Kung fu in MMA Wins

[JowGaWolf]

BTW, would you be able to tell what style of Kung-Fu is this dude? Thanks. Lanham Kids Martial Arts Instructors - Dragon Academy Of Martial Arts - Lanham , Maryland (Shifu Sean Sexton)

I can't tell what style they do and they don't say what type they do other than Tai Chi. They say they come from the Dennis Brown school which I assume they are talking about the one in Washington DC. I'm not big on Kung Fu schools having Black Belts but that's just me and my old ways I guess. I think Dennis Brown does Shoalin and Wu Shu. So I'm not sure why they don't put that front and center. Maybe they did but I missed it. Gotta get my mile walk in for tonight. I'll take a look at the rest. later

 

[Hanzou]

That is not what I'm saying. Think of it this way.

If your techniques cannot land on me then how do you expect to get desirable results?

Dude, you're literally saying that you spend your time perfecting punching and kicking so that when you actually hit someone with intent you will injure, disable, or even kill them. You're even saying that you tell your students to let people drown in their own blood if they mess with them. Heck, you started this thread by being ecstatic about someone getting their knee possibly blown out because it resembled a kick from Kung fu.

Yet somehow you guys aren't like those Muay Thai guys right? Nah, you're all about "more than just fighting"! In reality you aren't. You just pad what you're doing with a bunch of fluff. Your goals are exactly the same as anyone else.

You're backing up everything I'm saying, you just don't want to admit it.

 

[Hanzou]

BTW, would you be able to tell what style of Kung-Fu is this dude? Thanks. Lanham Kids Martial Arts Instructors - Dragon Academy Of Martial Arts - Lanham , Maryland (Shifu Sean Sexton)

Supposedly it's Tien Shan Pai. A northern style of Kung Fu.

And it's also supposedly all BS;

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[Gerry Seymour]

I’m reading as any “Tennis Player” with a capital T and P is someone who competes on a professional level. Then a tennis player with small t and p is a person who plays for fun, may become quite skilled, but is never on the same level as a pro. The very skilled amateur is unlikely to beat the pro, who trains to be a pro.

Same thing with martial arts. Lots of people can train for the enjoyment of training, and develop very functional skills that they can use quite effectively. But a pro fighter trains on a higher level, with greater dedication. Very few people train to that level, if they are not a pro. Pros make up a very small minority of the overall population of martial artist. So a very skilled “hobbies/amateur/recreational” (most of us, by far), whatever label you want to use, would be unlikely to beat a pro in the very very unlikely Chance they they might find themselves in a self-defense scenario against a pro.

But against most other folks, they have the skills to hold the line.

That works as a distinction for me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Can we actually consider Shin-Shin Toitsu a martial art though? It's also known as Japanese yoga.

And yeah, I know there are people who practice Tai Chi, and have no interest in using it for self defense purposes. However, Tai Chi in many cases is NOT advertised as a martial art, it's advertised as an exercise that old folks can do in parks and improve their health.

We're not really talking about stuff like that though. We're talking about actual Martial Art styles that can supposedly teach you how to disable someone with a kick above the kneecap.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Shin-shin Toitsu is also a style of Aikido (heavily influenced by the yoga style it takes the name from) - it's where Kohei took Aikido when he left the Aikikai.

My point about Tai Chi was that it's an offshoot from a MA. It was taken to a non-martial place by folks who wanted to use that martial art for something distinctly besides developing fighting skill. And now that's what it's best known for among the general public (though the full martial art does still exist).

 

[Steve]

They can martial, just not at the level of fighting function. They have the ability to do the image of war, but not the function of war.


This is true. But your competence is not your student's competence. At least I hope not lol. Just because Mike Tyson is your coach doesn't mean you will be as great as Mike Tyson. There's a possibility that you may be worse with Mike Tyson than with someone who is competent but lacks Mike Tyson's ability. This is a big error that Kung Fu student make when they brag about their lineage. They think being in the lineage some house will naturally make them a competent fighter.

But over all the teacher should be competent of what they teach even though they may not be the best fighter. By the way. I'm not disagreeing with your comment. I'm just adding the variables.

I’m not talking about the instructor’s students though. I’m talking about the instructor. I don’t really know what to say about the “appearance of war”. That makes no sense to me, unless you think acting is a martial art if it involves the appearance of fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I can't tell what style they do and they don't say what type they do other than Tai Chi. They say they come from the Dennis Brown school which I assume they are talking about the one in Washington DC. I'm not big on Kung Fu schools having Black Belts but that's just me and my old ways I guess. I think Dennis Brown does Shoalin and Wu Shu. So I'm not sure why they don't put that front and center. Maybe they did but I missed it. Gotta get my mile walk in for tonight. I'll take a look at the rest. later

4th degree black belt and kung fu (unknown) 3rd degree black belt in Tai chi (I never hear of belts in Tai Chi, but maybe things changed). Saw the rest of the video I was looking at. it looks like Wushu.

