (about 25% of NGA's classical curriculum, and I think there are some in most TMA) should be a minor part of training, and mostly used for more advanced students to explore and improve on key concepts and principles. Most of the training time should be spent on the most effective techniques.

either way it's the same thing. take 5% consisting of the NGA's esoteric techniques and 5% of NGA's fighting techniques and you'll still fall short on what you may actually need in a fight.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you have one punch and one kick and a simple block or deflection, and you know how to use them with some level of aggression, you can be very effective.

Now take those three things plus the aggression and put it on top of an appropriate foundation with knowledge of good biomechanics and efficiency, and that same person can be devastating.

Fighting isn't that difficult. It doesn't take much in terms of curriculum, to be a good fighter, and that can largely translate into self defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

either way it's the same thing. take 5% consisting of the NGA's esoteric techniques and 5% of NGA's fighting techniques and you'll still fall short on what you may actually need in a fight.

Agreed. That would be a prime example of overtraining the esoteric techniques.

 

[Juany118]

Ok, slightly click-baiting title, but I'm fast coming to the realisation that a lot of traditional chinese martial arts are not suitable for self defence. This is not because the techniques themselves are bad, but because there are far too many of them to learn and practice effectively. There are so many different variations and combinations for every scenario that it just gets confusing. With so much to learn I find it hard to practice it all to the point where I could rely on it in a self defence scenario. Surely it's better to have a smaller number of techniques that work for 80% of situations, than a huge number of techniques that cover 100%.

Any thoughts on This? Or am I missing something here?

IMO it really has to do with the school. Most schools that teach Kung Fu now teach it for things like fitness, mental well being and demonstration. go to Kuo Shu or any number of Kung Fu tournaments and you will see that well over half of the competitions are very wu shu like. You will have solo empty hand and weapons demonstrations and choreographed "fights" between people from the same school. You will also have Tai Chi Chuan push hands competitions, as well as forms and WC forms competitions as well. The Lei Tai and real weapons fights while time consuming actually involve a minority of the competitors but they are there.

So it is a matter of finding the right school and teacher. As examples...

1. My school teaches Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali from a "combatives" point of view because that is my Sifu's choice. It is not unusual for someone to go to the cabinet and reach for the Jow or an ice pack (especially after weapons sparring).

2. There is another school near me that teaches the same lineage of Wing Chun (TWC) and Tai Chi. There the Sifu does not teach from a combatives point of view so I would not suggest that school for self-defense purposes.

3. There is a Tien Shan Pai school near me where the Sifu largely teaches the "performance" aspect of the art BUT he makes sure that at least once a week (sometimes more), with the adult class he has a "combat night" where he teaches the real fighting applications of the attributes the forms impart.

The above btw applies to many TMAs so, if you want to study a TMA and not Krav Maga, MMA etc, one of the first things you need to do is speak to the Head of the school, or a senior student, and ask what the main goals are. If, like my school, the first word is "we train fighters so you can go home to, and protect, those you love" you have found a school that should work well. If they say something like this though, "Our mission is to offer a center for mind and body development in pursuit of excellence through personal achievement and constant physical and mental improvement by maintaining the traditional martial arts training regimen," the school is likely not the place for self defense.

 

[drop bear]

The above btw applies to many TMAs so, if you want to study a TMA and not Krav Maga, MMA etc, one of the first things you need to do is speak to the Head of the school, or a senior student, and ask what the main goals are. If, like my school, the first word is "we train fighters so you can go home to, and protect, those you love" you have found a school that should work well. If they say something like this though, "Our mission is to offer a center for mind and body development in pursuit of excellence through personal achievement and constant physical and mental improvement by maintaining the traditional martial arts training regimen," the school is likely not the place for self defense

Nope.

You can't tell in that manner.

 

[drop bear]

It has to work.

It has to be applicable.

personally i suggest you find that out in the gym with your partners not helping you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are so many different variations and combinations for every scenario that it just gets confusing. With so much to learn I find it hard to practice it all to the point where I could rely on it in a self defence scenario.

When I was 11, I wanted to lean CMA so I could fight. My teacher (my brother in law) forced me to train "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years. That was the best MA investment that I had done.

Kung Fu means "time and effort". It's not how much that you know but how well that you can do in one thing. If you can throw 3 punches and knock down your opponent, you don't need anything else.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kung fu is bad for self defense.

Kung Fu means that you can do at least 1 thing better than everybody else on this planet. If anybody wants to learn that 1 thing, they have to come to you.

If you can use "single leg" to take down everybody on this planet, what's else do you need?

What's Kung Fu?

A guy bragged about his archery skill. Another guy who sold cooking oil put a coin (with a hole in the coin) on top of his oil container. He then pull the oil through that coin hole. The oil went through that tinny little coin hole without touching the coin. The archery guy was very impressed. The oil salesman said, "There is nothing to it. I just have done this over 10,000 times".

 

[Juany118]

Nope.

You can't tell in that manner.

It is a good indicator to decide whether or not you should even bother walking in the door though. You should of course get more details (such as experience of the head of the school and/or senior instructors etc).I have just found that the ones that speak like the later, focusing on physical and mental well being without any specific mention of self-defense application, competitive fighting etc, aren't going to teach it, at least not well.

 

[DanT]

why not three of each?

You could if you wanted to. You don't wanna be a one trick pony either.

