Kung fu in MMA Wins

[JowGaWolf]

That's interesting but I question what all of this functional training is for? It seems for show, more than anything else.

I forgot to reply to this one. That's a can of worms there. Because how one defines functional will change everything.There are some valid Jow Ga techniques that are done in forms competition, but if you translate them directly as you see it in the forms and in timing then you'll get knocked out. I personally don't like that part about how some Jow Ga practitioners do their forms. To me it just makes it confusing to have to decode everytthing.

 

[Steve]

Hmm...I'll think about that analogy a bit, but I don't think it quite covers the gamut of MA training. The easiest example is folks who "do Tai Chi" for health. That'd be like someone making candles out of the soap (if it would burn.....would it?).

I would say, if you're making candles out of soap, you're doing both wrong. Also, for what it's worth, I don't think you can make a candle out of soap. You might (don't know for sure) be able to do something chemically to turn soap into something that can be turned into a candle, but that's a bit of a stretch. Soap is made from oils and lye, not wax, and so it isn't well suited for that purpose.

Now that I think about it, maybe tai chi is like a soap candle.

 

[Alan0354]

And if you lack flexibility in the hamstrings (a lifetime issue for me), you lose effective height, as well. Even at my most flexible and active, my hamstrings acted like I never stretched.

I am ok at this department, at least I can touch my toes. The problem is if I kick higher with the ball of the foot, I cannot penetrate as the angle is too steep. It just slide up the heavy bag instead of penetrate into the bag. I try to raise my knee as high as possible, it helps a little, but still not quite good enough. I want to kick to the opponent's solarplex......which is higher than mine!!!

If I kick in the air, I can kick higher. I can kick close to my own neck. I am sure if flexibility is my problem, I would put much more effort to stretch, but that's not my problem, my problem is lag of penetration when kicking high. If only I am flexible enough to kick to the jaw, then it's a different story, then it would be like an upper cut where the direction of hitting is upward. But I don't have that flexibility and height.

I am only 5'5", obviously my leg is shorter too!! so it makes it hard to kick high. Opponent's solarplex is my chest high!!! There comes my problem. Again !!!

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am only 5'5", obviously my leg is shorter too!! so it makes it hard to kick high. Opponent's solarplex is my chest high!!! There comes my problem. Again !!!

So kick only as high as yours. Problem solved. lol

 

[Flying Crane]

Okay, so you actually used the term "recreational tennis player". That term, in and of itself, suggests one can be a tennis player at a recreational level. Which is what I'd consider the time I spent on a tennis court in my 20's.

It's like when someone asks if I'm a golfer. I tell them I used to be, but haven't played in years. I was never competitive (except in amateur long-drive competitions), but I played a lot. I played golf, like I had once played tennis.

I guess I'm having trouble figuring out where your distinction is between "someone who plays tennis" and a "tennis player".

I’m reading as any “Tennis Player” with a capital T and P is someone who competes on a professional level. Then a tennis player with small t and p is a person who plays for fun, may become quite skilled, but is never on the same level as a pro. The very skilled amateur is unlikely to beat the pro, who trains to be a pro.

Same thing with martial arts. Lots of people can train for the enjoyment of training, and develop very functional skills that they can use quite effectively. But a pro fighter trains on a higher level, with greater dedication. Very few people train to that level, if they are not a pro. Pros make up a very small minority of the overall population of martial artist. So a very skilled “hobbies/amateur/recreational” (most of us, by far), whatever label you want to use, would be unlikely to beat a pro in the very very unlikely Chance they they might find themselves in a self-defense scenario against a pro.

But against most other folks, they have the skills to hold the line.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't think we're acres apart on this. The main difference I see is that you don't think it's possible for someone to choose something like martial arts without being interested in being able to actually use the techniques for the original purpose. I just don't agree with that. I suspect there are large numbers of folks in Shin-Shin Toitsu who really have little to no interest in the martial application. The wording on the main organization website (which seems to entirely lack reference to self-defense or fighting) suggests that population exists. And I don't think it requires they are dishonest to make that claim. Lots of people practice "Tai Chi", which is derived from (and maybe even an accurate subset of) Taiji Chuan, as I understand it. And none of the old folks I've met who "do Tai Chi" ever once referred to self-defense as a purpose. Many of them may not know it's derived from a martial art. I've done a bit of Tai Chi, and never once thought it was really contributing to fighting ability any more than the jazz dance classes I took back in college.