This is Dennis Brown

I took a look at Dennis Brown school and I didn't see any mention of a belt system. His students weren't wearing belts either. Which would be the norm for Kung Fu.

 

[Flying Crane]

4th degree black belt and kung fu (unknown) 3rd degree black belt in Tai chi (I never hear of belts in Tai Chi, but maybe things changed). Saw the rest of the video I was looking at. it looks like Wushu.

This is Dennis Brown

His bio says Tien Shen Pai.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’m not talking about the instructor’s students though. I’m talking about the instructor. I don’t really know what to say about the “appearance of war”. That makes no sense to me, unless you think acting is a martial art if it involves the appearance of fighting.

I was referring to the instructor as well when I said they should be competent. I agree with that 100%. "The appearance of war." refers to those who make others think they are tougher than what they are capable of. For example, the guy that walks around looking tough and bragging about who he beat and how many. He may be built muscular but it's all just the appearance. There is little or no substance to support it.

This is the appearance of "Martial" they can do this. Notice it says "Fighting Demonstration" So yeah they can do the "Martial" but there's a good chance it's not functional.

 

[JowGaWolf]

His bio says Tien Shen Pai.

Thanks. I went to the instructors page but didn't realize his name was a link

 

[JowGaWolf]

His bio says Tien Shen Pai.

I wonder if this is him. Just by looking at the comfort that he moves. It looks like he knows his stuff. He pulls the hair and then throws a punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

yep. he just keeps pecking away that that stance

 

[JowGaWolf]

Dude, you're literally saying that you spend your time perfecting punching and kicking so that when you actually hit someone with intent you will injure, disable, or even kill them.

Again no. I spend my time learning how to land Jow Ga techniques against resisting and attacking opponents. No one I have sparred has been disabled, or died. lol.

The thing that I practice to learn how to injure people deals more with how to drive power. I can land a technique but if it has no power then it won't injure. I do not practice generating power in sparring or with students. I use other methods to develop power and different methods to develop speed. Your brain is probably about to explode right about now lol.

Yet somehow you guys aren't like those Muay Thai guys right? Nah, you're all about "more than just fighting"! In reality you aren't. You just pad what you're doing with a bunch of fluff. Your goals are exactly the same as anyone else.

In Jow Ga ,and I believe most traditional martial arts, We are closer to this version of Muay Thai

1. Train forms
2. Understand Applications in forms - All students are randomly quizzed to explain application from the form
3. Drill Application - This is where most kung fu students stop.

4. Spar - At this point you have a handful that are serious about this.

5. Spar using technique from Drill

6. Spar using technique from Form - At this point you only get those who want to venture into fighting function of the system. Most of the people you see doing kung fu sparring or fighting are not at this level.

7. Spar using variation of technique application.


The majority of kung fu students are happy with 1 - 3.

To show you just how similar.

Muay Thai Boran has a Punching form. Jow Ga has a punching form. I will give you the kung Fu equivalent the techniques here.
@:36 Lead jab or in Jow Ga simply "punch" I've shown videos of this training my son. In Jow Ga we do not cover our head with the other hand.

@ :49 in Jow Ga and other systems lead punch into thrust punch.

@ :1:23 Jow Ga and other systems Reverse punch

@ 2:00 Jow Ga and other systems Hammer fist.

@ 2:19 uppercut Jow Ga and some other systems Pow Choy. We can throw single has show or use a big wheel motion.

@2:42 overhand In Jow Ga Kup Choy But we do not hit with the knuckles that they are striking with, but it takes the same path. Some of you guys in this forum may have seen me do similar punches in my videos.

@3:18 In Jow Ga this would be a Luk Choy

@3:26 Same punch they are just doubling up on it.

@3:36 Jow Ga this is a Pow Choy to the body

@4:12 Pak Guerk. This is a very common kick in Chinese martial arts.

@ 4:56 Double punches. We have one that is horizontal and one that is vertical like this but it's practiced in horse stance in the form I don't remember I don't think it's in any of the forms I know. Maybe it's in some of the advanced forms

@ 5:31. Shadowless kick with punch similar to the video below.

We are far from the Muay Thai that you have in mind.











.

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Shin-shin Toitsu is also a style of Aikido (heavily influenced by the yoga style it takes the name from) - it's where Kohei took Aikido when he left the Aikikai.

My point about Tai Chi was that it's an offshoot from a MA. It was taken to a non-martial place by folks who wanted to use that martial art for something distinctly besides developing fighting skill. And now that's what it's best known for among the general public (though the full martial art does still exist).

Indeed. However, my point is that when you’re taking up Tai Chi, very rarely is it advertised as a fighting art. It’s almost always advertised as an exercise to improve health.

On the other hand, Aikido for example is still pushed as a method of self defense. I’ve even seen some schools state that Aikido can help you overcome multiple attackers.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Supposedly it's Tien Shan Pai. A northern style of Kung Fu.

