kukiwon certification

[Dirty Dog]

So you know 3 sets of patterns?
Why do you say the Chang Hon Tuls are the hardest to learn?

I don't know them all well enough to perform at a poomse competition, but I'm working on it.
I would say the Chang Hon forms are hardest to learn for several reasons. Start with the fact that there are more of them (24, vs 8 Palgwe or Taegeuk, plus the 9 BB forms) and then consider their length; up to 68 steps, vs the 20-30 in the Palgwe and Taegeuk poomse. And I personally have always found the combinations to be more difficult to execute properly, especially some of the slow, balance moves seen in the Chang Hon tul.

I think that the Chang Hon forms are more "complete" in that there are a wider range of techniques used than in either of the other sets. The Palgwe forms, for example, don't include something as basic to TKD as a roundhouse kick.

 

[andyjeffries]

We actually refer to our black belts as "cho dan bo" and 1st dans as 'cho dan', I looked up the meaning one time of cho dan bo and it meant something like 'the grade below 1st degree black belt' which had me confused as they were wearing a black belts but referred to as a cho dan bo. I asked about this and was told that our black belts are basically a probationary black belt and then after 1 years further training they get their first dan.

That fits with what I read in the Kukkiwon Textbook, but as I said it's one reference on a single page to Cho Dan Bo and is never mentioned anywhere else official from the Kukkiwon I could find (websites, other books, etc).

The palgwes are cool and are worth learning if you have the time. They have long deep stances as opposed to the shorter stances Ive noticed in the taegueks. Palgwe 7 and 8 are good fun.

If I did them, I'd likely use the more Kukkiwon-standard stances - the reason is that I'm still concentrating on adjusting my stances to be Kukkiwon-standard so I don't want to have to try to remember two different ways.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That fits with what I read in the Kukkiwon Textbook, but as I said it's one reference on a single page to Cho Dan Bo and is never mentioned anywhere else official from the Kukkiwon I could find (websites, other books, etc).



If I did them, I'd likely use the more Kukkiwon-standard stances - the reason is that I'm still concentrating on adjusting my stances to be Kukkiwon-standard so I don't want to have to try to remember two different ways.

are they different stances or different ways of doing the same stance? The shorter stances Ive seen in taegeks (and I really have seen very little of them) appear to look like a 'short front stance' as seen in palgwe 8 for instance. Is a 'new' kukkiwon front stance (for instance) different to the 'old' front stance the way they used to do it or do the new forms just have more 'short front stances' and less long front stances?

 

[andyjeffries]

are they different stances or different ways of doing the same stance? The shorter stances Ive seen in taegeks (and I really have seen very little of them) appear to look like a 'short front stance' as seen in palgwe 8 for instance. Is a 'new' kukkiwon front stance (for instance) different to the 'old' front stance the way they used to do it or do the new forms just have more 'short front stances' and less long front stances?

Errr, the stances known as ap seogi and ap kubi seogi are done correctly much narrower (ap seogi has the insides of the heels on the same line, ap kubi seogi has one fist width between the heels width-wise) than we were originally taught. So while there aren't new stances, the way they are done is different.

Having just watched Palgwae 8 performed by GM Lee Chong Kwan, he seems to do them with modern ap kubi seogi.

Having watched a senior one the whole way through - they look very weird to me. Some very strange movements such as the over the shoulder punches and rising elbows (when the hands are in knifehand). Maybe unusual is a better word than weird...

 

[dancingalone]

This is true of the dojang where I train. Everybody learns the Palgwe poomse, though any who are interested can also learn the Taegeuks. I would agree that the Taegeuk are the easiest to learn, with Palgwe being more difficult, and Chang Hon being harder still. I've never tried to learn the Song Am or Pyung Ahn so I have no idea where they fit.

The Songahm patterns are more challenging physically than Chang Hon or Palgwe. They are longer and they have many more kicks, including jumping ones, having been intentionally designed for such.

 

[dancingalone]

Having watched a senior one the whole way through - they look very weird to me. Some very strange movements such as the over the shoulder punches and rising elbows (when the hands are in knifehand). Maybe unusual is a better word than weird...