Can we actually consider Shin-Shin Toitsu a martial art though? It's also known as Japanese yoga.

And yeah, I know there are people who practice Tai Chi, and have no interest in using it for self defense purposes. However, Tai Chi in many cases is NOT advertised as a martial art, it's advertised as an exercise that old folks can do in parks and improve their health.

We're not really talking about stuff like that though. We're talking about actual Martial Art styles that can supposedly teach you how to disable someone with a kick above the kneecap.

 

[Steve]

I’m reading as any “Tennis Player” with a capital T and P is someone who competes on a professional level. Then a tennis player with small t and p is a person who plays for fun, may become quite skilled, but is never on the same level as a pro. The very skilled amateur is unlikely to beat the pro, who trains to be a pro.

Same thing with martial arts. Lots of people can train for the enjoyment of training, and develop very functional skills that they can use quite effectively. But a pro fighter trains on a higher level, with greater dedication. Very few people train to that level, if they are not a pro. Pros make up a very small minority of the overall population of martial artist. So a very skilled “hobbies/amateur/recreational” (most of us, by far), whatever label you want to use, would be unlikely to beat a pro in the very very unlikely Chance they they might find themselves in a self-defense scenario against a pro.

But against most other folks, they have the skills to hold the line.

Even the most casual of hobbyist tennis players play tennis. Some... many hobbyist martial artists don't or can't "martial".

And if you're running a school or taking other people's money, you are by definition a professional... you should be competent.

To put a fine point on it, sure a lot of people train for enjoyment, and develop very functional skills that they can use quite effectively. We see this all the time in BJJ and other similar arts. We're not talking about those folks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If I kick in the air, I can kick higher. I can kick close to my own neck. I am sure if flexibility is my problem, I would put much more effort to stretch, but that's not my problem, my problem is lag of penetration when kicking high. If only I am flexible enough to kick to the jaw, then it's a different story, then it would be like an upper cut where the direction of hitting is upward. But I don't have that flexibility and height.

So here's the thing. There's a limit on how high can kick effectively, and your height doesn't have as much to do with that limit as you might think. Core strength is key. There is a pretty easy way to see what that limit is.
Lift and extend your leg as you would if you were throwing the kick, but slowly. Extend it fully. Lift it (maintaining proper body position) as high as you can. Lift it, don't throw it. However high you can hold the foot, that is the highest you can kick with full power. The further your target is above that point, the weaker your kick will be.

I am only 5'5", obviously my leg is shorter too!! so it makes it hard to kick high. Opponent's solarplex is my chest high!!! There comes my problem. Again !!!

So work on your core. You can also shorten your opponent.

 

[Hanzou]

In terms of fighting the only thing I really care about is my ability to land a technique, escape from injury, escape from a situation I can't win. The only exception for be getting my butt kicked is if it helps someone else to escape and even then, I'm thinking more about distraction and not being someone's punching bag.

As for the primary reason. That's up to the person training the system. I have no control over that . But what I do believe is that we do ourselves a disservice in believing that the primary reason for the fighting system is to be good at violence. I embrace that and lecture students about that all the time. This is why I'm not a big fan of schools that take functional martial arts and turned into a non-violent mentality.

In short, you're trained to protect yourself utilizing violence. Yeah, it can be self defense, but you're still utilizing violence to end violence. When you say "the ONLY thing I really care about is my ability to land a technique", what you're actually saying is that you want your blow to have the desired effect on your would be assailant. Tell me, when you kick someone in the face, what's the desired effect? When you punch someone in the ribs, what's the desired effect? It certainly isn't to make them feel good.

I mean in all seriousness, you're dedicating years of your life attempting to perfect a method of fighting, and you don't consider yourself a fighter?

I believe in balance and when they do that. They ignore the violence behind the system instead of balancing it out. But that's just me. Not a right or wrong issue for me. Just a personal perspective. But for the most part I agree with your statement.


Ahhh.. sorry I misunderstood you. then because that 's the perspective I thought you were speaking about "fighting" That's where I was missing what you were meaning.

