Kung fu in MMA Wins

[JowGaWolf]

Having active fighters & competitors in your school, generates a lot of interests & excitement among the other students. This will bring in more students & further promote your style & yourself/gym. But you have to be open to the aspects of MMA fighting, which is what's dominating the MA world.

If my last school tried to run our school like this, then we would have lost many customers who want to learn Kung Fu but not for fighting. To give you When I started doing Kung fu sparring classes on a regular bases. The class went empty for a year before any of the current student's joined. Out of 25 students only 5 wanted to take that path and only 2 had the skill set and toughness to compete in MMA. 1 of the 2 wouldn't have done it because he's a surgeon. A lot of the students were children. The adults students had Jobs that were better than fighting MMA so there's no incentive to get busted up for less money. They were satisfied with being able to protect themselves in the street and to have the ability to say that they know how to use Kung Fu, which is a big deal considering most student's don't know how to use the martial arts that they train as for self defense. They can do the basics but that's usually where it sticks.

Fighting at a high competition level comes with a lot of things that most people just don't want to deal with.

But actually, it's BJJ that's dominating in terms of bringing in students. I'm in a State that's very Liberal, so during this Delta variant Covid19 spread, we have to wear masks again and everyone's fearful,

Everyone is fearful because people keep dying for it. My friend just contacted me 2 days ago and told me his mom died from Covid. No one wants to die from something that could have been avoided. No parent wants to there kid to die from either. Parent's should protect their kids and when they can't or don't many will feel as if they are to blame, even if they aren't.

As for the schools making money. I find that to be more of a business knowledge issue as to why TMA schools do not do well with attracting students. When I was teaching we were getting a lot of students and were actually running out of training space. The thing that attracted the student's was my ability to use Jow Ga. In short, someone says I can teach you how to use Kung Fu. The customer will think "Show me that you can use kung fu." Most people who want to learn Kung Fu for self-defense wants to learn from someone who can actually use it. Normally schools will showcase trophies, but for me, I would show case my sparring and my training methods.

Students weren't looking for Professional fighter grade training. Professional fighter grade training is unrealistic for many people since the amount of training would interfere with other parts of their life. I even had other Jow Ga students from other schools seek my help. But politically that's not a good thing since I'm not a Sifu.

Kung Fu and Martial Arts don't have the same limitations as systems that are heavily focused on grappling. I can provide quality training to students with less contact than what BJJ, Judo, or wrestler's need.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What’s the point of learning all of that if the end result looks like the Lei tai video?

You watch Kung Fu people use kung fu techniques effectively yet you seem to be more concern about the looks. This I don't understand. S

As for "Learning all of that" that is up to the person who is training. That person decides which techniques they wish to learn and which ones they will not learn. Not only will the person decide this, they will decide if they want to use Kung fu for fighting or for health. Not everyone who takes kung fu wants to be able to fight with it. Some of the same people who take Kung Fu would just as easily shoot you for self-defense and take Kung Fu for health.

I can't speak for others but my own in enjoyment with Kung Fu is learning how to use the techniques. I start with the beginner form and I learn how to use every technique in that beginner form. When you see me spar my strikes to not look like the ones you see in Lei Tai, but that's because of the goals of myself. If I only want to use the front kick from Kung Fu then that would be my choice to do so.

The assumption that you make about "Learning all of this" is that people train Kung Fu for different reasons and a lot of those reasons aren't tied to fighting. Out of the beginning form in Jow Ga, I can do all but maybe 3 or 4 . If you asked me to show an example of a technique from that form, then I can probably show you and example from my sparring videos or get in a ring sparring or fighting and show an example of it. I take personal pride in my ability to do that.

Like many of the UFC fans in this forum. Not many of us are going to be fighting in the UFC or going to try to make a living out of MMA..

 

[Hanzou]

You watch Kung Fu people use kung fu techniques effectively yet you seem to be more concern about the looks. This I don't understand. S

I’m concerned that you’re learning hundreds of techniques and only a couple are truly applicable.

