kukiwon certification

[puunui]

Probably depends on location.

In my location, back in the 70's when Taekwondo really started taking off, there were many more Kukkiwon certified instructors than not. There was one ITF instructor, but he ended up getting murdered. He was then replaced by another ITF instructor, who built up the program to the point where he became our state president because he had the most students. In the 80's, most of the instructors retired or moved away, including the ITF instructor, and taekwondo fell off. In the 90's, the ITF instructor returned and once again became our state president and I served as his secretary general. Around this time, GM Dae Sung LEE moved back to Hawaii after teaching at OTC for six years. We invited everyone to our meetings, whether tang soo do, ITF, everyone, offered them Kukkiwon certification, as well as training in modern training methods, for free. There were some hard feelings between certain individuals, but that worked itself out over time. Now the overwhelming majority from that period are Kukkiwon certified and practicing the Taeguek poomsae. So the pioneer's methodology worked, at least here.

Now there are people moving from other places and bringing their unique perspective into the mix. One guy, an ITF offshoot practitioner, calls his school "Traditional Taekwon-Do". His school is right down the road from my house. They wear cross over uniforms and practice non-contact sparring with face punching allowed and also do the Chang Hon forms. He showed up to our state championships recently and his comment was "How come the coaches aren't wearing uniforms?"

I think the probability of bringing him into the fold is extremely low.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I just came back from Hawaii on New Years Eve. I spent about two weeks in Kona and stayed in Kailua Kona, about ten minutes from Keahole airport. Gotta say, the island was probably the most beautiful place I have ever seen!

Anyway, I travelled about the island while I was there and was disappointed that I did not see a single KMA dojang. I only saw two dojos period, one of which was in a barn and the other of which was renting space atop an old theatre. Both were in fairly isolated places, and both were kenpo. I was unable to visit either.

Loved the island and I was in coffee heaven!

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Kona side is more mainland transplants who do their own thing. Not much Taekwondo on that side, although I want to say there was one ITF style school there. There was a Korean born master who taught for many years in Hilo, but he retired a while back. His brother was a red belt under GM LEE Won Kuk and he studied at the Chung Do Kwan under GM Uhm and GM Park during the 60's. He used to tell me all kinds of stories about that era and also the early struggles of the sabum in Hawaii during the very early 70's, when he first moved here. During one visit, he pulled out GM LEE Won Kuk's book and when he saw how interested I was in it, he told me to keep it, just like that, without me asking.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Unfortunately, I didn't go into Hilo except to get gasoline. We had visited a rainforest not far away and had another engagement that prevented me from exploring beyond fuel. Next time I go back I'd like to visit Hilo.

I did go into Waimea and found a Korean restaurant, so I was able to have my weekly bulgogi and kimchi.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Unfortunately, I didn't go into Hilo except to get gasoline. We had visited a rainforest not far away and had another engagement that prevented me from exploring beyond fuel. Next time I go back I'd like to visit Hilo.

The instructor who gave me GM Lee's book retired, but I think his son still teaches somewhere. Hilo is more of a MMA town now because BJ Penn has a gym there. There is also a Taekwondo and Hapkido school, but I don't know who they are. But I think Hilo has more martial arts than Kona. There are other martial arts as well, Aikido and others if you are interested in that.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Hard to tell without seeing your version, but if I had to bet money I'd say yes.

This is the version of Keumgang from the most recent Kukkiwon 6 DVD set.

Good luck for your upcoming 2nd Dan!

Thanks for the link. That looks very similar to the way we do it. We wait 2 years between first and second dan (is that the same as kukki tkd?), so I still have about a year or so of training before my 2nd dan test.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

There probably really is no way to tell which governing body is bigger, but if I had to guess I'd agree that it's probably the independents. There are many schools where the instructor is either certified by the ITF or the KKW but the students are not. There are many schools that aren't certified by either body.

Yes & another way to do it is to look at the world championships, with the WTF always at least after their 1st few, have yielded more players from more countries. Another problem is identifying independents, ITFers & WTFers. For me to be an ITF school, you have to be registered, using correct dobok, up to date in technical proficiency & issued ITF certificates. That is a high burden or many things to meet. How do you do it for the WTF? I guess it is where doboks & have KKW certificates. But that is a lower threshold than the ITF. Some incorrectly call some indies ITF because they do the Chon Ji form set, even if they do them karate like wearing Gis.

One of the things that limits it, of course, is that it relies on numbers of enrolled members in the respective NGB's. While this is good to give a ball park figure I wouldn't make too much of it. IIRC, there was nothing mandating membership in the USTU for KKW certified people. Additionally, you don't mention the KATU membership which was a second ITF body. There were always some people in the U.S. (and otehr places, I'm sure) that were members of the ITF but not of the USTF (or of KATU).
Additionally, both the ITF and the KKW only certify black belts. The best one could hope for would be an accurate count of yudanja (and given the stateof the ITF that's not going to happen for them). But if you want accurate numbers shouldn't you include color belts? And if so, do you include 10th gups even if they've only been training one night?
Lots of problems trying to just get a head count.

These are all good reasons why comparing numbers is problematic. But what else do we have? It is difficult to say the least.