You teach your students a non-violent philosophy in order to prevent them from taking the violence that you're teaching them, and using it on other people without provocation. This occurs in all martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In short, you're trained to protect yourself utilizing violence. Yeah, it can be self defense, but you're still utilizing violence to end violence. When you say "the ONLY thing I really care about is my ability to land a technique", what you're actually saying is that you want your blow to have the desired effect on your would be assailant.

That is not what I'm saying. Think of it this way.

If your techniques cannot land on me then how do you expect to get desirable results?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Even the most casual of hobbyist tennis players play tennis. Some... many hobbyist martial artists don't or can't "martial"

They can martial, just not at the level of fighting function. They have the ability to do the image of war, but not the function of war.

And if you're running a school or taking other people's money, you are by definition a professional... you should be competent.

This is true. But your competence is not your student's competence. At least I hope not lol. Just because Mike Tyson is your coach doesn't mean you will be as great as Mike Tyson. There's a possibility that you may be worse with Mike Tyson than with someone who is competent but lacks Mike Tyson's ability. This is a big error that Kung Fu student make when they brag about their lineage. They think being in the lineage some house will naturally make them a competent fighter.

But over all the teacher should be competent of what they teach even though they may not be the best fighter. By the way. I'm not disagreeing with your comment. I'm just adding the variables.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can also shorten your opponent.

exactly

 

[JowGaWolf]

You teach your students a non-violent philosophy in order to prevent them from taking the violence that you're teaching them, and using it on other people without provocation. This occurs in all martial arts.

I don't teach non-violent philosophy in my classes. I only say 2 quotes.:
1. To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself.
2. Strike your enemies nose and let them drown on their own blood.

I also teach them not to let their emotion dictate control their violence. One of my personal sayings is "Your emotions should be like those you have when you step on an ant. You are neither mad, sad, or afraid. You just do it. Step on it without any thought of it's existence or the value of it.

Emotions lead people to do stupid things especially when it comes to violence. It clouds the mind and the the body's actions. Look at the Chaos in the U.S. driving by anger, distrusts, fear, and jealousy. All of that clouds the mind and the actions. Sort of like when people here push someone's button. You get an instant reaction born of emotion and not thought. I'm not perfect, it happens to me sometimes too. But at least when it happens to me, I eventually become aware of it and start to correct my path. Those who don't become aware of it will continue to let those emotions dictate thinking and action.

The first thing I do to eat away of the misconceptions that my student had was to simply say. There is no peace from Violence in martial arts which is why some of the techniques break bones. Then I ask them to name one Jow Ga technique that is designed to make your opponent happy.

I rather embrace violence so that I'm aware of my own "monster" that needs to be controlled, than to teach non-violence philosophies about a martial arts systems designed to harm others.

 

[jayoliver00]

Functional training is just that. The ability to use the skill sets and techniques being taught.


I haven't trained with swords yet but it's on the list. I'm currently training with my Son to be functional with staff fighting. This doesn't mean that I'm training to be a martial arts staff fighter. It just means I'm learning to be functional with the staff skills that I can use them if I need them. I find enjoyment that my staff skills are not just for show, that I can actually be functional with them.

Things like this appeal to me. If I only train my staff for show then I won't be good in things like this.

You can still be functional with swords. That's what's fencing is. You can take fencing for the enjoyment of it. There's no requirement to compete beyond your club. There's also no push to use a sword in a street fight. You just posses the skill sets to functionally fight with a sword.

Thanks for the explanation.

If I wanted to learn & spar full power with staff (something that I'm really interested in & know nothing about), what would be the minimal safety gear requirement? Are those guys in the video, wearing specifically made armor for such sparring? This might be a stupid question, but what about motorcycle armor? I don't own neither, so I'm just wondering in case I get a motorcycle and then would have a dual purpose, purchase.

 

[jayoliver00]

Exept the chamber snap kicking style works for quite a few people.

Especially the question mark kick. Which has become a staple mma move.

Barbosa who I believe is a TKDer chambers his kicks.

And you can even watch him destroy a knee with a round kick.

True that the Question Mark kick is chambering it. I just meant the staple, roundhouse kick; MT style that many TKD's that I run into, do not seem to want to transition to. It's like, I don't go to a TKD school and insist on throwing RH's kicks my MT way; I will do what they tell me to if I wanted to learn TKD.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Now that I think about it, maybe tai chi is like a soap candle.

lol I blame you for the last 30 minutes of watching soap and candle videos lol. There are some really crazy things out there. I did however enjoy the video of a Professional Soap maker sharing her thoughts about the Soap making videos on youtube. Based on her reaction, there appears to be a lot of crap on youtube.