As for "Learning all of that" that is up to the person who is training. That person decides which techniques they wish to learn and which ones they will not learn. Not only will the person decide this, they will decide if they want to use Kung fu for fighting or for health. Not everyone who takes kung fu wants to be able to fight with it. Some of the same people who take Kung Fu would just as easily shoot you for self-defense and take Kung Fu for health.

So you admit that all that form work is mostly fluff? Interesting.

Also, I’d be willing to bet that the VAST majority (like 90%) of people in Kung Fu currently are doing so either partly or fully for self defense purposes.

The assumption that you make about "Learning all of this" is that people train Kung Fu for different reasons and a lot of those reasons aren't tied to fighting. Out of the beginning form in Jow Ga, I can do all but maybe 3 or 4 . If you asked me to show an example of a technique from that form, then I can probably show you and example from my sparring videos or get in a ring sparring or fighting and show an example of it. I take personal pride in my ability to do that.

Like many of the UFC fans in this forum. Not many of us are going to be fighting in the UFC or going to try to make a living out of MMA..

No one is talking about the UFC or professional fighting. I’m talking about a kid fighting back against a bully, a woman fighting back against a rapist, or a teacher fighting off a crazed student.

The problem with you traditionalist types is that you don’t seem to understand that learning to fight applies to the street just like it applies to the ring/cage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And keeping it real.

I’m concerned that you’re learning hundreds of techniques and only a couple are truly applicable.

I"m not. So far the ones I've learned have been functional. If something that doesn't work after understanding the technique and after trying to use it then don't use it. It can still be taught and useful to someone in the next generation. Perfect example, out of 25 people in my school sweeps and foot hooks didn't work for them., simply because they didn't make an effort to understand and train the techniques. When sparring came up they were too concerned with "winning" so they stuck to some really basic stuff. But for me. Sweeps and foot hooks are awesome. They fit well with my fighting style.

Had my teacher thrown sweeps away because they didn't work well for them then I wouldn't have that tool in my kick. Now my son has taken after me with the sweep. May be his son or daughter won't. But you still teach the skill set.

So you admit that all that form work is mostly fluff? Interesting.

I said no such thing. When I tell you I can use over 90% of the techniques in my form it's because I don't know or fully understand how to apply the other techniques. That's not fluff. That's a gap in my ability in reference to that technique.

Also, I’d be willing to bet that the VAST majority (like 90%) of people in Kung Fu currently are doing so either partly or fully for self defense purposes.

You would be wrong on this. Most of them do it for Self Cultivation. You only need to read the websites and listen to people. I believe I posted in this forum a video of Dennis Brown who was asked about teaching fighting. He said that today he's in the business of self cultivation or something like that. I've taught Kung Fu classes and helped run the school. Most people don't join for self-defense. For some reason self defense is like a Side Effect to them.

The problem with you traditionalist types is that you don’t seem to understand that learning to fight applies to the street just like it applies to the ring/cage.

It doesn't because if I had a chair, a knife, or a gun when it's time for me defend myself then I'm going to make use of it. If I can talk my way out of a hostile situation then I'm going to use that ability. When you in the ring/cage. You have to fight. When you are on the streets you have many more options before the fight comes and even then you can have other options that aren't available in the ring/cage.

 

[Flying Crane]

And keeping it real.

I"m not. So far the ones I've learned have been functional. If something that doesn't work after understanding the technique and after trying to use it then don't use it. It can still be taught and useful to someone in the next generation. Perfect example, out of 25 people in my school sweeps and foot hooks didn't work for them., simply because they didn't make an effort to understand and train the techniques. When sparring came up they were too concerned with "winning" so they stuck to some really basic stuff. But for me. Sweeps and foot hooks are awesome. They fit well with my fighting style.

Had my teacher thrown sweeps away because they didn't work well for them then I wouldn't have that tool in my kick. Now my son has taken after me with the sweep. May be his son or daughter won't. But you still teach the skill set.

