kukiwon certification

[dancingalone]

Also, the intent was to move away from the long wide unnatural stances and go back to the original narrow relaxed natural stances of Okinawan karate, which from the pioneer's perspective, were time tested and made sense from a longevity standpoint.

To be fair, the reason why Okinawan karate uses high stances is because the forms are meant to be fighting drills, at least in the lineages that teach bunkai formally or the bunkai ideas in an abstract fashion. I don't get the same feeling from the KKW forms, although by all means correct me if I am wrong. Instead if forms are simply meant to be a means of training the body, then it might be a good thing to adopt low stances to strengthen the legs as is done in many southern Chinese styles.

Okinawan styles also spend a lot of time with hojo undo physical conditioning, so the need for forms to play a role in physical exercise and strengthening isn't there.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Kukkiwon poomsae weren't designed or intended to present a balance between hand and leg techniques. Neither are the Okinawan kata upon which the Kukkiwon poomsae were based. Instead, what the pioneers decided was to emphasize kicking during kyorugi, and emphasize hand movements in poomsae. This is similar to the umyang symbol, where there each side has a large portion and a smaller tail circling each other. In sparring, the large portion is kicking, with a smaller amount of arm. In poomsae, it is the opposite, the large portion is arm movement, with a smaller amount of kick. This is the balance of leg and hand techniques in Kukki Taekwondo.

Something that I've always 'known' but never looked at in that manner. Thanks!

Daniel

 

[puunui]

To be fair, the reason why Okinawan karate uses high stances is because the forms are meant to be fighting drills, at least in the lineages that teach bunkai formally or the bunkai ideas in an abstract fashion. I don't get the same feeling from the KKW forms, although by all means correct me if I am wrong. Instead if forms are simply meant to be a means of training the body, then it might be a good thing to adopt low stances to strengthen the legs as is done in many southern Chinese styles.

Taekwondo has kicking to keep one's legs strong. We don't need to adopt low stances for that.

 

[dancingalone]

Taekwondo has kicking to keep one's legs strong. We don't need to adopt low stances for that.

What is the purpose of forms practice in KKW taekwondo?

 

[puunui]

What is the purpose of forms practice in KKW taekwondo?

Depends on the practitioner, their stage in the journey and their interests.

 

[dancingalone]

Depends on the practitioner, their stage in the journey and their interests.

There is not a general understanding that would be appropriate as a universal answer? For example, in Okinawan karate, it's accurate to say kata training in tandem with partner exercises is supposed to transmit the fighting techniques of the style.

 

[puunui]

There is not a general understanding that would be appropriate as a universal answer?

I am sure there is an answer in the Kukkiwon Textbook, but as a practical matter, I don't think so. Personally, I practice the poomsae for health -- Hwal In Taekwondo -- Taekwondo for Long Life. Others have their own reasons, including but not limited to rank promotion requirements, competition, self defense, etc.

 

[d1jinx]

There is not a general understanding that would be appropriate as a universal answer? For example, in Okinawan karate, it's accurate to say kata training in tandem with partner exercises is supposed to transmit the fighting techniques of the style.

Per the KKW text,
"Poomsae is the style of conduct which expresses directly or indirectly mental and physical refinements as well as the principles of offense and defense resulting from cultivation of Taekwondo spirit and techniques"

hows that for an answer...

It goes on to say (summerized) that its used to practice the application of Offense and defensive techniques without the presense of the instructor to enhance Kyorugi techniques..

mind and body! and its great for a work out! good sweat after doing whole set

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What is the name of the gentleman who your instructor knew who created some of the Palgwae poomsae?

OK, I went to class last night and the 7th dan wasnt there but I spoke to a 4th dan and he was a bit more vague in his detail (I will ask the 7th dan when I next see him). The 4th dan, however, said that our GM's instructor was named (and I'll spell it phoenetically) Ejong or Eejon. Does this name ring a bell? Doing a timeline Im imagining this guy must have been training our GM in about 1961 or earlier.

 

[puunui]

OK, I went to class last night and the 7th dan wasnt there but I spoke to a 4th dan and he was a bit more vague in his detail (I will ask the 7th dan when I next see him). The 4th dan, however, said that our GM's instructor was named (and I'll spell it phoenetically) Ejong or Eejon. Does this name ring a bell? Doing a timeline Im imagining this guy must have been training our GM in about 1961 or earlier.

He might be talking about GM LEE Chong Woo. What kwan is your grandmaster from?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

He might be talking about GM LEE Chong Woo. What kwan is your grandmaster from?

I will see if I can find out, he had a military background (teaching self defence to the american soldiers in korea from what I can understand). Its a shame he has virtually retired because it would have been good to ask him in person but as I said earlier I see him very rarely these days.

 

[rmclain]

There is an issue with the way GM LEE Chong Kwan does the Palgwae poomsae. Specifically in Palgwae 1 Jang, the second movement shown is an in out middle block, while others do that particular movement as an out in middle block.

That's the way Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo teaches that part in Palgue Il Jang - inside to outside centerblock. I don't know if this adds to this discussion. Thought I would add it as a piece of information. He's the only person I've seen doing it this way until you mentioned it on this post.

