Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

[The Kai]

This is another example of teaching your students incorrect history to back up your claims.
The truth about Japanese history:
"The Shogun, Keiki, voluntarily surrendered his administrative powers to the youthful Emperor, Meiji, in November 1867. So ended the 2-1/2 centuries of Tokugawa rule, and on December 9, 1867, the Imperial Restoration was formally proclaimed. Thus ending of the Shogunate, and starting the Restoration of the Emperor."
So, since Mitose was born in 1916, he totally missed out on the Shogun Era, and the burning of his temple is a invalid reason for their being no Kosho Ryu descendants/practitioners in modern Japan.

Mr Bishop
Just to play devils advocate - that is only 50 yrs between the bisbanding of the the Shogan(ate) and Mitose's birth. Maybe it is possible for the Kosho - sect to survive "underground" for 2 generations?
But, it would seem there would more of them around in Japan.

Mitose a Spy? IMHO the murder happened years after the war-what would the connection be?
Gary I agree history is a tricky business (we can hardly state what happens today with clear authority). It comes down to me believing my myths and you>>>>well you get the point
Todd

 

[John Bishop]

Mr Bishop
Just to play devils advocate - that is only 50 yrs between the bisbanding of the the Shogan(ate) and Mitose's birth. Maybe it is possible for the Kosho - sect to survive "underground" for 2 generations?
Todd

I'am talking about descendants of monks who trained at the temple during the time Mitose was supposedly there training. Or was he the only monk there at the time? Maybe the last surviving monk of some type of disaster that wiped out all the other monks and any trace of their history. :bs1:


Funny thing, the Shaka In temple on Mt. Kinkai is still standing, and it has it own history of Buddhist practice. And it's history names it's sect of buddhism and the founder. Nowhere in it's history is any mention of the Mitose family, Kosho family, or Yoshida family, etc., etc.

 

[Mekugi]

The problem I have is mix-and-match history and culture within these posts. The Jesuits were influencing the Shogunate during the early 1600' and late 1500's, so yes terra were torched for political reasons. Accordingly, there were many hundreds of other temples that could fit the description Mr. Mitose gave in his testimony (and personally, to people) that underwent the rites of passage for kindling. So, the proof is going to have to be in the form of documentation, which is ironically my next topic. Handing down a martial art within a Japanese family does not mean that there were no documents or records. That is completely contradictory to the Japan that existed in the past and the one that exists now. There was a reason for keeping records and that was namely to keep those who fake a name, fake a lineage or fake a scool of martial arts out of the circle of those "in the know". Records and pedigree did (and do) just that. Now, if someone comes up with these: game over! You have your pedigree then all this bickering comes to an end. Until these things are produced, however, people are going to be treading water in place for a while and coincidences will surely remain just speculation and conjecture. It makes for good conversation, not for good history.


It is like the stories of Ponce DeLeon in Florida. Most people seem to think that this guy went in search of the fountain of youth. However, despite heavy official documentation to state otherwise, he most certainly did not. A bunch of fanciful writers came up with this story passed along word of mouth tales and then recorded this falsehood in their writings. So, people kept coming up with this as a “fact” rather than a piece of romantic fiction. Ponce went to Florida looking for riches and this is true; he went looking for wealth and slaves and there is absolutely NO indication that he went looking for a fountain or any other mythical items. It was even reported back to Spanish Royals by their official recorder that he had made attempts to find the fountain of youth; however these are simply words without meaning or background in fact to inspire royalty to send funds and keep interests. This is simply an absurd notion that has prevailed over the ages without any more than a bunch of stories to found itself in meanwhile there is absolute proof to the contrary, supporting that the fountain of youth yarn is simply a pack of lies. Now, looking at the current state of things within this thread- even if it is disproved and all are shown up one way or the other, will this stop the stories or the beliefs?

This is another example of teaching your students incorrect history to back up your claims.
The truth about Japanese history:
"The Shogun, Keiki, voluntarily surrendered his administrative powers to the youthful Emperor, Meiji, in November 1867. So ended the 2-1/2 centuries of Tokugawa rule, and on December 9, 1867, the Imperial Restoration was formally proclaimed. Thus ending of the Shogunate, and starting the Restoration of the Emperor."
So, since Mitose was born in 1916, he totally missed out on the Shogun Era, and the burning of his temple is a invalid reason for their being no Kosho Ryu descendants/practitioners in modern Japan.

 

[kelly keltner]

I'am talking about descendants of monks who trained at the temple during the time Mitose was supposedly there training. Or was he the only monk there at the time? Maybe the last surviving monk of some type of disaster that wiped out all the other monks and any trace of their history. :bs1:


Funny thing, the Shaka In temple on Mt. Kinkai is still standing, and it has it own history of Buddhist practice. And it's history names it's sect of buddhism and the founder. Nowhere in it's history is any mention of the Mitose family, Kosho family, or Yoshida family, etc., etc.

bone#2 the yoshida, Komatsu(kosho), and one other family owned the land the temple sits on.