I said no such thing. When I tell you I can use over 90% of the techniques in my form it's because I don't know or fully understand how to apply the other techniques. That's not fluff. That's a gap in my ability in reference to that technique.


You would be wrong on this. Most of them do it for Self Cultivation. You only need to read the websites and listen to people. I believe I posted in this forum a video of Dennis Brown who was asked about teaching fighting. He said that today he's in the business of self cultivation or something like that. I've taught Kung Fu classes and helped run the school. Most people don't join for self-defense. For some reason self defense is like a Side Effect to them.


It doesn't because if I had a chair, a knife, or a gun when it's time for me defend myself then I'm going to make use of it. If I can talk my way out of a hostile situation then I'm going to use that ability. When you in the ring/cage. You have to fight. When you are on the streets you have many more options before the fight comes and even then you can have other options that aren't available in the ring/cage.

People who want to call it fluff usually don’t understand it because it falls outside of their experience. Sadly, it seems most of them are not open to actually understanding it. Just look at the years of discussions here on Martialtalk where folks have tried to explain these things over and over, to the same people. And here we are doing it yet again. Calling it fluff and resorting to denigrating what others do is the easy way out, and frankly is dishonest. Owning up to simply not understanding what it is all about is more honest.

 

[Hanzou]

And keeping it real.

I"m not. So far the ones I've learned have been functional. If something that doesn't work after understanding the technique and after trying to use it then don't use it. It can still be taught and useful to someone in the next generation. Perfect example, out of 25 people in my school sweeps and foot hooks didn't work for them., simply because they didn't make an effort to understand and train the techniques. When sparring came up they were too concerned with "winning" so they stuck to some really basic stuff. But for me. Sweeps and foot hooks are awesome. They fit well with my fighting style.

Had my teacher thrown sweeps away because they didn't work well for them then I wouldn't have that tool in my kick. Now my son has taken after me with the sweep. May be his son or daughter won't. But you still teach the skill set.

Not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the more esoteric and whimsical aspects of your forms.

I said no such thing. When I tell you I can use over 90% of the techniques in my form it's because I don't know or fully understand how to apply the other techniques. That's not fluff. That's a gap in my ability in reference to that technique.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jow Ga have over 20 unarmed forms, 18 weapon forms, and 10 2 man sets? You're telling me you use 90% of the techniques from all of those forms?

Further, even 10% useless techniques would still be you wasting time on a useless technique. Thus, fluff. That said, based on what I've seen of Jow Ga forms, and some of the sparring from some Jow Ga schools (not yours), I would argue that that percentage of form application is far lower.

You would be wrong on this. Most of them do it for Self Cultivation. You only need to read the websites and listen to people. I believe I posted in this forum a video of Dennis Brown who was asked about teaching fighting. He said that today he's in the business of self cultivation or something like that. I've taught Kung Fu classes and helped run the school. Most people don't join for self-defense. For some reason self defense is like a Side Effect to them.

Interesting, because this is how Dennis Brown advertises his school.....

Become a Powerful, Hard-Bodied Warrior at Silverspring Kung Fu!

If you want to learn a COMPLETE martial arts system that maximizes the physical and mental skills of self-defense, you'll find it at Dennis Brown Shaolin Wu Shu Center!

Silver Spring Martial Arts - Dennis Brown Shaolin Wu Shu Center - Silver Spring, Maryland

Our Martial Arts, Kids Karate and Kung Fu programs are excellent choices for self defense, discipline and fitness. Learn more about our martial arts classes in Silver Spring now!

silverspringkarate.com

Looks like he's not in the business you think he is.

It doesn't because if I had a chair, a knife, or a gun when it's time for me defend myself then I'm going to make use of it. If I can talk my way out of a hostile situation then I'm going to use that ability.

Really? So when its time to defend yourself and you don't have a knife, a gun, or a chair, and you can no longer talk your way out of the situation, are you just going to stand there and get the crap beaten out of you? Considering that more often than not you're not carrying a chair, knife, or a gun, why wouldn't you use the Kung Fu that you have spent years practicing?