R. McLain

 

[rmclain]

The Palgwae poomsae and Yudanja poomsae were finished in 1968. The Taeguek poomsae and Koryo 2 was completed in 1972. If you are going to parrot me, at least do so accurately.

I'm curious why the KTA would hold their first official clinic on the Palgue forms in 1972 if they had finished the Taeguek forms? Did they finish them in 1968 after the first clinic on the Palgue forms?

At this first clinic in 1972 (I don't know how many actually were held), they didn't have enough time to teach all the Palgue forms and handed out pamphlets in Korean for participants to take home. Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo was in attendance and still has his pamphlet.

R. McLain

 

[puunui]

That's the way Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo teaches that part in Palgue Il Jang - inside to outside centerblock. I don't know if this adds to this discussion. Thought I would add it as a piece of information. He's the only person I've seen doing it this way until you mentioned it on this post.

It might be a Chang Moo Kwan thing, I don't know. GM LEE Chong Kwan is a Chang Moo Kwan member. But GM LEE Won Kuk lists the move as an makki, which is an out in middle block.

 

[puunui]

I'm curious why the KTA would hold their first official clinic on the Palgue forms in 1972 if they had finished the Taeguek forms? Did they finish them in 1968 after the first clinic on the Palgue forms?

I think the Palgwae poomsae were first taught in 1968, not 1972. It was at the same time that Koryo 1 was taught, which is still practiced by a lot of people. The Taeguek poomsae and Koryo 2 (which is what most people practice) came out at the same time as the Taeguek poomsae, which was in 1972. Try asking him if he learned Koryo 1 or 2 during that Palgwae seminar.

 

[rmclain]

I think the Palgwae poomsae were first taught in 1968, not 1972. It was at the same time that Koryo 1 was taught, which is still practiced by a lot of people. The Taeguek poomsae and Koryo 2 (which is what most people practice) came out at the same time as the Taeguek poomsae, which was in 1972. Try asking him if he learned Koryo 1 or 2 during that Palgwae seminar.

They only instructed the palgue forms at the 1972 clinic he attended. They ran out of time to teach them all to their group and handed out pamphlets that taught the palgue forms. He translated these into English and published the first of his Palgue books in 1973 based upon these. He said there was no second koryo at this time. This first palgue clinic was limited to certain invited masters. He immigrated to the US in Jan 1968, a few weeks after attending the KTA first clinic on the yudanja forms (koryo #1 was introduced there). He was invited to attend the inaugural group to learn the palgue form in 1972, which was his first trip back to Korea following leaving in 1968. He had friend and teachers involved with the KTA and there was no mention of Palgue before 1972.

 

[Archtkd]

That's the way Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo teaches that part in Palgue Il Jang - inside to outside centerblock. I don't know if this adds to this discussion. Thought I would add it as a piece of information. He's the only person I've seen doing it this way until you mentioned it on this post.

R. McLain

I have a book: Tae Kwon Do Forms -- Complete & Official Forms of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation, published in Seoul in 1988, and distributed by the International Coucncil on Martial Arts Education, which states poom No. 6 and 7 in Palgwe Il Jang are "inside-outisde body blocks (Momtong Yeop Makki). Members of the ICMAEC listed in the book are Dae Shik KIm, Kyung Sun Shin, Tae Hong Choi, Bong Yul Shin, Kiel Soon Park, Suk Ki Shin, Lee H. Park, Kwang Sung Kim and Ri Kon Ko. The 2003 Official WTF Dartfish Video/DVD shows those blocks as inside-outside. The model in the video is Lee Kyu-Hyun, former chairman of the Kukkiwon's Education Committee.

 

[puunui]

I have a book: Tae Kwon Do Forms -- Complete & Official Forms of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation, published in Seoul in 1988, and distributed by the International Coucncil on Martial Arts Education, which states poom No. 6 and 7 in Palgwe Il Jang are "inside-outisde body blocks (Momtong Yeop Makki). Members of the ICMAEC listed in the book are Dae Shik KIm, Kyung Sun Shin, Tae Hong Choi, Bong Yul Shin, Kiel Soon Park, Suk Ki Shin, Lee H. Park, Kwang Sung Kim and Ri Kon Ko. The 2003 Official WTF Dartfish Video/DVD shows those blocks as inside-outside. The model in the video is Lee Kyu-Hyun, former chairman of the Kukkiwon's Education Committee.

I just got a book "Tae Kwon Do Korean Martial Art" by Sang Oh Moon, published in 1976. He shows Master Moon doing the Palgwae 1 Jang using an out to in middle block. So there are differences out there.

 

[Archtkd]

I just got a book "Tae Kwon Do Korean Martial Art" by Sang Oh Moon, published in 1976. He shows Master Moon doing the Palgwae 1 Jang using an out to in middle block. So there are differences out there.

I wonder why or how that difference arose.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I wonder why or how that difference arose.

I guess it is hard to transmit info about physical movements exactly. But now that the KKW is holding more instructor courses & make it mandatory for certain levels if they wish to have their student's black belt applications processed, this will help. It is also going to be a big help when more start to see the winners at the WTF world championships, as that will also help standardization, which is very hard to obtain.