kukiwon certification

[KarateMomUSA]

The main problem is that so many Grandmasters and Masters try to force their students to pay very large sums of money for the coveted KKW Dan rank. Most of these GM & M are just trying to get rich quick and do not instill discipline in their training, which leads to poorly developed black belts who succeed at scalping their students just like their instructor did to them.

While many do charge high test fees, the KKW Dan & Poom certification are very reasonable & I think has already been pointed out elsewhere here, that the prices have remained at a steady level for some time now.
So while the "get rich quick gang" can charge $1,000.00USD for a I Dan, they can still throw in the KKW certification, as it is probably less than $100 bucks!
Or if they don't want to lose the less than 10%, they can just tell any student who wishes one to pay the extra KKW fee.
But then again, maybe the members of the "gang" just don't want their students to know there is a world wide certificate from the world TKD academy, so it doesn't lead to questions about the worth of the in house or "gang" certificate.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Is your teacher GM RHEE Chong Chul? If so, he might have been one of those that took Kukkiwon certification, but never made it to the third step to integrate his curriculum. If anything, he may have harbored hostility and resentment towards the Kukkiwon and WTF, for whatever reason, which apparently got passed down to his students.

There are many Original TKD Pioneers that have had their lives ruined to an extent, some more than others, by south Korea for their involvement with Gen Choi & the ITF. So it can be something that many can understand about harboring hostility & resentment. Thankfully those dark days are long behind us & south Korea is a thriving democracy today!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

lord grant me the strength to not post in this topic........

Too late. You just did.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Im curious to know if anybody knows the percentage of tkd clubs worlwide that are kukki affiliated. I know it would be too hard to get exact figures because there are literally tkd clubs all over the place but Id love to know a rough estimate taking into account all tkd clubs worlwide, how many actually have anything to do with the kukki.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Im curious to know if anybody knows the percentage of tkd clubs worlwide that are kukki affiliated. I know it would be too hard to get exact figures because there are literally tkd clubs all over the place but Id love to know a rough estimate taking into account all tkd clubs worlwide, how many actually have anything to do with the kukki.

No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.
I remember reading a study somewhere that had the USTF, the ITF NGB having around 10,000 members & the USTU, the WTF NGB having some 20,000+ subscriptions that it sent to its registered members. Those numbers paled in comparison to an extrapolation to the independent number estimate.

(Off note & more important, how is the flooding going? Is the water receding? It looks like such a terrible mess!)

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.
I remember reading a study somewhere that had the USTF, the ITF NGB having around 10,000 members & the USTU, the WTF NGB having some 20,000+ subscriptions that it sent to its registered members. Those numbers paled in comparison to an extrapolation to the independent number estimate.

(Off note & more important, how is the flooding going? Is the water receding? It looks like such a terrible mess!)

The water is slowly receding, but that is only the beginning. With the water gone it only starts to show just how big the clean up is going to be. The grim reality of what happenend is only just beginning to kick in for many. Its quite surreal, I live only a short distance from the worst of it and yet we didnt even get our feet wet. It is more a result of infrastructure than 'heaps of rain', basically anyone near the river will have big problems and unfortunately the heart of brisbane is based around the river. Ipswich and Toowoomba (2 cities just outside brisbane) have virtually been flattened and the full extent of the damage out there may still not be known. All of australia will join together and fix this, just as we did with the bushfires in victoria a few years ago. even the English cricket team who are touring here at the moment are doing what they can to help.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.
I remember reading a study somewhere that had the USTF, the ITF NGB having around 10,000 members & the USTU, the WTF NGB having some 20,000+ subscriptions that it sent to its registered members. Those numbers paled in comparison to an extrapolation to the independent number estimate.

(Off note & more important, how is the flooding going? Is the water receding? It looks like such a terrible mess!)

Back on topic. Its funny that to a lot of people who arent in the kukkiwon they dont even know it exists. Ive trained with 5th dans who have trained in tkd for 30 years and yet they had literally never heard of the kukkiwon until I mentioned it. An instructor I know (6th dan) recently went to korea (for non tkd reasons) and I asked if he visited the kukkiwon during his visit, his response was "what's a kukkiwon?".

 

[puunui]

Back on topic. Its funny that to a lot of people who arent in the kukkiwon they dont even know it exists. Ive trained with 5th dans who have trained in tkd for 30 years and yet they had literally never heard of the kukkiwon until I mentioned it. An instructor I know (6th dan) recently went to korea (for non tkd reasons) and I asked if he visited the kukkiwon during his visit, his response was "what's a kukkiwon?".

