kukiwon certification

[puunui]

The Palgwes were finished around the mid 1960s. In the early 1970s, that same committee, plus others from the JDK & MDK created the Taegueks, which were finished around 1972. Not sure when the official swap, if any was ever done.

The Palgwae poomsae and Yudanja poomsae were finished in 1968. The Taeguek poomsae and Koryo 2 was completed in 1972. If you are going to parrot me, at least do so accurately.

 

[puunui]

TKD there is oversen by the KKW.

Taekwondo in South Korea is governed and "overseen" by the Korea Taekwondo Association, not the Kukkiwon.

 

[puunui]

This even presents a problem with ITF dojangs there. One way some of them get around it is that many of them already are licensed by the KKW & they add the ITF program. The ITF is very, very small & weak, with only a few clubs scattered around the whole country.

I have a book about the ITF in South Korea. It is a 340 page book, and the first 240 or so pages basically compare the ITF and WTF, as well as add in some of the standard ITF history and photos.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I want to say 1995. Or earlier.

So in the 70's and 80's did they teach both palgwes and taegeks, or was it a transitional time to phase out the palgwes? Also, why did they see the need to get rid of the palgwes? Do any kukki schools still teach both sets or will the palgwes, with time, just disappear? Do you know both sets?, If so, what do you consider to be the strong/weak points of both?

 

[puunui]

So in the 70's and 80's did they teach both palgwes and taegeks, or was it a transitional time to phase out the palgwes? Also, why did they see the need to get rid of the palgwes? Do any kukki schools still teach both sets or will the palgwes, with time, just disappear? Do you know both sets?, If so, what do you consider to be the strong/weak points of both?

What happened was the the 1975 Kukkiwon Textbook listed the Palgwae poomsae as primary and the Taeguek poomsae as supplemental. The 1987 and 1995 edition reversed this, making the Taeguek poomsae primary and the Palgwae poomsae supplemental. The 2005 edition eliminated the Palgwae poomsae completely. I asked why they got rid of the Palgwae poomsae and forget the exact answer, but it was something along the lines of they were transitional and now obsolete and unnecessary. Many dojang still teach both, but the direction has been to teach the Taeguek poomsae for color belts and the Palgwae poomsae as supplemental training and curriculum for poom and dan holders. I used to know both sets but now I only practice the Taeguek poomsae. I don't analyze poomsae in terms of strong or weak points; I just do them because they are there. But I would say that the strong point of the Taeguek poomsae is that it is the recognized form now for Kukki Taekwondo and it is becoming the worldwide standard. If you go to a Kukkiwon Instructor Course for example, they will take you through the Taeguek poomsae. Palgwae is the opposite in that its weakness is that it is being phased out. You cannot use them at USAT events for example nor at WTF poomsae competition. My teacher invented Palgwae 3 and 8 and he told me to stop practicing the Palgwae poomsae.

 

[puunui]

Also Ralph, the Koryo that you do, is the floor pattern straight up and down in a single line, or are their branches? There are two versions of Koryo. The one most people do is the second version. You might be doing the first version. A friend of mine from Australia said he still does Koryo 1, in addition to Koryo 2.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Taekwondo in South Korea is governed and "overseen" by the Korea Taekwondo Association, not the Kukkiwon.

Yes & don't you need a license from the KKW? Aren't the black belt certificates needed also issued by the KKW at tests given at the KKW by regions on a regular basis?
That is what I meant, as doesn't the KTA follow the KKW?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I asked why they got rid of the Palgwae poomsae and forget the exact answer, but it was something along the lines of they were transitional and now obsolete and unnecessary.

Wasn't part of a stated reason that the committee that created the Taegueks included the MDK & JDK representatives, thus making it easier for unification?
I have also heard that the Palgwes were also still considered too karate.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I have a book about the ITF in South Korea. It is a 340 page book, and the first 240 or so pages basically compare the ITF and WTF, as well as add in some of the standard ITF history and photos.

