knife on the ground

[Cryozombie]

Try it, get someone to mount you and start throwing bombs, see how effectively you can pull a knife from your belt or boot as the above poster suggested while that is going on, without getting knocked out.

Ok... so if you are mounted, this is possible IF you can disrupt the mounted attackers position and balance FIRST... Difficult to explain what I was doing in words, but I will try... As the fist comes down if you can rediret one of the first blows up and out and use your hips to disrupt his balance pitching him forward up over your chest... you buy a few seconds to draw a weapon or whatever. Its NOT EASY to do, but I see its possible. What you CANNOT do is just draw the weapon and ignore the attacks, you HAVE TO disrupt them first.

EDIT: When I say up over your chest, I dont actually mean you are throwing them off you, just displacing their hips forward, and making them lean, possibly (most of the time I did it) using at least one hand to catch their balance.

 

[Andrew Green]

Possible, yes, but what you are suggesting is tricky to do, if they where to be able to do it they would have to have some ground training. Someone with a good mount is also a little trickier to send flying forward like that.

So again, in order to fight a weapon without one you need to have a large skill advantage. Doesn't matter where you try to fight them, if you don't have that you will loose. If you have it you have a chance, but are likely still gonna get cut once or twice even if you win.

Personally, I prefer to get control of the arm and take them down. On the ground it is far easier to control them and isolate that weapon, attack the arm and get the weapon away.

Standing you have no control, they can swing the blade wildly and likely still get you once or twice.

 

[Tgace]

I think that not training groundfighting techniques against the knife would be foolish. You should be prepared for anything. However I would be cautious about training any techniques that have going to the ground against the knifeman as a primary goal. A knife is a contact weapon and the more "contact" you have with the opponent the more you are going to get cut, and odds are you are going to get cut no matter what you do anyway. For a trained knifeman, one knife hand switch and it can be all over.

 

[Jerry]

Standing you have no control, they can swing the blade wildly and likely still get you once or twice.

I think this may be our problem, and tell me if it sounds likely to you.

I'm a comptent grappler, who focuses mostly on upright work. I'm comfortable controlling a knkife while standing (as comfortable as I'll ever be when an opponent has a blade). I spend less time aggressively on the ground, but enough to feel reasonably that I can get to a knife while having someone in me and pummeling.

You are a competent grappler who focuses mostly on ground work. You are about as comfortable upright as I am in a mount (you can do it, but it's far from your strong suiete). As such, you can easily imagine getting a knife to move from someone grappling you upright.

I am surprised that you don't feel you could get out a knife if someone had mounted you. Do you feel you can survive and recover from being mounted at all, or has that been "instant KO" for you in your experience (emphasis on "instant")?

Try it, get someone to mount you and start throwing bombs, see how effectively you can pull a knife from your belt or boot as the above poster suggested while that is going on, without getting knocked out.

To be entirely honest, I don't want to fidn out so much that I'm willing to take the beating that would be neccessairy to prove the point either way (unpadded on a hard surface, do I go unconsious before I get the stab).

So, give up mount, take the chicken wing and pop the shoulder if you like...

I do agree that controlling the knife-arm is paramount. I'm sure you are compitent at doing that on the ground. My bigger concern is if the knife comes out while you are already on the ground and (presumably) not controlling the knife arm initially (in "ground and pound" you've blocked off their arms from getting good hits on you, but you're not typically controlling them unless you are engaging in another grapple (such as to flip them on their stomach)).

Who said you had to stay mounted?

No one. The question (as I understand it) is whether it's a preferred position to be in when the knife appears. I don't think it is, as I don't think it generally has enough arm control / positional control (by the latter, I mean it's hard to move away / move him away very fast, which can be done in upright grapples). In short, it would be very easy to have the weapon mobile and on an relatively immobile portion of your body which he can find by contact with him (your legs, your groin, your back).

Not compromised, attack the arm and retain control.

Your weight's forward and you are subject to being bridged. Obviously, there's a counter to that, and a coutner to the counter.