 

[DanT]

I think you need your go to techniques. Obviously you need to be good at everything if you want to teach. But you still should have a couple of go to techniques. Let's say it's back fist and a sidekick. If you have a backlist that is so quick you can just knock people out from 5 feet away with it, and a side kick that can kill people, you don't need much more. My Sifu's Kung Fu brother trained his fingers so much, that he could literally stab people with them. When I met him I didn't believe it, so he picked up a chicken (this was on a farm), and he stabbed it with his fingers (in its side). He literally went 4-5 inches deep with his fingers inside a ******* chicken! Imagine if he fought somebody, he basically walks around with knives for hands, and that's not to say the rest of his Kung fu is no good, it's in fact excellent.

 

[jobo]

You could if you wanted to. You don't wanna be a one trick pony either.

that works fine as long as they haven't seen your one trick before

 

[jobo]

I think you need your go to techniques. Obviously you need to be good at everything if you want to teach. But you still should have a couple of go to techniques. Let's say it's back fist and a sidekick. If you have a backlist that is so quick you can just knock people out from 5 feet away with it, and a side kick that can kill people, you don't need much more. My Sifu's Kung Fu brother trained his fingers so much, that he could literally stab people with them. When I met him I didn't believe it, so he picked up a chicken (this was on a farm), and he stabbed it with his fingers (in its side). He literally went 4-5 inches deep with his fingers inside a ******* chicken! Imagine if he fought somebody, he basically walks around with knives for hands, and that's not to say the rest of his Kung fu is no good, it's in fact excellent.

that's horrific, can't he burst coke tins like all the other show offs, poor chicken

 

[DanT]

that's horrific, can't he burst coke tins like all the other show offs, poor chicken

I was very horrified.

 

[Juany118]

I think you need your go to techniques. Obviously you need to be good at everything if you want to teach. But you still should have a couple of go to techniques. Let's say it's back fist and a sidekick. If you have a backlist that is so quick you can just knock people out from 5 feet away with it, and a side kick that can kill people, you don't need much more. My Sifu's Kung Fu brother trained his fingers so much, that he could literally stab people with them. When I met him I didn't believe it, so he picked up a chicken (this was on a farm), and he stabbed it with his fingers (in its side). He literally went 4-5 inches deep with his fingers inside a ******* chicken! Imagine if he fought somebody, he basically walks around with knives for hands, and that's not to say the rest of his Kung fu is no good, it's in fact excellent.

I think the "goto" is very important. As an example, I am rather lean, wiry even, with a body type that lends itself to strong legs and dang skinny arms. Don't ask me why but I can build a ridiculous amount of muscle in my legs get a good core but my arms, not so much.

So I tend to use strikes with my hands simply as "set ups". If I am at work and need to control someone its just about wedging, set up, so I can go for control/takedown. However in training I also train for "off duty" defense. I train for two things there, lethal and less lethal. For less lethal I do two things.
1. I train A LOT in terms of getting power in my kicks.
2. when I spar I will use a lot of oblique kicks to just above the knee to maintain distance for a time so that in a real defense situation I have the accuracy to go for the knee and just need to ramp up the strength.

For lethal that is a long story because I would have to go into why a cop doesn't carry a firearm off duty as a personal choice and that is a LONG story that sometimes causes derails so I will leave that for another day.

That all said I have actually just started iron palm/hand training because I want to use bil jee in my setups and not risk breaking my fingers on someones facial bones. We'll see how that goes

 

[drop bear]

It is a good indicator to decide whether or not you should even bother walking in the door though. You should of course get more details (such as experience of the head of the school and/or senior instructors etc).I have just found that the ones that speak like the later, focusing on physical and mental well being without any specific mention of self-defense application, competitive fighting etc, aren't going to teach it, at least not well.

Noooooo.

Because people can say what they like.

I mean if i went by your method the best martial art is the one that trains specifically to flatten 4 guys.

Because who wouldn't want to do that.

 

[Juany118]

Noooooo.

Because people can say what they like.

I mean if i went by your method the best martial art is the one that trains specifically to flatten 4 guys.

Because who wouldn't want to do that.

Look at it this way. You are looking to learn how to actually fight but have multiple schools in your area. Most schools will give you a free class or two. How do you narrow the field? I think it reasonable to focus on the schools that say they teach you how to fight vs those who actively avoid using the words self defense or fighting.

Btw I am not talking about their advertising. I am talking about actual conversation. The above helps you narrow the field. Then you go and if you have even the slightest clue as to how to fight already, imo, it's easy to tell who was bsing you BUT you at least narrowed the field down to something realistic. Where I live I can't throw a rock without hitting a martial arts school.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

one that trains specifically to flatten 4 guys.

The Kung Fu (CMA) is good to be used to against multiple opponents.

 

[drop bear]

Look at it this way. You are looking to learn how to actually fight but have multiple schools in your area. Most schools will give you a free class or two. How do you narrow the field? I think it reasonable to focus on the schools that say they teach you how to fight vs those who actively avoid using the words self defense or fighting.

Btw I am not talking about their advertising. I am talking about actual conversation. The above helps you narrow the field. Then you go and if you have even the slightest clue as to how to fight already, imo, it's easy to tell who was bsing you BUT you at least narrowed the field down to something realistic. Where I live I can't throw a rock without hitting a martial arts school.

You would get a more honest result if you just threw the rock.