 

[Karazenpo]

prof joe.......i really sense some bitter hostility towards the students of kosho, and i ask myself.....where does it come from. you have all this talk about titles and rankings, and i mean no disrespect when i say this, but if those titles are the result of a lying cheating conman with a story far outliving his life....why should we put any creedence into them, as you show none for us. this does not seem to be in the spirit of learning and teaching, and frankly it scares me when people feel this way and are teaching others war arts.

any kosho student i talk to studies the art for the art, not all the BS. and you will never hear me bashing anyone. too many people are living in the past, and getting caught up in it. i think its a safe bet to say that as kosho students in 2004 we are being taught something a bit more than punching, kicking, and putting the hurt into people. many martial arts teachers preach about kindness and respect and "seeing the good in man"......but get them away from the dojo and that all changes.....then human nature reveals its ugly head. As people living together in the world you would think we would practice some of what we try to instill into the students that look to us for guidance, i for one would be embarrassed to have any student of mine read some of the things that are said.

are we really that worried about rank? is it really about respect? are we so willing to throw our lessons out the window and come across as schmucks?
im not.....i want to learn and give back........ive been given a gift, that I in turn must give back. and while giving it back i will not turn to the man or men that gave it to me and slap them in the face.

respectfully,
shawn bailey

Not at all, Shawn. Please go back and read my post#94. I have good freinds in Kosho. Shawn, I'm a cop and I couldn't conceive of making an arrest, let's say for murder, and going to court and giving NO EVIDENCE but my word! I would be laughed at, sued and then fired! Think about it. All we ask is to have proof so when we state the Kosho version of history if called on it then we can back it up, that's all. I'm being very sincere when I say that. What do I say when I repeat Mitose's history and I'm called upon to give some verification other than 'I was told so'...........

 

[Karazenpo]

Doesn't It go both ways I have yet to see evidence to the contrary. So at this point I would call it a stalemate. Have you seen the evidence to the contrary Joe? All I have seen so far are conclusions drawn from the mans criminal activity. No one has shown anyone any supposed proof to the contrary. As far as I am cocerned until any proof to the contrary is firmly established I am about done with these threads. I'll come on these disscussions and throw you guys a bone once and a while.
First bone Thomas Mitose Isn't James's oldest child.

kell

Okay, Kell, I'll throw you a bone, lol, James Mitose isn't his real name, that's why people have trouble checking his history. Do you have his real name? John and I do! I'll call Professor Abregana and if he says it's okay to release it before the A&E series then I'll post it here. Do you have it?

 

[Karazenpo]

bone#2 the yoshida, Komatsu(kosho), and one other family owned the land the temple sits on.

Man, Kelly. Did you read my post#95???????? What's this Yoshida BS? My post #95 states at the bottom that the info. was not mine but was supplied by the well respected Shihan Mike Brown of Rhode Island, historian for the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai. What does Shihan Brown say of Yoshida and the Tracy claim? Now you're arguing with guys in your own organization, that's my bone#2.....lol.

 

[kelly keltner]

are we talking about masaichi or masayoshi Mitose or a different alias? Because James wasn't ever supposedly his legal first name. Or is it a completly different name?

kell

 

[kelly keltner]

no I'm not arguing with our own people, but geographicly speaking what I said about who owned the land is true. I did not say that is where his martial lineage comes from.
let me know if that's the best you got.

 

[kelly keltner]

This puppies on a two bone a day diet talk to ya tommorow.

kelly

 

[BlackCatBonz]

john.......the temple was burned down in 1588 by a christian daimyo........and rebuilt due to another daimyo that was buddhist friendly. i think its almost common knowledge to people who have studied japanese history as to the struggle for political power by the military, clergy, and imperial family. obviously the military gained and maintained control for centuries, but not without constant clashing with the clergy and the heimen. you're getting snippets of info from google......how about some hard research. no disrespect intended.

shawn bailey

 

[GAB]

Hi You guys,
I have to much respect for most of you and I am not going to get into a bickering disolution of a pretty good thread, so I will again say I am going to let this go for a while and hopefully we don't get into a hassle.

Seems there is a hostility that has finally emerged, I have also asked quite a few questions that have not been addressed so until they are I won't worry about this last couple of digressions.

Myth, I don't think so.

Regards, Gary

 

[kelly keltner]

are we talking about masaichi or masayoshi Mitose or a different alias? Because James wasn't ever supposedly his legal first name. Or is it a completly different name?

kell

i'm sorry that might be masakichi

 

[John Bishop]

john.......the temple was burned down in 1588 by a christian daimyo........and rebuilt due to another daimyo that was buddhist friendly. i think its almost common knowledge to people who have studied japanese history as to the struggle for political power by the military, clergy, and imperial family. obviously the military gained and maintained control for centuries, but not without constant clashing with the clergy and the heimen. you're getting snippets of info from google......how about some hard research. no disrespect intended.

shawn bailey

What does 1588 have to do with the descendents of monks who trained with Mitose in the 1900s?


p.s. Gary, I don't think anyone here is getting out of line or disrespectful toward each other. We're having a good debate here. Unlike some of the people who think they're above discussions on talk forums, everyone here is contributing information. How are we ever going to find the truth if everyone holds back what information they have.