 

[lonecoyote]

How about shrimping to the side where you're drawing from, if a belt draw, if someone has a mount, you carry your knife on your right side, you shrimp to have your right side underneath you, throwing your left hand up over your head after you shrimp out of the mount, and drawing w/your right. Yeah it might not be very fast, but with your knife underneath your body on the side, the odds are that the other guy won't get it. If you just buck your hips, they slide up higher, then you're really messed up cause how are you going to get your hands down to your hips?

 

[guromkb]

Very interesting thread...are we basing this on theory or actual experiance in grappling against a knifer. Are you considering the variables? I have been attacked and damn near died from a knife wound (collapsed right lung) and guess what there is no telling what your gonna do until the time it actually happens. And yes I did try and take the man to the ground and use my size to nullify it and YES I was a dumb *** for doing so. While I was grappling with this guy all I could think of was to control that arm with the blade in his hand and then WHAM he pulled a blade out of his other jean pocket and nailed me. You see theres to many things that can go wrong. So is it important to learn how to grapple against a knifer IMHO maybe, but I will never ever go down to the ground with a knifer...learn how to stun and run and if your lucky and God's on your side you may get out of there with a cut or two but you damn sure dont wanna end up on a respirator like I did. Theory is one thing but life is another. You wanna make your scenario real, get yourself a nice pointed non edged wooden training knife and go for real and then tell me how you fair ..Im sure it wont be well.The blade is an unforgiving ***** and if you **** around with a knifer your betting your life that your flesh is stronger than that blade , odds are against ya.

PS if your dueling , your wrong, if it's an ambush with intent SAYONARA...

 

[Tgace]

Normally I take the "been there done that" posts with a grain of salt, but that post above impresses me as the real deal, 100% truth...words of wisdom there.

 

[Cryozombie]

Very interesting thread...are we basing this on theory or actual experiance in grappling against a knifer. Are you considering the variables? I have been attacked and damn near died from a knife wound (collapsed right lung) and guess what there is no telling what your gonna do until the time it actually happens. And yes I did try and take the man to the ground and use my size to nullify it and YES I was a dumb *** for doing so. While I was grappling with this guy all I could think of was to control that arm with the blade in his hand and then WHAM he pulled a blade out of his other jean pocket and nailed me. You see theres to many things that can go wrong. So is it important to learn how to grapple against a knifer IMHO maybe, but I will never ever go down to the ground with a knifer...learn how to stun and run and if your lucky and God's on your side you may get out of there with a cut or two but you damn sure dont wanna end up on a respirator like I did. Theory is one thing but life is another. You wanna make your scenario real, get yourself a nice pointed non edged wooden training knife and go for real and then tell me how you fair ..Im sure it wont be well.The blade is an unforgiving ***** and if you **** around with a knifer your betting your life that your flesh is stronger than that blade , odds are against ya.

PS if your dueling , your wrong, if it's an ambush with intent SAYONARA...

You know whats great about this post? It illustrates in real life somthing my instructor has told me in the dojo...

If I guy is carrying a knife, there is a good chance he has a second one.

 

[guromkb]

You know whats great about this post? It illustrates in real life somthing my instructor has told me in the dojo...

If I guy is carrying a knife, there is a good chance he has a second one.

Agreed ....I carry 2 blades always and most of the FMA stylists I know do as well. The aformentioned incident years ago when I as a student of Judo and Karate..I had obtained blackbelt status in Goju and was training Judo. From that day forward I redirected my training towards the Filipino blade oriented arts and have totally adopted a survivalists mentality as opposed to that of a badass ( which unfortunately some younger men posses...10 ft. tall and bullet proof is a lie folks). When you deal with edged weapons your dealing with eminent death and severe injury..as Tuhon Leo Gaje told me " If your lucky enough to survive a knife attack or fight , you may get better but you will never be well" Profound words me thinks.

If it smells like fish and tastes like fish by god it's fish , use that gut instinct it works.

 

[Cruentus]

As to grappling and knifework, I think it still should be addressed. One doesn't need to grapple like one is entering the UFC, but one does need to learn to grapple enough to prevent getting dumped on the ground in a less dominant position in a fight, or to prevent from being overtaken on the ground if you end up there.