And it's also supposedly all BS;

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From some of the things I saw, it looks like Dean Chin (Jow Ga) knew of the school. Looks like their schools were one of the few Kung Fu schools around back then. I wonder if any of the old Jow Ga students back then remember this school.

 

[Hanzou]

Again no. I spend my time learning how to land Jow Ga techniques against resisting and attacking opponents. No one I have sparred has been disabled, or died. lol.

Wow… Clearly I’m not talking about when you’re sparring with your classmates, I’m talking about when you’re applying your technique against an assailant.

Hence YOUR statement that you tell your students to strike their attackers nose and let them drown in their own blood. That sounds like disabling and possibly killing someone to me.

The thing that I practice to learn how to injure people deals more with how to drive power. I can land a technique but if it has no power then it won't injure. I do not practice generating power in sparring or with students. I use other methods to develop power and different methods to develop speed. Your brain is probably about to explode right about now lol.

Nothing you’re saying here disagrees with anything that I said in my response. Again, you’re backing up everything I said about you and your system.

In Jow Ga ,and I believe most traditional martial arts, We are closer to this version of Muay Thai

1. Train forms
2. Understand Applications in forms - All students are randomly quizzed to explain application from the form
3. Drill Application - This is where most kung fu students stop.

4. Spar - At this point you have a handful that are serious about this.

5. Spar using technique from Drill

6. Spar using technique from Form - At this point you only get those who want to venture into fighting function of the system. Most of the people you see doing kung fu sparring or fighting are not at this level.

7. Spar using variation of technique application.


The majority of kung fu students are happy with 1 - 3.

To show you just how similar.

Muay Thai Boran has a Punching form. Jow Ga has a punching form. I will give you the kung Fu equivalent the techniques here.
@:36 Lead jab or in Jow Ga simply "punch" I've shown videos of this training my son. In Jow Ga we do not cover our head with the other hand.

@ :49 in Jow Ga and other systems lead punch into thrust punch.

@ :1:23 Jow Ga and other systems Reverse punch

@ 2:00 Jow Ga and other systems Hammer fist.

@ 2:19 uppercut Jow Ga and some other systems Pow Choy. We can throw single has show or use a big wheel motion.

@2:42 overhand In Jow Ga Kup Choy But we do not hit with the knuckles that they are striking with, but it takes the same path. Some of you guys in this forum may have seen me do similar punches in my videos.

@3:18 In Jow Ga this would be a Luk Choy

@3:26 Same punch they are just doubling up on it.

@3:36 Jow Ga this is a Pow Choy to the body

@4:12 Pak Guerk. This is a very common kick in Chinese martial arts.

@ 4:56 Double punches. We have one that is horizontal and one that is vertical like this but it's practiced in horse stance in the form I don't remember I don't think it's in any of the forms I know. Maybe it's in some of the advanced forms

@ 5:31. Shadowless kick with punch similar to the video below.

We are far from the Muay Thai that you have in mind..

What’s the point of these irrelevant tangents? Yeah, I know your style is more similar to the traditional version of Muay Thai; the version that (like your Kung Fu system)is loaded with more fluff than the more modern (and frankly more effective) version of Muay Thai

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hence YOUR statement that you tell your students to strike their attackers nose and let them drown in their own blood. That sounds like disabling and possibly killing someone to me.

The truth of those quotes is about the mindset one should have when being violently attacked on the streets. So if I attack you in the streets, this is the mindset that you should have towards my well-being in the context of defending yourself. It doesn't take into consideration your ability. Even if you don't know how to fight. This is the mindset or the seriousness in which you should defend yourself against me. It doesn't mean you are going to make me drown in my blood, but you will attack me with that level of violence.

One's ability to do so is another issue. This is why these quotes are associated with the mindset that a person should have when dealing with a violent attacker.

 

[jayoliver00]

Supposedly it's Tien Shan Pai. A northern style of Kung Fu.

And it's also supposedly all BS;

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Thanks. Yeah, that's it, now I remember that he said something like that.

This guy's legit though. I sparred with him at a sparring meet of any style; it was just light sparring and he's good. This was right after I beat one of his top guys both standup and on the ground. They have some interesting angles & movements.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. Mindset for a deadly street attack.

Is to adopt the role of a boring percentage fighter. Damage is secondary.

If you can be positioned where you are safe and where his weapons are shut down. Stay there.

It is when you get excited and go for those bombs that you open yourself to a mayday counter or a sweep.

 

[jayoliver00]

When I was actively and obsessively training capoeira, I was in the best physical shape of my life.

Very true. Our gym had a very large Capoeira program of at least 50 students. 90% of the people were in very, very, very good shape. Maybe 5% a little chubby when they first started; but def. none of that fat BJJ Black Belts in da house, haha....although they're still killers (and just a few biggums). Lots of pretty girls and very social of a club so lots of BJJ & MT guys joined.