 

[Karazenpo]

What does 1588 have to do with the descendents of monks who trained with Mitose in the 1900s?


p.s. Gary, I don't think anyone here is getting out of line or disrespectful toward each other. We're having a good debate here. Unlike some of the people who think they're above discussions on talk forums, everyone here is contributing information. How are we ever going to find the truth if everyone holds back what information they have.

First of all, Gary, John is RIGHT! No disrespect from anyone, just one helluva good debate! Yeah, there were a few misunderstandings but we cleared them up. I'm not upset with anyone's opinion, this is just getting good! lol. Okay, kelly, No, that is not the name. I have the name and so does John but I don't know as of yet if I can release it. Please believe me, I'm not playing games but I just have to check with Professor Abregana first, you know, sometimes you talk in confidence and I can't betray that trust but I will ask. However, now I have another question. If the Kosho ryu 'powers to be' are leveling with you with this information than how come you don't have Mitose's real name and we do? Kell, I'm not bust'n balls, I'm just trying to make a point, there's something wrong with this picture. I honestly do have the name and it's nothing close to what you posted.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

my reference to the 1588 razing of the temple, which coincides with japanese history, is merely a vehicle to show why mitose claimed that from that period forward the "family" art was practiced in secret. it was only then (after 4 centuries of fighting with the yamabushi, sohei, and their associations with the various displaced buke of the time) that the military of japan managed to get the upper hand and maintain its power. after that, the threats were mostly from farmer uprisings.

all im doing is trying to give some japanese historical background, strictly for anyone that wants it. and that these events coincide with dates and some names that mitose mentioned.

and btw.........im all for debate, but mudslinging i cant stand. and prof joe, i know that you replied to my post but you missed an important element. but i hate beating a dead horse as much as the next guy.

can we not all agree on one thing......the past is the past, the present is the most important moment that you're living. as i have said before, i am interested in the history, but what i am more interested in is 2004, right now, and the teaching we give our students right now. some students will literally shape their lives on the teachings of an instructor they trust......not on the past, but on the lessons you teach right now.

shawn

 

[Karazenpo]

my reference to the 1588 razing of the temple, which coincides with japanese history, is merely a vehicle to show why mitose claimed that from that period forward the "family" art was practiced in secret. it was only then (after 4 centuries of fighting with the yamabushi, sohei, and their associations with the various displaced buke of the time) that the military of japan managed to get the upper hand and maintain its power. after that, the threats were mostly from farmer uprisings.

all im doing is trying to give some japanese historical background, strictly for anyone that wants it. and that these events coincide with dates and some names that mitose mentioned.

and btw.........im all for debate, but mudslinging i cant stand. and prof joe, i know that you replied to my post but you missed an important element. but i hate beating a dead horse as much as the next guy.

can we not all agree on one thing......the past is the past, the present is the most important moment that you're living. as i have said before, i am interested in the history, but what i am more interested in is 2004, right now, and the teaching we give our students right now. some students will literally shape their lives on the teachings of an instructor they trust......not on the past, but on the lessons you teach right now.

shawn

Shawn, I couldn't have said it better, I didn't miss your point at all, I totally agree but you have to understand where John and I are coming from. We are looking at this aspect from a 'pure' historical point of view as an historian, we're just trying to get it right, that's all, no offense intended. Agreed, what counts is now but as historians we owe it to our students to get it straight or the best we can.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

prof joe.....are you going to be upset at either outcome of this story when it finally comes to pass? all of us that have our roots in kem(n)po as far as what is traced back to mitose could just be a lot of bull.........and to some people, i think that would suck big time. does that mean all of our rankings mean nothing? not in my book, because i think as a collective group we have stumbled onto something wonderful. notice i didnt use the word "create"? it is all out there waiting to be discovered, like the mysteries of life or the universe.

i totally agree with your standpoint of being a purely historical point of veiw, as i am a huge fan of historical study. but it wasnt until last year when i realised there was such animosity between the different systems......and you must admit its there.....
i didnt even want to study kempo anymore just to get away from all the crap i heard.
but alas.......i love the current teaching and what it stands for, history be damned....lol
and thats why i keep coming back.....the process, the study.

respectfully

shawn bailey

 

[KenpoDave]

First bone Thomas Mitose Isn't James's oldest child.

Alvin, isn't it? Used to run a record store in LA?

 

[KenpoDave]

I will ask 2 more simple questions:
James Mitose claimed that his temple once trained over 200 monks.
So where are the martial arts descendants of these 200 monks?
And why is there no Kosho Ryu Kenpo practiced anywhere in Japan?

I think the answer to both questions is in the name "Kosho Shorei Ryu."

The name was made up by Mitose to give clues to where it came from. The reason that monks descendants cannot be found is because the art they practice is not called that in Japan.

My opinion only.