Where grappling fits in with knife work, and how it should be trained if one is preparing for what may happened in a fight, is the scenario where someone try's to pull a knife, or pick something up that resembles a knife, while on the ground, or while in the standing grappling range. You could also consider if someone dumps you on the ground, or you trip, and his friend gets involved, and he is armed with something sharp. You have one guy grappling up on you, and another that is now armed with a sharp tool; not a good situation to be in, but better to work out these problems as much as possible in training rather then to be stuck with whatever happenes if this does occur in a fight. There are live exercises and scenario sparring type drills that can address these situation in training. And, these types of situations need to be addressed, or one is missing a major part of what may happened in reality. Remember: we don't rise to our expectations, we fall to our level of training and preperation.

As to the idea of attempting to grapple with a knife wielding assailent as you would if you were grappling on the mat in a match - this is something I would not recommend. The variables are entirely different in reality then on the mat, making this approach a very bad tactic that can get you killed. If all one focuses on is his hammer, then every problem begins to look like a nail. There are a lot of other tools in the toolbox that should be used against a knife wielding assailent, starting with the most noble tactic of running to safety.

Lastly, it is still important to grapple... period. "Anti-grappling" starts with learning how to grapple. You can't learn to deal with a grappling situation without getting on the mat and understanding how to utilize your body in the clinch or on the ground. The solutions to the problems of grappling in a fight must to start with grappling in practice.

Just my extended thoughts on the subject. Take it for what it is worth to you...

Yours,

Paul

 

[arnisador]

Try it, get someone to mount you and start throwing bombs, see how effectively you can pull a knife from your belt or boot as the above poster suggested while that is going on, without getting knocked out.

I dunno...people last a long time on the bottom, it seems to me, putting their arms up to protect their faces. How long does it take to put one arm up and use the other to deploy a knife and put it in someone's thigh?

You can't trade blows against a knife. Positional thinking of the BJJ sort isn't enough.

 

[arnisador]

If I guy is carrying a knife, there is a good chance he has a second one.

Yes. I drive this point home with students to the point that I fear I become boring...there's ALWAYS another weapon. If you were going out at night looking for trouble, wouldn't you bring a backup?

 

[Andrew Green]

I dunno...people last a long time on the bottom, it seems to me, putting their arms up to protect their faces. How long does it take to put one arm up and use the other to deploy a knife and put it in someone's thigh?

People last a long time there IF they are very skilled and no what to do to survive. If that is the case, and they have a weapon you're gonna get cut up.

The ONLY way to beat a opponent with a weapon is too have a much higher level of skill, and preferably superior size strength and speed on top of that. Even then all it takes is one mistake or one lucky movement and you're bleeding.

 

[tradrockrat]

The ONLY way to beat a opponent with a weapon is too have a much higher level of skill, and preferably superior size strength and speed on top of that. Even then all it takes is one mistake or one lucky movement and you're bleeding.

It also helps if your opponent has been drinking heavily...at least that's my experience. :wink1:

 

[arnisador]

The ONLY way to beat a opponent with a weapon is too have a much higher level of skill, and preferably superior size strength and speed on top of that. Even then all it takes is one mistake or one lucky movement and you're bleeding.

Yes, don't discount the importance of luck in a case like this.

 

[guromkb]

Yes, don't discount the importance of luck in a case like this.

1. God
2. Luck
3. Skill
In that order hope you have at least one on your side

I agree grappling is a good method to learn but my point is don't expect for the perfect world to suddenly appear and everything is fine. One can say what he will do or how bad he thinks he is but until the crap hits the fan it is all theory and conjecture PERIOD! I was damn lucky to survive and it forever changed my outlook on martial arts. I now take a less is more view of things with a survivalist mentality and vicious demeanor when warranted, I now carry and train extensively with firearms, I have focused on the Filipino systems of knife combatives and empty hand methodologies including the Dumog ground work. Some may say i went over board and became a much more intense and somewhat unpleasing chap to be around from time to time but they didn't have a shank drilled into there right lung and awoke to the nasty taste of a resperator. But to each there own

 

[Andrew Green]

1. God
2. Luck
3. Skill
In that order hope you have at least one on your side

So athiests are buggered from the get go?

