Kung fu in MMA Wins

[JowGaWolf]

While I appreciate the play by play describing the goals of the form, my point is that the movements are unnecessary, estoteric and whimsical. Perhaps because some of the movements are archaic and we have more efficient methods to achieve those goals?

The movements aren't archaic. (white) does the same spear hand concept that is trained in the form. It's literally the same concept of "spearing your hand towards your center for the purpose of getting under your opponent. The concept of stance level drop is there as well.is there as well.

You won't see a lot of kung fu students that know these things simply because they don't try to actually use the techniques or because their teacher lacks the understanding to actually apply it. We all have seen those Kung Fu applications that look awkward even in a walk through, that makes you think. "Yeah you really haven't used this technique before."

 

[JowGaWolf]

You literally said that Switch Hands does not exist in Non-CMA, now you're saying it exists in one of the staples of western wrestling?

And no, it doesn't look fancy. I mean, when done properly, its a cool way to open up someone, but it's nothing like the crazy stuff we see in Kung Fu.

How is it "crazy kung fu" when his video shows the same technique of controlling the arm and seizing the elbow? The only thing that was different was the follow up after seizing the elbow. 2 different applications from the same movement.

If your punch is Jab, hook then the variation can be Jab, Cross. Regardless of what follows then Jab is still the same technique.

if you are saying that "crazy kung fu" is that stuff that people do for entertainment like Jackie Chan then yes., But if you are looking for practical application then don't look for stuff that entertainment kung fu. To do so means that you are looking for applications in an activity where applications is not the purpose. It makes as much sense as looking for fish that swim in desert sand.

 

[Hanzou]

How is it "crazy kung fu" when his video shows the same technique of controlling the arm and seizing the elbow? The only thing that was different was the follow up after seizing the elbow. 2 different applications from the same movement.

If your punch is Jab, hook then the variation can be Jab, Cross. Regardless of what follows then Jab is still the same technique.

if you are saying that "crazy kung fu" is that stuff that people do for entertainment like Jackie Chan then yes., But if you are looking for practical application then don't look for stuff that entertainment kung fu. To do so means that you are looking for applications in an activity where applications is not the purpose. It makes as much sense as looking for fish that swim in desert sand.

Uh, I specifically said that the arm drag is NOT "crazy kung fu". I also said that the arm drag is definitely not exclusive to CMA, so it wouldn't fall under his own definition of "switch hands".

 

[Hanzou]

The movements aren't archaic. (white) does the same spear hand concept that is trained in the form. It's literally the same concept of "spearing your hand towards your center for the purpose of getting under your opponent. The concept of stance level drop is there as well.is there as well.

View attachment 27264

You won't see a lot of kung fu students that know these things simply because they don't try to actually use the techniques or because their teacher lacks the understanding to actually apply it. We all have seen those Kung Fu applications that look awkward even in a walk through, that makes you think. "Yeah you really haven't used this technique before."

You should watch the video with the sound on. The initial arm thrust wasn't the actual movement, he was just showing the general principle. The actual movement is this;

Where he swings the opponent's arm out of the way, drops down, and wraps his lower body for a takedown. It isn't a "spear hand". You can actually see what he's doing when the video is in motion, and when he's talking he's explaining what he's doing.

Your post is a common problem with Kata/form bunkai..... Trying to find movements that aren't really there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Where he swings the opponent's arm out of the way, drops down, and wraps his lower body for a takedown. It isn't a "spear hand". You can actually see what he's doing when the video is in motion, and when he's talking he's explaining what he

ha ha ha. Dude if you are grappling against a resisting partner that arm isn't going to swing way out like that. You are going to have a tight spot to get that arm through which means you have to bring your arm closer to your body in order to quick get underneath that arm. Look how far his arm travel his (white) arm travels. There's no way that long path is going to beat reds effort to pull his arm directly back.

If White takes a long path to get his arm under then he's not going to get under him as he's showing. What's going to happen is that Reds' arm that he pulls is going to be in the center resulting in an over under grab, where reds arm gets trapped between white's body, while whites arm goes under red's free arm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The initial arm thrust wasn't the actual movement, he was just showing the general principle.

I have come to the conclusion that
1. You are unable to see General Principles
2. You don't want accept the General Principles that people are trying to show because you are stuck on hollywood kung fu

 

[Hanzou]

ha ha ha. Dude if you are grappling against a resisting partner that arm isn't going to swing way out like that. You are going to have a tight spot to get that arm through which means you have to bring your arm closer to your body in order to quick get underneath that arm. Look how far his arm travel his (white) arm travels. There's no way that long path is going to beat reds effort to pull his arm directly back.

If White takes a long path to get his arm under then he's not going to get under him as he's showing. What's going to happen is that Reds' arm that he pulls is going to be in the center resulting in an over under grab, where reds arm gets trapped between white's body, while whites arm goes under red's free arm.