I am always perplexed as to why me suggesting that you utilize your Kung Fu for fighting bothers your so much.

 

[Hanzou]

People who want to call it fluff usually don’t understand it because it falls outside of their experience. Sadly, it seems most of them are not open to actually understanding it. Just look at the years of discussions here on Martialtalk where folks have tried to explain these things over and over, to the same people. And here we are doing it yet again. Calling it fluff and resorting to denigrating what others do is the easy way out, and frankly is dishonest. Owning up to simply not understanding what it is all about is more honest.

The only dishonesty here are people who wave away valid criticism by saying that someone doesn't understand that which they are criticizing.

Despite all the silliness that some schools like to kick up, martial arts practice always revolves around a singular goal; To make someone a better fighter. The fluff is what is put in place to obscure or delay that goal. Some schools put it in so that they can get more money for belt testing. Other schools stuff things up with fluff to make it more appealing to less aggressive people. Some schools have a long tradition of fluff in order to ensure that the student they get are actually dedicated.

It's still all fluff.

And like I said, even BJJ has fluff in it. That fluff is why I chose it over MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People who want to call it fluff usually don’t understand it because it falls outside of their experience. Sadly, it seems most of them are not open to actually understanding it. Just look at the years of discussions here on Martialtalk where folks have tried to explain these things over and over, to the same people. And here we are doing it yet again. Calling it fluff and resorting to denigrating what others do is the easy way out, and frankly is dishonest. Owning up to simply not understanding what it is all about is more honest.

Yep. I and here goes another one.

Not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the more esoteric and whimsical aspects of your forms.

I don't know what you are talking about. You are going to have to show me what you think is "esoteric and whimsical" in a Jow Ga" form. I can't speak for other systems I haven't trained.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jow Ga have over 20 unarmed forms, 18 weapon forms, and 10 2 man sets? You're telling me you use 90% of the techniques from all of those forms?

I don't know how many forms that Jow Ga has. It depends on what school you attend and how much the teacher knows. Each school is different and are shaped around the experience and preference of the teacher or instructor. If I open up a school today, there would only be 5 unarmed forms and 1 weapons form. In Kung Fu, there are a group of people who based there expertise by the total number of forms that they know. The assumption is, if you know a lot of forms then you must be knowledgeable. I'm not of that camp.

For my real kung fu knowledge can only be obtained by applying the techniques that are found in the form. This requires the person to have a deeper understanding of the techniques. This also helps to define what parts of the form are for fighting and what parts are for conditioning. I do not believe it's possible to understand Kung Fu without trying to use Kung Fu

So to answer your question. Out of the 5 unarmed forms that I train. I can use the more than 90% of the beginners form Sei-Ping Kyun.

This is Sei-Ping Kyun. I know how to apply more than 90% of this form. This is the one I train the most.

My personal thought about learning a lot of forms is that I wouldn't do it unless I just want to be a library of forms. Even with the weapons form I only want to know, staff, dagger, Dao, straight sword, and Gwan Dao.

The 2 man sets are fine too. It has it's own purpose and is related to applications use and conditioning. I used to know 1 of them but I don't know them anymore. Mainly because it takes 2 people for it to be of any use. If a student is like me who trains by himself most of the time, then the 2 man set isn't going to be of use. So it dropped from the things I decided to remember.

Really? So when its time to defend yourself and you don't have a knife, a gun, or a chair, and you can no longer talk your way out of the situation, are you just going to stand there and get the crap beaten out of you?

You are missing the point of my conflict. If there's a weapon around for me to use then I will take advantage of it so that my attacker cannot do the same. I there's no weapon around then I use my unarmed fighting skills.

Considering that more often than not you're not carrying a chair, knife, or a gun, why wouldn't you use the Kung Fu that you have spent years practicing?

Because if there's something I can use as a weapon, then it is my advantage to do so, instead of allowing my attacker to use that same object on me.