In karate, the over-the-shoulder punch isn't a punch at all except at the beginner 'teach the pattern' level. It's generally interpreted as a throw.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't know them all well enough to perform at a poomse competition, but I'm working on it.
I would say the Chang Hon forms are hardest to learn for several reasons. Start with the fact that there are more of them (24, vs 8 Palgwe or Taegeuk, plus the 9 BB forms) and then consider their length; up to 68 steps, vs the 20-30 in the Palgwe and Taegeuk poomse. And I personally have always found the combinations to be more difficult to execute properly, especially some of the slow, balance moves seen in the Chang Hon tul.

I think that the Chang Hon forms are more "complete" in that there are a wider range of techniques used than in either of the other sets. The Palgwe forms, for example, don't include something as basic to TKD as a roundhouse kick.

Thank you & there is 1 of the last patterns to be added that actually has 72 steps or counts. It is 5th Dan Tul named So San, named after a famous Korean warrior monk who was actually 72 years young when he rallied people to fight & repel a Japanese invasion.

 

[dancingalone]

Thank you & there is 1 of the last patterns to be added that actually has 72 steps or counts. It is 5th Dan Tul named So San, named after a famous Korean warrior monk who was actually 72 years young when he rallied people to fight & repel a Japanese invasion.

Not trying to play oneupsmanship, but if anyone is interested, the Songahm form for 1st black "decided" called "Shim Jun" has 81 steps to it. The high dan hyung are considerably longer and are at least as difficult physically if not more so as Moon Moo in Chang Hon.

I would rate the colored belt TKD forms sets in this order from toughest to easiest from an athletic standpoint.

1. Songahm
2. Pyung Ahn Chodan - Ohdan
2. Chang Hon
4. Palgwe
5. Tae Geuk

 

[puunui]

According to a 7th dan at our club, our GM had a close relationship (could have been his instructor) with the guy who invented some palgwes. Was there more than one person invoved in the invention of the palgwes?

What is the name of the gentleman who your instructor knew who created some of the Palgwae poomsae?

 

[puunui]

Very cool. The Palgwae poomsae are shown on the Kukki-Taekwondo 2 DVD set* from (I believe) the 90s. I must have a bit more of a look in them, they do seem quite cool.* The DVDs look like this

There is an issue with the way GM LEE Chong Kwan does the Palgwae poomsae. Specifically in Palgwae 1 Jang, the second movement shown is an in out middle block, while others do that particular movement as an out in middle block.

 

[puunui]

Thats interesting, Ive heard a few instructors say that they felt by introducing the taegueks they were 'dumbing things down' because they were easier than the palgwes.

I wonder how easier the Taeguek poomsae are, because seems like a lot of practitioners have difficulty adapting to the shorter walking stance. Outside of that, any ease between the Taeguek and Palgwae poomsae is small. To me, they are both relatively easy form sets, and in fact have many of the same movements.

 

[d1jinx]

I want to say 1995. Or earlier.

I started TKD in Jan 87. I learned Taegueks. They were calling them the "new" forms and most were learning them also (higher ranks + fellow instructors + school Owners).

Funny, cause alot of people learned the other forms first then converted over... I learned these first, then during my Travels when i left for the military, I Learned some of the others ( ITF, ATA)... yet I never learned the Palgwe.

 

[puunui]

Yes & don't you need a license from the KKW? Aren't the black belt certificates needed also issued by the KKW at tests given at the KKW by regions on a regular basis?bThat is what I meant, as doesn't the KTA follow the KKW?

The KTA governs Taekwondo in South Korea. It really is that simple.

 

[d1jinx]

I wonder how easier the Taeguek poomsae are, because seems like a lot of practitioners have difficulty adapting to the shorter walking stance. Outside of that, any ease between the Taeguek and Palgwae poomsae is small. To me, they are both relatively easy form sets, and in fact have many of the same movements.

Not sure if true or opinion, but 1 Korean Master I used to know used to Laugh and not teach Taegueks... cause he said they were "children forms" "designed for school children".

I heard a few other Koreans say the same thing, but I really dont know if it's true or the original Intent of the Taeguek forms.... Or just a big-ole-glass-o-hater-aide...

 

[puunui]

I think that the Chang Hon forms are more "complete" in that there are a wider range of techniques used than in either of the other sets. The Palgwe forms, for example, don't include something as basic to TKD as a roundhouse kick.

The Kukkiwon poomsae weren't designed or intended to present a balance between hand and leg techniques. Neither are the Okinawan kata upon which the Kukkiwon poomsae were based. Instead, what the pioneers decided was to emphasize kicking during kyorugi, and emphasize hand movements in poomsae. This is similar to the umyang symbol, where there each side has a large portion and a smaller tail circling each other. In sparring, the large portion is kicking, with a smaller amount of arm. In poomsae, it is the opposite, the large portion is arm movement, with a smaller amount of kick. This is the balance of leg and hand techniques in Kukki Taekwondo.