It’s a demonstration at half speed. If you want to see it at full speed where he is actually applying what he is talking about,, just watch the next 10 seconds of the video.

I mean seriously, you’re arguing that a black belt in BJJ doesn’t know how to properly arm drag when you mistakenly thought he was doing a spear hand.

 

[RavenDarkfellow]

If White takes a long path to get his arm under then he's not going to get under him as he's showing. What's going to happen is that Reds' arm that he pulls is going to be in the center resulting in an over under grab, where reds arm gets trapped between white's body, while whites arm goes under red's free arm.

It's true, that is the more likely outcome of this technique-- that the defender (red) will pull his arm back into position. However, just as with Gung Fu (or any other style) of techniques, you have to examine this from a step-by-step moment-to-moment angle, and apply real-world physics, in order to discuss the theory.

So when the attacker performs the arm-drag, one of two things will happen (assuming the defender actively defends, and doesn't just get dragged to the ground/wherever the attacker wants)

1. Defender is pulled off-balance with arm extended for just a moment (after which he will almost certainly attempt to re-centre the arm close to his body, or else attempt to wrap the attacker as a counter-attack).

2. Defender is stronger than attacker and/or has better positional balance, and the attacker's opening to the technique will simply fail.

In the case of #1, this technique will work. The technique is counting on this to be the case.

In the case of #2, the attacker will either attempt to drag again or be forced to move on to something else.

This technique and the issues with it however, display the primary weakness of wrestling in general: it relies on raw strength too much for all of its techniques.

(ASIDE: That said, yes, I understand that having better wrestling can allow you to win against opponents who are stronger/bigger than you-- but bigger/stronger opponents is a greater disadvantage in wrestling than it is in any other combat art I've ever encountered. Wrestling works great, but it is really un-fun to wrestle with guys who outweigh/outlift you, and I don't find that same issue in any of the other 10+ arts I've trained in. )


I guess the original point of this post is that the technique can work; but the weaknesses JowGa pointed out are true.

CLARIFICATION: It will work due to momentum and balance. The defender will have to spend a "beat" recovering balance and retrieving his arm position. In that same moment, the attacker can simultaneously drop his level, and reposition his arm below the defender's. Even if the defender recovers his arm to centre-mass at that point, the attacker's arm will be below it. The question becomes whether the attacker is strong/skilled enough to move the defender fully in the first place-- and if not, is he fast enough to get his arm below the defender's anyway.

It leaves a lot to circumstance, which a lot of martial artists (myself included) would argue means that it's not a very good/reliable technique.

You can consider my judgment in this biased, however, because I am not a fan of wrestling (despite that I still actively train in it today).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Uh, I specifically said that the arm drag is NOT "crazy kung fu". I also said that the arm drag is definitely not exclusive to CMA, so it wouldn't fall under his own definition of "switch hands".

The definition of "switch hands" is:

1. Use your 1st hand to contact your opponent's body.
2. Use your 2nd hand to contact your opponent's body.
3. Free your 1st hand to do whatever that you want to do (such as wrap around your opponent's waist, punch on his face, ...).

It's like to play football. I carry the ball (my right hand). My opponent tries to stop me. My team member (my left hand) takes over the defense for me, so I can continue my running (free my right hand).

So the arm drag is a switch hands. But switch hands can be much more than just the arm drag.

The "switch hands" is a strategy/principle. It's not a single technique (such as arm drag).

What Bruce Lee did was a "switch hands". He first makes his right arm to contact on his opponent's right arm. He then let his left hand to take over (switch), this free his right hand, so his right hand can punch at his opponent's face.

 

[Hanzou]

It's true, that is the more likely outcome of this technique-- that the defender (red) will pull his arm back into position. However, just as with Gung Fu (or any other style) of techniques, you have to examine this from a step-by-step moment-to-moment angle, and apply real-world physics, in order to discuss the theory.

Except JowGa is basing that observation on a demonstration of the principles of the technique, not the actual technique itself. The actual technique begins at 3:37 in this video. Feel free to critique that.

 

[Hanzou]

So the arm drag is a switch hands.

The "switch hands" is a strategy/principle. It's not a single technique (such as arm drag).

You do understand that this is an inherent contradiction right?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You do understand that this is an inherent contradiction right?

The switch hands is a principle. The arm drag is a technique. The switch hands is a set. The arm drag is an element in that set.

If you start with a principle, the principle can map into many different techniques. By using the definition of switch hands, many fancy CMA moves can be explained.

For example, this is a switch hands. You throw a right hammer fist and your opponent blocks it. You let your left hand to take over that block, your right hand then throw another hammer fist.

The switch hands exist in the Taiji form in many different place with many different applications.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The switch hand principle make the CMA different from the boxing.

- In boxing, if I throw a punch and you block, I will throw the 2nd punch aiming the opening that created by your block.
- In CMA, if I throw a punch and you block, I will use my other hand to take over your block, allow my punching hand to continue strike.