As for weapons I carry; I won't get into that. But the law allows adults to carry knives with or without a permit depending on the length of the blade. In the southern states it's not uncommon to see someone with a pocket knife.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

People who want to call it fluff usually don’t understand it because it falls outside of their experience.

All the fancy moves in CMA are just "switch hands". I don't believe the "switch hands" concept exist in non-CMA.

I always tell my guys that if your can understand this concept, you will understand all CMA fancy moves.

In another post, someone said that CMA is stupid. If he understands what "switch hands" is, he won't make such comment.

There are only 3 kind of hand skill exist in all MA systems.

1. Dodge and punchy back.
2. Block and punch back.
3. Block with the 1st arm, the 2nd arm take over the blocking, the 1st arm punch back (switch hands).

 

[Martial D]

"Rooting" is just another way of saying stance and balance training.

You don't need to look to hard to see where that ties into real world application.

Yes, when talking about 'fighting' most traditional systems are quite ineffective when taken as a package but the stance and balance training is good for strength conditioning and .well staying upright. If anything it's one of the strengths of TMA. They have much to teach about body mechanics as a whole.

 

[Hanzou]

Yep. I and here goes another one.


I don't know what you are talking about. You are going to have to show me what you think is "esoteric and whimsical" in a Jow Ga" form. I can't speak for other systems I haven't trained.

This sequence for example.

I don't know how many forms that Jow Ga has.

About 50 total.

It depends on what school you attend and how much the teacher knows. Each school is different and are shaped around the experience and preference of the teacher or instructor. If I open up a school today, there would only be 5 unarmed forms and 1 weapons form. In Kung Fu, there are a group of people who based there expertise by the total number of forms that they know. The assumption is, if you know a lot of forms then you must be knowledgeable. I'm not of that camp.

Did your sifu only know 6 forms, or was 6 the only forms you had time to learn before he kicked you out for sparring?

For my real kung fu knowledge can only be obtained by applying the techniques that are found in the form. This requires the person to have a deeper understanding of the techniques. This also helps to define what parts of the form are for fighting and what parts are for conditioning. I do not believe it's possible to understand Kung Fu without trying to use Kung Fu

So to answer your question. Out of the 5 unarmed forms that I train. I can use the more than 90% of the beginners form Sei-Ping Kyun.

This is Sei-Ping Kyun. I know how to apply more than 90% of this form. This is the one I train the most.

And what is that application? Conditioning or fighting?

You are missing the point of my conflict. If there's a weapon around for me to use then I will take advantage of it so that my attacker cannot do the same. I there's no weapon around then I use my unarmed fighting skills.

Why is that a conflict? That sounds more like common sense. My issue with your earlier post is that you made it seem like you reserved weapons for self defense and your unarmed training was for something else entirely. Hence your mentioning of Dennis Brown, who you were using as a model of a kung fu exponent who wasn't training people to fight, when in reality that's exactly what he believes he's doing.

 

[Hanzou]

In another post, someone said that CMA is stupid. If he understands what "switch hands" is, he won't make such comment.

Honestly, silly concepts like "switch hands" is probably why he feels that way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Honestly, silly concepts like "switch hands" is probably why he feels that way.

The arm drag is switch hands.

At 1.48,

- Your use right hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist.
- You use left hand to grab his left elbow.
- You free your right hand. You then move behind him, and use your right arm to wrap around his waist.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This sequence for example.

So the first part is going to be 50-50. where the user steps back. Not so much as fluff as it is to pay respect. I'll explain
The Bow in Jow Ga is a mixture of respect and technique. It is done as an acknowledgement of the founder of the form (not the system). Based on the Bow someone would be able to have an idea of what lineage they follow. or the lineage of the form. This is of cultural significant in Chinese Culture. Like the Bow in Japanese or Muay Thai. There are hand gestures as well but I won't get into that. I just stick to the important stuff. The Cultural Stuff ends once he pulls both arms back. That the other 50% of the Bow.