Sounds like the people you hang out with need to get out more often. Perhaps living in a bubble or a cult like atmosphere is exactly what their instructors wanted, so they wouldn't have to explain what the Kukkiwon was and/or give their students Kukkiwon certification. You say your nameless instructor has about 4000 active students, so I would think that perhaps he has given out 1000 1st dan in his lifetime. At $70 per, that's US$70,000 that your instructor pocketed over the years by issuing his own dojang certification instead of promoting through the Kukkiwon, more if you include higher dan ranks.

 

[puunui]

There are many Original TKD Pioneers that have had their lives ruined to an extent, some more than others, by south Korea for their involvement with Gen Choi & the ITF.

How were the original Taekwondo pioneers' lives ruined? Wait, on second thought, don't answer. If I have to read the phrase "nasty korean politics" from you one more time, I might end up killing myself.

And by the way, according to General Choi, the original Taekwondo pioneers, seem to have been the Okinawan practitioners who created the Okinawan kata.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Sounds like the people you hang out with need to get out more often. Perhaps living in a bubble or a cult like atmosphere is exactly what their instructors wanted, so they wouldn't have to explain what the Kukkiwon was and/or give their students Kukkiwon certification. You say your nameless instructor has about 4000 active students, so I would think that perhaps he has given out 1000 1st dan in his lifetime. At $70 per, that's US$70,000 that your instructor pocketed over the years by issuing his own dojang certification instead of promoting through the Kukkiwon, more if you include higher dan ranks.

Honestly, until I started coming to this forum I had no idea what the kukkiwon was. I dont see it as 'living in a cult like atmosphere', I see it as a lot of people join a martial arts club to train, they dont care about all the governing bodies and such. These people have normal lives and jobs and families and after work a few nights a week they go and participatein a tkd class to get fit and learn some self defence. They really couldnt care less about a governing body, particularly a governing body that plays no part in their club. Its just like I dont do BJJ (for instance), so I really dont know or care about the politics or governing bodies in that art because it doesnt affect me. I have asked instructors at my club about the kukkiwon and the ones who know what it is are more than happy to discuss it and certainly dont sit there slagging it off, its just that we arent kukki, we dont use the kukki forms, we dont spar like kukki clubs and so forth so our students have no need for having a kukki cert. My old instructor told me if I wanted a kukki cert for my first dan he could get one for me but I really didnt see the point. Its not that they have anything against the kukki, its just not the 'style' they teach, it would be like an ITF guy being offered a kukki cert, there just wouldnt be any point. Its only the people like me who have too much time on my hands and sit on tkd forums who find out what a kukkiwon even is. You have to remember that in my local area the 3 biggest clubs (probably totalling in excess of 12000 students combined) are all not kukki clubs, the kukki clubs in my area would not even total 1000 students if they were all combined, so kukki certs are not that big a deal. Its not that they are being 'secretive' about the kukki, its just that the kukki iseems a small org in our area compared to the local clubs.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

How were the original Taekwondo pioneers' lives ruined? Wait, on second thought, don't answer. If I have to read the phrase "nasty korean politics" from you one more time, I might end up killing myself.
And by the way, according to General Choi, the original Taekwondo pioneers, seem to have been the Okinawan practitioners who created the Okinawan kata.

Well sir I do see that it appears that you are apparently becoming less interested or capable of entering or continuing a dialogue. But yes there are numerous original TKD Pioneers that have been coming forward with details of what they were subjected to by the KCIA. You see the use of the KCIA around the world in the west was not limited to just TKD men. The KCIA was known as a brutal national agency that had a strong international part that operated fairly easy in the west, as south Korea was aligned with the west & as a result had Embassies & Consulates throughout the world where Korean Ex-Pats, including lived. Speak to members of your own national agency, the FBI & the section that works that end. They will confirm how bad it was. It is easy to research. The KCIA was eventually renamed the NIS, National Intelligence Service to get away from the connection to their terrinle reputation, especially during the days of the brutal military dictatorships.

 

[puunui]

No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.

Not in my neighborhood. Here, the overwhelming majority are Kukkiwon certified and do the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae of the Kukkiwon. We also consistently produce junior and senior national medalists as well as team members, since the 70's. We have also won our share of medals at WTF International Events, as well as two Olympic coaches. Goes to show what you can do, if you put your mind to it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Not in my neighborhood. Here, the overwhelming majority are Kukkiwon certified and do the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae of the Kukkiwon. We also consistently produce junior and senior national medalists as well as team members, since the 70's. We have also won our share of medals at WTF International Events, as well as two Olympic coaches. Goes to show what you can do, if you put your mind to it.