Which approach is better? IMO, boxing approach is faster. CMA approach is safer (because you can control one of your opponent's arms). Since CMA has arm control in mind, the CMA can be much easier to integrate the grappling art than the boxing art can.

 

[Hanzou]

The switch hand principle make the CMA different from the boxing.

- In boxing, if I throw a punch and you block, I will throw the 2nd punch aiming the opening that created by your block.
- In CMA, if I throw a punch and you block, I will use my other hand to take over your block, allow my punching hand to continue strike.

Which approach is better? IMO, boxing approach is faster. CMA approach is safer (because you can control one of your opponent's arms).

You didn't answer my question.....

Anyway, the boxing approach is better because having both your hands engaged in that fashion leaves you open to a counter attack. I don't know how you rationalize that it is safer.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You didn't answer my question.....

Anyway, the boxing approach is better because having both your hands engaged in that fashion leaves you open to a counter attack. I don't know how you rationalize that it is safer.

Which question? An element belong to a set?

You are a grappler. You know how important it is to be able to control your opponent's arm/arms. When I can use one of my arms to control one of your arms, I can use your arm to jam your other arm, so your other arm won't be able to punch me. It's safer for me in that sense.

If you and I fight, do you prefer to knock me down with 1 clean punch (CMA way of fight), or do you prefer to hit me 100 times and allow me to hit you 99 times (boxing way of fight)?

Here is an example to use your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. Can his opponent punch out with other hand? I think not.

 

[Hanzou]

Which question? An element belong to a set?

You are a grappler. You know how important it is to be able to control your opponent's arm/arms. When I can use one of my arms to control one of your arms, I can use your arm to jam your other arm, so your other arm won't be able to punch me. It's safer for me in that sense.

Yeah, but you're talking about striking. If someone has blocked your strike, it's kind of weird to grab their block with your other hand and attempt to continue the blocked strike. You're overcommitting, and will more than likely get socked in the face. Honestly you'll probably get socked twice depending on how good of a counter puncher you're dealing with.

This isn't anything new btw. There's a reason San Shou/Sanda went with western boxing over traditional Chinese Kung Fu for their hand strikes.

If you and I fight, do you prefer to knock me down with 1 clean punch (CMA way of fight), or do you prefer to hit me 100 times and allow me to hit you 99 times (boxing way of fight)?

Here is an example to use your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. Can his opponent punch out with other hand? I think not.

Uh, there's plenty of boxers who can knock you on your butt with one punch. Again, there's a reason professional fighters use western boxing over traditional Japanese and Chinese boxing. It's simply the superior method.

As for your gifs, I think you would be better served showing professional fighters using the theory you're talking about in actual fights. Bruce Lee for example looks great in demos, but he never fought professionally.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If someone has blocked your strike, it's kind of weird to grab their block with your other hand and attempt to continue the blocked strike. You're overcommitting, and will more than likely get socked in the face. Honestly you'll probably get socked twice depending on how good of a counter puncher you're dealing with.

I truly don't understand what you are talking about here.

When I use switch hands, my 2nd hand will control my opponent's elbow joint (This will eliminate that arm mobility). I then push that arm to jam his other arm (This will eliminate his other arm mobility). Unless he has the 3rd arm. I just don't see where that punch can come out.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't believe the "switch hands" concept exist in non-CMA.

I’ve seen it demonstrated fairly often in Filipino martial arts.

 

[Hanzou]

I truly don't understand what you are talking about here.

When I use switch hands, my 2nd hand will control my opponent's elbow joint (This will eliminate that arm mobility). I then push that arm to jam his other arm (This will eliminate his other arm mobility). Unless he has the 3rd arm. I just don't see where that punch can come out.

It's kind of pointless debating theory when application has settled this decades ago. It's like arguing which weapon is better for the infantry, a musket or an assault rifle? Again, why do professional fighters (even Chinese based professional fighters) choose western boxing over Kung Fu for hand techniques if "switch hands" and CMA is the better option?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's kind of pointless debating theory when application has settled this decades ago. It's like arguing which weapon is better for the infantry, a musket or an assault rifle? Again, why do professional fighters (even Chinese based professional fighters) choose western boxing over Kung Fu for hand techniques if "switch hands" and CMA is the better option?

If you like arm drag, why don't you like switch hand? The switch hands is just more "abstract".

When I use the term "back hand reverse punch", MMA guy may say it's bad. But when I use the term "cross", MMA guy will say it's good. I don't understand. Both are the same thing with different terms.

One day when the striking art and the grappling art will be fully integrated, I guarantee that you will see switch hands concept be used in MMA. It's a nice bridge to link the striking art with the grappling art.

It's a principle. Whether you use it or not, It's all over the CMA.

Here is another switch hands in Taiji form.