 

[guromkb]

So athiests are buggered from the get go?

Yepp! Old saying, "there's no athiests in fox holes". Too each there own believe how you want, but me personally I prefer having the option of 3 as opposed to 2 but hey whatever you feel works best for you is cool with me.

It's funny how many times I've heard athiests/agnostics etc. praying to god when the **** splats the fan. But then again alot of people use G_D as there moral bactine when things go wrong! But that's another discussion for a different forum.

G_D Bless Texas!

 

[Eternal Beginner]

Very interesting thread...are we basing this on theory or actual experiance in grappling against a knifer. Are you considering the variables? I have been attacked and damn near died from a knife wound (collapsed right lung) and guess what there is no telling what your gonna do until the time it actually happens. And yes I did try and take the man to the ground and use my size to nullify it and YES I was a dumb *** for doing so. While I was grappling with this guy all I could think of was to control that arm with the blade in his hand and then WHAM he pulled a blade out of his other jean pocket and nailed me. You see theres to many things that can go wrong. So is it important to learn how to grapple against a knifer IMHO maybe, but I will never ever go down to the ground with a knifer...learn how to stun and run and if your lucky and God's on your side you may get out of there with a cut or two but you damn sure dont wanna end up on a respirator like I did. Theory is one thing but life is another. You wanna make your scenario real, get yourself a nice pointed non edged wooden training knife and go for real and then tell me how you fair ..Im sure it wont be well.The blade is an unforgiving ***** and if you **** around with a knifer your betting your life that your flesh is stronger than that blade , odds are against ya.

PS if your dueling , your wrong, if it's an ambush with intent SAYONARA...

I just wanted to say I appreciated this reply...especially the parts I have hi-lited. Play fighting with friends in the gym is very different then an attack with intent by someone who is acting on base animal instinct...thanks for injecting a little dose of reality.

 

[Knarfan]

As to grappling and knifework, I think it still should be addressed. One doesn't need to grapple like one is entering the UFC, but one does need to learn to grapple enough to prevent getting dumped on the ground in a less dominant position in a fight, or to prevent from being overtaken on the ground if you end up there.

Where grappling fits in with knife work, and how it should be trained if one is preparing for what may happened in a fight, is the scenario where someone try's to pull a knife, or pick something up that resembles a knife, while on the ground, or while in the standing grappling range. You could also consider if someone dumps you on the ground, or you trip, and his friend gets involved, and he is armed with something sharp. You have one guy grappling up on you, and another that is now armed with a sharp tool; not a good situation to be in, but better to work out these problems as much as possible in training rather then to be stuck with whatever happenes if this does occur in a fight. There are live exercises and scenario sparring type drills that can address these situation in training. And, these types of situations need to be addressed, or one is missing a major part of what may happened in reality. Remember: we don't rise to our expectations, we fall to our level of training and preperation.

As to the idea of attempting to grapple with a knife wielding assailent as you would if you were grappling on the mat in a match - this is something I would not recommend. The variables are entirely different in reality then on the mat, making this approach a very bad tactic that can get you killed. If all one focuses on is his hammer, then every problem begins to look like a nail. There are a lot of other tools in the toolbox that should be used against a knife wielding assailent, starting with the most noble tactic of running to safety.

Lastly, it is still important to grapple... period. "Anti-grappling" starts with learning how to grapple. You can't learn to deal with a grappling situation without getting on the mat and understanding how to utilize your body in the clinch or on the ground. The solutions to the problems of grappling in a fight must to start with grappling in practice.

Just my extended thoughts on the subject. Take it for what it is worth to you...

Yours,

Paul

I like your outline on training & the relationship between what should be addressed in your training vs what is a possible occurance of what could happen in a real life situation. I like the message "anything is possible", including being taken down to the ground against your will. Don't wait, train for it ahead of time, it will help you deal with reality & make an educated decition on tactics. I know that training is training but, we can always improve our methods. I think that your thoughts on the subject are worth alot

. Do what ever you have to do to stay alive. No matter how much you train you will never be over prepared.