Just curious, what are the yudanja poomsae? Ive seen taegeks but I havent heard of the yudanja ones. Id be interested to know what the breakdown of tkd clubs in Australia are. 'Sport' tkd has become quite popular and the AIS provides funding and training to our tkd athletes. When lauren burns won gold at the sydney olympics it was all the rage and I do know of quite a few sport clubs. It seems, however, that the big clubs that everyone knows about are independent clubs, but there are a lot of little clubs (50 students or less) that display the WTF logo. In saying that, I can only comment on my local area, but I know the big independent clubs have classes all over the country (or at least the east coast). Do you guys know of any successful Australian tkdists? I assume we have some, ryan carnelli (?) seems to ring a bell.

 

[andyjeffries]

Just curious, what are the yudanja poomsae? Ive seen taegeks but I havent heard of the yudanja ones.

The normal Kukkiwon black belt series (Yudanja means black belt holder) - Koryo, Keumgang, Taebaek, etc...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The normal Kukkiwon black belt series (Yudanja means black belt holder) - Koryo, Keumgang, Taebaek, etc...

Oh, they are the same ones we do. I hadnt heard them referred to as that before. I am currently doing keum gang in preparation for 2nd dan, would that be the same form Id be doing in a kukki school?

 

[andyjeffries]

Oh, they are the same ones we do. I hadnt heard them referred to as that before. I am currently doing keum gang in preparation for 2nd dan, would that be the same form Id be doing in a kukki school?

Hard to tell without seeing your version, but if I had to bet money I'd say yes.

This is the version of Keumgang from the most recent Kukkiwon 6 DVD set.

Good luck for your upcoming 2nd Dan!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not in my neighborhood. Here, the overwhelming majority are Kukkiwon certified and do the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae of the Kukkiwon. We also consistently produce junior and senior national medalists as well as team members, since the 70's. We have also won our share of medals at WTF International Events, as well as two Olympic coaches. Goes to show what you can do, if you put your mind to it.

Probably depends on location. Around my county, Kukki schools are the hightest in number, followed fairly closely by independents. There is only one ITF school that I can think of off the top of my head and no ATA schools. I don't think there are even any ITA schools in the state and definitely none in my area. I think that a lot has to do with who established themselves in an area early on. Jhoon Rhee is a pretty big deal in Montgomery County, Frederick County, and in Northern Virginia. But he's been cultivating schools in the region for like forty years.

I could probably come up with no fewer than ten KKW schools and probably six or seven other indepenents besides Jhoon Rhee off the top of my head.

Daniel

 

[bluewaveschool]

2 ATA, 1 ATA breakaway doing the current formset, 1 ITA breakaway and me. No WTF or ITF in town.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

2 ATA, 1 ATA breakaway doing the current formset, 1 ITA breakaway and me. No WTF or ITF in town.

Aren't you an ATA breakaway as well? Maybe not, but that was the impression that I got from previous posts.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.

There probably really is no way to tell which governing body is bigger, but if I had to guess I'd agree that it's probably the independents. There are many schools where the instructor is either certified by the ITF or the KKW but the students are not. There are many schools that aren't certified by either body.

One of the problems with coming up with even an estimate of who has more is the propensity many people have of extrapolating anecdotal evidence into a worldwide generalization. Not a lot of ITF schools here in the U.S., for instance, but go to Poland, the Czech Republic, or Argentina and they're quite common (and produce top notch competitors, too). But do those countries mean that the ITF is bigger than KKW or even independents? And just because I grew up in an area where there were very few KKW school doesn't mean anything when it comes to determining who popular they are on a country or even world wide level.

I remember reading a study somewhere that had the USTF, the ITF NGB having around 10,000 members & the USTU, the WTF NGB having some 20,000+ subscriptions that it sent to its registered members. Those numbers paled in comparison to an extrapolation to the independent number estimate.

I'd be interested in seeing that study. One of the things that limits it, of course, is that it relies on numbers of enrolled members in the respective NGB's. While this is good to give a ball park figure I wouldn't make too much of it. IIRC, there was nothing mandating membership in the USTU for KKW certified people. Additionally, you don't mention the KATU membership which was a second ITF body. There were always some people in the U.S. (and otehr places, I'm sure) that were members of the ITF but not of the USTF (or of KATU).

Additionally, both the ITF and the KKW only certify black belts. The best one could hope for would be an accurate count of yudanja (and given the stateof the ITF that's not going to happen for them). But if you want accurate numbers shouldn't you include color belts? And if so, do you include 10th gups even if they've only been training one night?

Lots of problems trying to just get a head count.

Pax,

Chris