 

[puunui]

Oh, they are the same ones we do. I hadnt heard them referred to as that before. I am currently doing keum gang in preparation for 2nd dan, would that be the same form Id be doing in a kukki school?

What forms do color belts learn at your school?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What forms do color belts learn at your school?

Coloured belts do palgwes 1-8. At black belts gradings they call a palgwe form (you dont know which they will call) and you do that, plus previous form plus current form. Constant revision of the palgwe set is required so black belts can adequetely assist in teaching the palgwes to coloured belts.

 

[Miles]

Coloured belts do palgwes 1-8. At black belts gradings they call a palgwe form (you dont know which they will call) and you do that, plus previous form plus current form. Constant revision of the palgwe set is required so black belts can adequetely assist in teaching the palgwes to coloured belts.

If you are 1st dan and your required poomsae for 2nd dan is Keum-gang, did you learn Koryo? If so, was it part of your test for 1st dan? Or is in addition to Keum-gang for 2nd?

 

[puunui]

Coloured belts do palgwes 1-8. At black belts gradings they call a palgwe form (you dont know which they will call) and you do that, plus previous form plus current form. Constant revision of the palgwe set is required so black belts can adequetely assist in teaching the palgwes to coloured belts.

What about the Taeguek poomsae? If those are not done, do you know why?

 

[Miles]

There probably really is no way to tell which governing body is bigger, but if I had to guess I'd agree that it's probably the independents. There are many schools where the instructor is either certified by the ITF or the KKW but the students are not. There are many schools that aren't certified by either body.


Lots of problems trying to just get a head count.

Pax,

Chris

If I had to guess, I'd say it would be those certified by the Kukkiwon. I'd start counting the folks in S. Korea. In the home of TKD, nearly everyone has trained in TKD and they are only certified by the Kukkiwon. There may be more Taekwondoin in Korea than the rest of the world combined.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

If I had to guess, I'd say it would be those certified by the Kukkiwon. I'd start counting the folks in S. Korea. In the home of TKD, nearly everyone has trained in TKD and they are only certified by the Kukkiwon. There may be more Taekwondoin in Korea than the rest of the world combined.

Yes this is true. But also do not discount that in the northern half of Korea it is 100% ITF TKD. There is no WTF or Kukki TKD there. They have a significant TKD program, modeled after the eastern European, soviet bloc that identified early on talented TKDin, where they groom them all the way to the top.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If you are 1st dan and your required poomsae for 2nd dan is Keum-gang, did you learn Koryo? If so, was it part of your test for 1st dan? Or is in addition to Keum-gang for 2nd?

Yes we learn koryo at black belt. Our belt order is a little different to some in that we go from 3rd red belt (1st gup) to black belt (no dan, like a probationary black belt, although it is a black belt with no stripe), and then to 1st dan when we receive the first of our dan certificates and are given our dan number and a stripe on the belt. So in a round about way 1st dan is actually the second black belt along the way. We train for one year between black and 1st dan, 2years from 1st to 2nd, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd etc. From what I understand we do the same order of poomsae as kukki clubs once black belt. Koryo, then keum gang, then teabek(?) etc.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If I had to guess, I'd say it would be those certified by the Kukkiwon. I'd start counting the folks in S. Korea. In the home of TKD, nearly everyone has trained in TKD and they are only certified by the Kukkiwon. There may be more Taekwondoin in Korea than the rest of the world combined.

are there no independent tkd clubs in south korea?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What about the Taeguek poomsae? If those are not done, do you know why?

We do not do the taeguek poomsae at all, in fact the only time I have seen them is at demos in my local area by kukki clubs. I know our GM does not like them at all, he knows them but did not want to swap from the palgwes as he is a big fan of the palgwe set and didnt want to stop teaching palgwes. An instructor I know who knows the taegueks has told me he prefers to teach the palgwes because they are harder to learn and the taegeks are easier. He said the taegeks are better for kids because they are a lot easier to learn but believes the kids should do the same forms as the adults. This is obviously just heresay because I dont know the taegeks, but students who have swapped over to our club from kukki clubs (and there are many of them) have commented on how much more difficult the palgwes are to learn. Just a question, when did the kukki cease to teach the palgwe set in favour of the taegueks?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Just a question, when did the kukki cease to teach the palgwe set in favour of the taegueks?

The Palgwes were finished around the mid 1960s. In the early 1970s, that same committee, plus others from the JDK & MDK created the Taegueks, which were finished around 1972. Not sure when the official swap, if any was ever done.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

are there no independent tkd clubs in south korea?

This is not so cut & dry. I think that to have a TKD school, one needs to have a KKW License in south Korea. TKD there is oversen by the KKW. Other martial arts are overseen by different entities. This even presents a problem with ITF dojangs there. One way some of them get around it is that many of them already are licensed by the KKW & they add the ITF program. The ITF is very, very small & weak, with only a few clubs scattered around the whole country.
Of course in north Korea, ITF is 100%, with no WTF at all. In fact the DRP Korea is 1 of the few remaining listed UN countries that is not a national member of the WTF. This is absolutely the result again of the nasty Korean politics.

 

[puunui]

are there no independent tkd clubs in south korea?

no.

 

[puunui]

Just a question, when did the kukki cease to teach the palgwe set in favour of the taegueks?

I want to say 1995. Or earlier.