Is this book in Korean?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Also Ralph, the Koryo that you do, is the floor pattern straight up and down in a single line, or are their branches? There are two versions of Koryo. The one most people do is the second version. You might be doing the first version. A friend of mine from Australia said he still does Koryo 1, in addition to Koryo 2.

This is the one we do

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes this is true. But also do not discount that in the northern half of Korea it is 100% ITF TKD. There is no WTF or Kukki TKD there. They have a significant TKD program, modeled after the eastern European, soviet bloc that identified early on talented TKDin, where they groom them all the way to the top.

True enough, but the population of North Korea is roughly 25 million, while South Korea is roughly 50...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Wasn't part of a stated reason that the committee that created the Taegueks included the MDK & JDK representatives, thus making it easier for unification?
I have also heard that the Palgwes were also still considered too karate.

It could make sense that they are 'too karate'. I did shotokan as a kid and 20 years later when I started tkd I took to the palgwes like a fish to water, they just felt natural.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What happened was the the 1975 Kukkiwon Textbook listed the Palgwae poomsae as primary and the Taeguek poomsae as supplemental. The 1987 and 1995 edition reversed this, making the Taeguek poomsae primary and the Palgwae poomsae supplemental. The 2005 edition eliminated the Palgwae poomsae completely. I asked why they got rid of the Palgwae poomsae and forget the exact answer, but it was something along the lines of they were transitional and now obsolete and unnecessary. Many dojang still teach both, but the direction has been to teach the Taeguek poomsae for color belts and the Palgwae poomsae as supplemental training and curriculum for poom and dan holders. I used to know both sets but now I only practice the Taeguek poomsae. I don't analyze poomsae in terms of strong or weak points; I just do them because they are there. But I would say that the strong point of the Taeguek poomsae is that it is the recognized form now for Kukki Taekwondo and it is becoming the worldwide standard. If you go to a Kukkiwon Instructor Course for example, they will take you through the Taeguek poomsae. Palgwae is the opposite in that its weakness is that it is being phased out. You cannot use them at USAT events for example nor at WTF poomsae competition. My teacher invented Palgwae 3 and 8 and he told me to stop practicing the Palgwae poomsae.

Thats interesting that your teacher invented palgwe 3 and 8, I love palgwe 8, it would be my favourite (closely followed by 7), it was the one they called for me to do at my 1st dan grading along with koryo. According to a 7th dan at our club, our GM had a close relationship (could have been his instructor) with the guy who invented some palgwes. Was there more than one person invoved in the invention of the palgwes?

 

[Dirty Dog]

We do not do the taeguek poomsae at all, in fact the only time I have seen them is at demos in my local area by kukki clubs. I know our GM does not like them at all, he knows them but did not want to swap from the palgwes as he is a big fan of the palgwe set and didnt want to stop teaching palgwes. An instructor I know who knows the taegueks has told me he prefers to teach the palgwes because they are harder to learn and the taegeks are easier. He said the taegeks are better for kids because they are a lot easier to learn but believes the kids should do the same forms as the adults. This is obviously just heresay because I dont know the taegeks, but students who have swapped over to our club from kukki clubs (and there are many of them) have commented on how much more difficult the palgwes are to learn. Just a question, when did the kukki cease to teach the palgwe set in favour of the taegueks?

This is true of the dojang where I train. Everybody learns the Palgwe poomse, though any who are interested can also learn the Taegeuks. I would agree that the Taegeuk are the easiest to learn, with Palgwe being more difficult, and Chang Hon being harder still. I've never tried to learn the Song Am or Pyung Ahn so I have no idea where they fit.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

This is true of the dojang where I train. Everybody learns the Palgwe poomse, though any who are interested can also learn the Taegeuks. I would agree that the Taegeuk are the easiest to learn, with Palgwe being more difficult, and Chang Hon being harder still. I've never tried to learn the Song Am or Pyung Ahn so I have no idea where they fit.