Technique #1 is an escape and counter - Pull both arms back and feed that motion into a back fist. This type of back fist is a heavy back fist and not the one that snaps. In application you would do this to deal with single arm control. Escape single arm control and immediately counter. In forms practice You are training the motion for both left and right arms together. Where some techniques are stronger with the right or left arm. This one trains equal strength and ability by training both arms instead of one arm at a time.

Technique #2: Cat Stance - This strengthens the muscles in the leg and strengthens balance. It is also the stance that one is in when doing a front kick or evading a trip.

Technique #1a Similar concept as #1 . Ignore the back fits and focused on the elbows. This is the same motion used for Elbow strikes. This doesn't become clear until the Small tiger forms. Students will train this bow and have no problem with doing elbow strikes by the time they get to the second form. Even if they never thrown an elbow before, they will have no problem by the second form. The bow trains this motion. But to answer your question about fluff. Follow #! and think of this as a by product. As beginners we train the bow over and over before we get into the main form.

Technique #3 - End of bow: - The Bow end when the he steps back into chambered fist. The same motion to chamber fist like you see in Kung fu is the same motion used for elbow strikes. In training double chamber my fist I'm training both arms at the same time to do an elbow strike. If I chamber my elbows low then the elbow strike will be low. If I chamber my fist high then my elbow strike will be high.

Technique #4 - Dropping into horse - This is simply a level change. The goal is to drop quickly. When someone comes at you for a take down you have to quickly drop the height of your stance to prevent them from getting under you.

Technique #5 -Double spear hands /arms- This technique is often not shown correctly in forms. Some forms will do a 1 then 2 when in application it should be a 1 and 2 at the same time. So the double spear hands and drop are meant to be done together. Some people do it at the same time other don't. I'm focused on application so I train that motion as I would use it in application. Think of it this way. You are in a fighting stance and your opponent drops to to grab under your arms leaving your hands above.. There is no way you can get the under hook unless you drive both arms downward to the center of the body. and by lowering your stance at the the same time. This technique makes it possible to do other techniques so this motion is some times trained as a single technique. I guess you can think of it like an entry technique.

Technique #6- Double spear hands /arms. to palms in front of your face. (beauty looks in mirror). This technique is a grappling technique.. It's an escape for single arm control attempts.

Last technique at the end of the video was taught to me as a breathing exercise. Qi Gong . So that's what I'm going to go with on that one. I don't train that as an application. You will usually see this movement done on forms that are very demanding on the body. The forms that are very exhausting has Qi Gong movement in it.. Qi Gong can be considered as breathing training or energy movement training.
When I say energy movement I don't mean Chi Balls. I mean the physical movement of energy in the body. Sort of like how all systems state that punch energy starts from the ground and exits the fist. They aren't talking about Chi balls. So when you see kung fu do this then that's what they are supposed to be working on.. In terms of application.

So that small bit trains 7 techniques.. I don't think I left anything out.

 

[Hanzou]

The arm drag is switch hands.

At 1.48,

- Your use right hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist.
- You use left hand to grab his left elbow.
- You then free your right hand so your right hand can wrap around your opponent's waist.

But the arm drag is not a fancy move, and it exists outside of CMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The arm drag is switch hands.

He also does what looks like a Single Spear hand, that does the same thing I described in the form. Technique #5.

When the Opponent seeks to control your arm pull the arm back as shown in the clip that Quickly pull the arm back as shown here. This keeps the elbow from being grabbed as shown in the video. Turn the pull into a backfist will free the one hand grip.. Grabbing elbow prevents the person from pulling their arm back so that gives a good idea of when one needs to pull their arm back and how quickly that needs to be. Pulling the arm straight back will just get you in more trouble . Pulling the arm back with the elbows sticking out will free you or at least give you a chance to escape that initial attempt to control the arm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But the arm drag is not a fancy move, and it exists outside of CMA.

It exists in CMA since day 1. It may look fancy when you do solo.