 

[jayoliver00]

Example, This may be considered as Fluff in MT

This may be considered as fluff in Boxing

Some may consider this fluff. No one fights like this; so the techniques must be fluff right?

To be fair though, there are certain degrees of fluff. Most TMA's have way too much fluff.

Like Capoeira can work, but there's way too much fluff. A lot of it wastes energy & are way too risky in a real fight.

The Muay Thai Wai Kru I wouldn't do b/c that's Asian mysticism. It's also not mandatory, in general.

While those Boxers are clearly feinting, albeit via showboating....pure awesomeness if you ask me. That joint works.

BTW, would you be able to tell what style of Kung-Fu is this dude? Thanks. Lanham Kids Martial Arts Instructors - Dragon Academy Of Martial Arts - Lanham , Maryland (Shifu Sean Sexton)

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I wanted to learn & spar full power with staff (something that I'm really interested in & know nothing about), what would be the minimal safety gear requirement?

I would like to know too. From what I can tell, This is what's needed:
1. Control
2. Lighter staff or rules of no head shots or attacking the joints
3. Full body equipment from head to toe. The stuff you probably need and is reliable is probably super expensive unless you are rich. I'm not lol.

If you don't get lighter staffs that flex then there's no way you can do full contact with a staff safely. There's a couple of videos of people sparring with full body protection and their staff's still have a lot of flex.

Kung Fu weapons sparring

I don't care for the foam sparring weapons, they tend to cause people to do things that they wouldn't do if it were a live blade. I would definitely do #1 and #2 No strikes to the head or controlled strikes.

Maybe this if you go full contact foam bo staff and some protective equipment.

For the armor I would wear equipment designed for blunt impact. Unfortunately there's no dedicated company for this type of equipment. people tend to mix match martial arts or fencing protective equipment. Or lacrosse equipment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Like Capoeira can work, but there's way too much fluff. A lot of it wastes energy & are way too risky in a real fight.

what if what you see as waste of energy is actually cardio and muscle endurance exercises not meant as fighting techniques but are used to help build fighting endurance. If that's the case would you still call it fluff? I'm not saying that's what it is, but in Jow Ga we integrate muscle training and muscle endurance in our forms. I know this because my legs will start burning, a get slower as my body fatigues and I breath really heavy from the cardio. I have some Jow Ga videos of a forms performance you can hear people in the background say. "Come on, push through, finish strong." They are saying that because they can see the person starting to fatigue.

This was always a thing of amusement of how a form could just zap the strength out you. And it never gets easier. Each form burns you out more than the previous form.

 

[Flying Crane]

To be fair though, there are certain degrees of fluff. Most TMA's have way too much fluff.

Like Capoeira can work, but there's way too much fluff. A lot of it wastes energy & are way too risky in a real fight.

The Muay Thai Wai Kru I wouldn't do b/c that's Asian mysticism. It's also not mandatory, in general.

While those Boxers are clearly feinting, albeit via showboating....pure awesomeness if you ask me. That joint works.

BTW, would you be able to tell what style of Kung-Fu is this dude? Thanks. Lanham Kids Martial Arts Instructors - Dragon Academy Of Martial Arts - Lanham , Maryland (Shifu Sean Sexton)

Tien Shan Pai, according to his bio. Also claims a background in taiji of some kind, boxing, jujitsu of some kind. Is this an example of something you would like is to look at?

what if what you see as waste of energy is actually cardio and muscle endurance exercises not meant as fighting techniques but are used to help build fighting endurance. If that's the case would you still call it fluff? I'm not saying that's what it is, but in Jow Ga we integrate muscle training and muscle endurance in our forms. I know this because my legs will start burning, a get slower as my body fatigues and I breath really heavy from the cardio. I have some Jow Ga videos of a forms performance you can hear people in the background say. "Come on, push through, finish strong." They are saying that because they can see the person starting to fatigue.

This was always a thing of amusement of how a form could just zap the strength out you. And it never gets easier. Each form burns you out more than the previous form.

When I was actively and obsessively training capoeira, I was in the best physical shape of my life.