 

[puunui]

Not sure if true or opinion, but 1 Korean Master I used to know used to Laugh and not teach Taegueks... cause he said they were "children forms" "designed for school children".

Children forms or forms for older practitioners. The walking stance is more natural, and perhaps easier. Children seem to take to the walking stance quite naturally and easily. For older practitioners, those long deep wide stances from Japanese karate get harder to do and can actually cause knee and ankle pain. So in my opinion, it isn't a slam to call the Taeguek poomsae "children's forms" since the vast majority of practicing taekwondoin in today's world are children.

I heard a few other Koreans say the same thing, but I really dont know if it's true or the original Intent of the Taeguek forms.... Or just a big-ole-glass-o-hater-aide...

The original intent was to include the Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan so that all of the major kwans could say they participated and contributed to the creation of the Kukkiwon poomsae. It makes it easier to cooperate and unify when everyone had a hand in the unification effort. Also, the intent was to move away from the long wide unnatural stances and go back to the original narrow relaxed natural stances of Okinawan karate, which from the pioneer's perspective, were time tested and made sense from a longevity standpoint.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What is the name of the gentleman who your instructor knew who created some of the Palgwae poomsae?

We start back at tkd tonight after the christmas break. As soon as I see the 7th dan who told me about this I will ask him the name of the guy. When he originally told me I didnt take much notice of the name as he was telling me the history behind our GM coming to australia and what he did before coming out here. These days I only see our GM very rarely as he only attends white belt gradings and all the dan gradings, Im not grading for another year and find it hard to get to bb gradings because my son plays saturady morning sport at the same time, in fact Ive probably only seen our GM once in the last 12 months (he has virtually retired, but still does one on one training with our instructors). Our chief instructor, 2 years off 8th dan, pretty much runs the club now along with a dozen or so 6th and 7th dans.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Yes & don't you need a license from the KKW? Aren't the black belt certificates needed also issued by the KKW at tests given at the KKW by regions on a regular basis?bThat is what I meant, as doesn't the KTA follow the KKW?

The KTA governs Taekwondo in South Korea. It really is that simple.

Yes I am well aware that the KTA governs TKD in south Korea. I think you are being a bit picking with the semantics. My point was that in order to open a TKD dojang there, you need an instructors license issued by the KKW, correct? Not the KTA right? And also one must be a KKW balck belt as well. I also think that the KKW, which is the world TKD academy sets the syllabus for Kukki TKD.
Please correct me if I am wrong with any of those points.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Not trying to play oneupsmanship, but if anyone is interested, the Songahm form for 1st black "decided" called "Shim Jun" has 81 steps to it. The high dan hyung are considerably longer and are at least as difficult physically if not more so as Moon Moo in Chang Hon.

Yes Moon Mu Tul is a beautiful & difficult pattern. It is taught at the 4th Dan level. Now when GM Park Jung Tae left the ITF in 1990, he formed the GTF. He had been the chair of the ITF instruction committee for years. He also was instrumental in devising TK-D's newest pattern in the early 1980s, which is also a difficult & very beautiful pattern with many high slow kicks, flying kicks & combo kicking.
GM Park also created a 96 move pattern for the GTF, which is nice & also very difficult. That is not an ITF one though. Not sure if more is better.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Children forms or forms for older practitioners. The walking stance is more natural, and perhaps easier. Children seem to take to the walking stance quite naturally and easily. For older practitioners, those long deep wide stances from Japanese karate get harder to do and can actually cause knee and ankle pain. So in my opinion, it isn't a slam to call the Taeguek poomsae "children's forms" since the vast majority of practicing taekwondoin in today's world are children.
The original intent was to include the Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan so that all of the major kwans could say they participated and contributed to the creation of the Kukkiwon poomsae. It makes it easier to cooperate and unify when everyone had a hand in the unification effort. Also, the intent was to move away from the long wide unnatural stances and go back to the original narrow relaxed natural stances of Okinawan karate, which from the pioneer's perspective, were time tested and made sense from a longevity standpoint.

That is my understanding of the original intent as well for creating the Taeguek Poomsae. I would add that in the early 1970s, when they were created, there was not yet a mass infusion of too many children in TKD.