 

[Hanzou]

So the first part is going to be 50-50. where the user steps back. Not so much as fluff as it is to pay respect. I'll explain
The Bow in Jow Ga is a mixture of respect and technique. It is done as an acknowledgement of the founder of the form (not the system). Based on the Bow someone would be able to have an idea of what lineage they follow. or the lineage of the form. This is of cultural significant in Chinese Culture. Like the Bow in Japanese or Muay Thai. There are hand gestures as well but I won't get into that. I just stick to the important stuff. The Cultural Stuff ends once he pulls both arms back. That the other 50% of the Bow.

Technique #1 is an escape and counter - Pull both arms back and feed that motion into a back fist. This type of back fist is a heavy back fist and not the one that snaps. In application you would do this to deal with single arm control. Escape single arm control and immediately counter. In forms practice You are training the motion for both left and right arms together. Where some techniques are stronger with the right or left arm. This one trains equal strength and ability by training both arms instead of one arm at a time.

Technique #2: Cat Stance - This strengthens the muscles in the leg and strengthens balance. It is also the stance that one is in when doing a front kick or evading a trip.

Technique #1a Similar concept as #1 . Ignore the back fits and focused on the elbows. This is the same motion used for Elbow strikes. This doesn't become clear until the Small tiger forms. Students will train this bow and have no problem with doing elbow strikes by the time they get to the second form. Even if they never thrown an elbow before, they will have no problem by the second form. The bow trains this motion. But to answer your question about fluff. Follow #! and think of this as a by product. As beginners we train the bow over and over before we get into the main form.

Technique #3 - End of bow: - The Bow end when the he steps back into chambered fist. The same motion to chamber fist like you see in Kung fu is the same motion used for elbow strikes. In training double chamber my fist I'm training both arms at the same time to do an elbow strike. If I chamber my elbows low then the elbow strike will be low. If I chamber my fist high then my elbow strike will be high.

Technique #4 - Dropping into horse - This is simply a level change. The goal is to drop quickly. When someone comes at you for a take down you have to quickly drop the height of your stance to prevent them from getting under you.

Technique #5 -Double spear hands /arms- This technique is often not shown correctly in forms. Some forms will do a 1 then 2 when in application it should be a 1 and 2 at the same time. So the double spear hands and drop are meant to be done together. Some people do it at the same time other don't. I'm focused on application so I train that motion as I would use it in application. Think of it this way. You are in a fighting stance and your opponent drops to to grab under your arms leaving your hands above.. There is no way you can get the under hook unless you drive both arms downward to the center of the body. and by lowering your stance at the the same time. This technique makes it possible to do other techniques so this motion is some times trained as a single technique. I guess you can think of it like an entry technique.

Technique #6- Double spear hands /arms. to palms in front of your face. (beauty looks in mirror). This technique is a grappling technique.. It's an escape for single arm control attempts.

Last technique at the end of the video was taught to me as a breathing exercise. Qi Gong . So that's what I'm going to go with on that one. I don't train that as an application. You will usually see this movement done on forms that are very demanding on the body. The forms that are very exhausting has Qi Gong movement in it.. Qi Gong can be considered as breathing training or energy movement training.
When I say energy movement I don't mean Chi Balls. I mean the physical movement of energy in the body. Sort of like how all systems state that punch energy starts from the ground and exits the fist. They aren't talking about Chi balls. So when you see kung fu do this then that's what they are supposed to be working on.. In terms of application.

So that small bit trains 7 techniques.. I don't think I left anything out.

While I appreciate the play by play describing the goals of the form, my point is that the movements are unnecessary, estoteric and whimsical. Perhaps because some of the movements are archaic and we have more efficient methods to achieve those goals?

 

[Hanzou]

It exists in CMA since day 1. It may look fancy when you do solo.

You literally said that Switch Hands does not exist in Non-CMA, now you're saying it exists in one of the staples of western wrestling?

And no, it doesn't look fancy. I mean, when done properly, its a cool way to open up someone, but it's nothing like the crazy stuff we see in Kung Fu.