Thats interesting, Ive heard a few instructors say that they felt by introducing the taegueks they were 'dumbing things down' because they were easier than the palgwes. Not knowing the taegueks myself I havent known whether to believe this, but Im starting to hear more and more people say the taegueks are easier.

 

[andyjeffries]

Thanks for the link. That looks very similar to the way we do it. We wait 2 years between first and second dan (is that the same as kukki tkd?)

No, under the Kukkiwon regulations it's 1 year between first and second.

Our belt order is a little different to some in that we go from 3rd red belt (1st gup) to black belt (no dan, like a probationary black belt, although it is a black belt with no stripe), and then to 1st dan when we receive the first of our dan certificates and are given our dan number and a stripe on the belt.

The Kukkiwon Textbook makes a single reference to Cho Dan Bo (probationary black belt) but I've never heard of it in a dojang in England.

So in a round about way 1st dan is actually the second black belt along the way. We train for one year between black and 1st dan, 2years from 1st to 2nd, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd etc.

The Kukkiwon timings are the other way, you wait the number of years for the grade you are not the grade you're going for.

From what I understand we do the same order of poomsae as kukki clubs once black belt. Koryo, then keum gang, then teabek(?) etc.

Very cool. The Palgwae poomsae are shown on the Kukki-Taekwondo 2 DVD set* from (I believe) the 90s. I must have a bit more of a look in them, they do seem quite cool.

* The DVDs look like this

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No, under the Kukkiwon regulations it's 1 year between first and second.



The Kukkiwon Textbook makes a single reference to Cho Dan Bo (probationary black belt) but I've never heard of it in a dojang in England.



The Kukkiwon timings are the other way, you wait the number of years for the grade you are not the grade you're going for.



Very cool. The Palgwae poomsae are shown on the Kukki-Taekwondo 2 DVD set* from (I believe) the 90s. I must have a bit more of a look in them, they do seem quite cool.

* The DVDs look like this

We actually refer to our black belts as "cho dan bo" and 1st dans as 'cho dan', I looked up the meaning one time of cho dan bo and it meant something like 'the grade below 1st degree black belt' which had me confused as they were wearing a black belts but referred to as a cho dan bo. I asked about this and was told that our black belts are basically a probationary black belt and then after 1 years further training they get their first dan. The palgwes are cool and are worth learning if you have the time. They have long deep stances as opposed to the shorter stances Ive noticed in the taegueks. Palgwe 7 and 8 are good fun.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Was there more than one person invoved in the invention of the palgwes?

Yes I think GM Park Han Mae was instrumental. He is a recogonized expert on the forms. Some others may have been GMs Hyun Jong Myung & Kwak Kun Sik, all 3 were CDK. GMs Kim Soon Bae & Li Yong Sup also contributed. Not sure if there were more.
Then when the MDK joined in the unification efforts of the KTA after they split from GM Hwang Kee, the founder, Han Yong Tae, his student worked with GMs Lee Chong Woo (who may have been chair) & Bae Young Ki (both of the JDK). These additional 3 men, along with the Palgwe creators, made up the Taeguek committee in the early 1970s.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

This is true of the dojang where I train. Everybody learns the Palgwe poomse, though any who are interested can also learn the Taegeuks. I would agree that the Taegeuk are the easiest to learn, with Palgwe being more difficult, and Chang Hon being harder still. I've never tried to learn the Song Am or Pyung Ahn so I have no idea where they fit.

So you know 3 sets of patterns?
Why do you say the Chang Hon Tuls are the hardest to learn?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The palgwes are cool and are worth learning if you have the time. They have long deep stances as opposed to the shorter stances Ive noticed in the taegueks. Palgwe 7 and 8 are good fun.

From my understanding the shorter stances are a way that they are distinguished from karate & more reflective of the upright positions for the kicking emphasis, which TKD is known for.