knife on the ground

[Knarfan]

When the Sayoc clan used to come down to Florida for thier SamaSamas Tom Kier did a nice demo of some of the knife templates on the ground, very eye opening!

Tom has some interesting concept drills. He has taught me a whole lot about grappling with weapons among other things. A big part of Sayoc training is close quarters combat & grappling,(vertical & horizonal). Of course nobody wants to be that close to a sharp blade but you never know what position you might end up in. Another art that has some interesting edge weapons grappling is Silat.

 

[arnisador]

Dr. Gyi has taught some on-th-ground techniques.

For me, going to the ground with a knifer would be a last resort, unless I had him on his stomach with me on his back or at least having an arm bar.

 

[Loki]

I agree with the importance of knife on the ground training, but I still feel it's somewhat reckless to think of it as a goal. Groundwork is involves closeness, the last thing you want with an edged weapon, moreso if it doesn't start off in your hand.

 

[tradrockrat]

Dr. Gyi has taught some on-the-ground techniques.

For me, going to the ground with a knifer would be a last resort, unless I had him on his stomach with me on his back or at least having an arm bar.

He sure has, and they work well in practice, though I've never used them live. Many of the take downs I've learned came from him as well, but the isolation techniques I used once in an actual fight (BTW, it put my attacker on the ground on his stomach with me on his back. His arm was bared across my knee) came from Phil Ross in New Jersey and Pat Finley from Baltimore. Both of these gentleman train in Bando, but also train outside the system. Pat is a student of Sifu Inosanto.

 

[Knarfan]

Dr. Gyi has taught some on-th-ground techniques.

For me, going to the ground with a knifer would be a last resort, unless I had him on his stomach with me on his back or at least having an arm bar.

Good point but I think that you also have to be prepared to flow, tap or transition to a second or third option even when your on the ground. This is where practicing your flow drills or freeflowing on the ground or standing can help just incase the armbar or first control move dosen't work. If you don't develope sensitivity & flow nothing will work anyway. You really have to be able to decieve the person attacking you for a split second to gain any type of control & you should assume that the control you have is only going to last a couple of seconds. If you notice most times when people do knife demos the knifer attacks the other person pulls off some control move & the guy with the knife is on the ground crying for mercy. What you will find out if you do alot of training is that there are plenty of control oportunities available but, they only last a second or two before the guy can wiggle his way out(unless you have a big physical avantage or a superior skill level) but, the reality is that is the best & most realistic thing you can hope for because that split second of control is probably going to save your life or get you to the next move or give you the ability or opportunity to flee or draw a weapon. Also IMO, you either have to be completly out of range or in close range for any kind of tapping or control move to work. If you stay in that middle range your going to get sliced up fast. Once you make contact you have to use sticky energy to track the blade & when your doing your parries you have to cork screw toward the opponants body with some controlled forward energy. If you just pass the blade with no forward energy you can't track the knifers loop energy. You have to slow him down. Practicing your flow drills on the ground helps you understand this concept because alot of times you can't move your body out of the way when your on the ground. I know, it all sounds good in practice but, I practice this stuff all the time against resisting opponants. Why do I feel like I just put a bullseye on my chest

?

 

[arnisador]

Full agreement sayoc FF. Your comments about range and the transient nature of control reflect the ones I was talking about today when teaching. I type with two fingers so some of my posts aren't as detailed as they could be!

 

[Knarfan]

Full agreement sayoc FF. Your comments about range and the transient nature of control reflect the ones I was talking about today when teaching. I type with two fingers so some of my posts aren't as detailed as they could be!

Thanks Arnisador!
I'm always alittle leary when talking about knife training because even if your proficiant you still have to be extremly lucky to survive & it would be really stupid to attempt it unless there is absolutly no other options. There is just so much that can go wrong. I think that the temperary control & the energy flow that we are talking about is a good starting point for understanding.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Oh yes, "for the unarmed man there is no defense against the knife" as it has been said. Of course it's a bit too strong to say that, but it gets the idea across.

Some relevant older threads:
Why "Knife arts" will get you killed
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9429&page=2&pp=15

Street defense unarmed vs. knife (yikes!)
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2552

What is your view?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=526

 

[Jerry]

Does anyone do any groundwork with the knife, perhaps involving accessing your knife while having someone in the guard, being under the mount, or any kind of flow or trap work on the ground? How about how to fight on the ground against someone you've taken down who comes up with a knife?

For me: Yes, I do practice armed groundwork, no I do not practice it with someone in my guard as I don't use the guard, yes I do practice if from being mounted as others do use the mount, yes I do fight with me, him or us both on the ground, with he, I or both armed with knives.

On the ground there is almost always someone with more control then the other person. If I am mounted on you, I have more control then you.

That would depend heavily. Your mount is what, middle of the chest? One hand of mine is at my waist bhind your back? What is the control there?

Going to turn around to watch that hand? What about the one in front of you?

The problems with the guard are even more exagerated. The position works because it gives your opponent poor leverage and relatively rugged targets. A knife changes taht entirely.

Of course if someone has a knife, and has a dominate position you're going to be bleeding a lot... But if you can dominate you will be a lot safer then you would on your feet.

I don't agree here. I'd much prefer to be on my feet and controlling my opponent's knife than on the ground with him. My options become as limited as his (and then let's consider the multiple attacker problem).

Now don't get my wrong. It's quite possible to control a knife on the ground. It's also quite possible to control it standing. My problem is with your assertion that the ground a clearly superior place. I don't agree.

I agree with the importance of knife on the ground training, but I still feel it's somewhat reckless to think of it as a goal. Groundwork is involves closeness, the last thing you want with an edged weapon, moreso if it doesn't start off in your hand.

I fear I'm the voice of dissent yet again. I only feel a modicum of safety in two spots where knives are involved. Far away and completely smothered. It's that middle range I fear.

I do think that grappling in a neccessairy component of anti-knife work. I need to control the knife and the only way to do that right off (shy of a lucky strike) is to grapple. I simply don't support the ground as the preference.

 

[tradrockrat]

Oh yes, "for the unarmed man there is no defense against the knife" as it has been said. Of course it's a bit too strong to say that, but it gets the idea across.

Some relevant older threads:
Why "Knife arts" will get you killed
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9429&page=2&pp=15

Street defense unarmed vs. knife (yikes!)
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2552

What is your view?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=526

Thanks for the links. It's important for people to realize that you'll never really "win" against a knife, though you can survive.

 

[Andrew Green]

That would depend heavily. Your mount is what, middle of the chest? One hand of mine is at my waist bhind your back? What is the control there?

umm... no, but don't take my word for it. Glove up and give it a try...

 

[Jerry]

umm... no, but don't take my word for it. Glove up and give it a try...

I have. I've not done it against you mounting, and would be hapy to, but am not about to head up to Canada for the opportunity and doubt you are coming down here.

Are you simply asserting a lower mount (say the hips)? That would interfere with a belt-draw but not a boot draw.

I'm gonna take a wild stab and assume your mount generally resembles this. Let me know if I'm wrong in that assumption.

 

[Loki]

Did some sparring VS knife with a friend today. We got to a ground situation and I stabbed her in the heart (I was knifeman). I still can't see the pros of going to the ground.

 

[Andrew Green]

Did some sparring VS knife with a friend today. We got to a ground situation and I stabbed her in the heart (I was knifeman). I still can't see the pros of going to the ground.

It helps IF you are a superior groundfighter and can take them down to a controlling position. If you can do that you are much safer then on then you would be standing as you can control them better. But there is that "if" there, if you are not a better groundfighter going to the ground is a bad idea.

 

[Andrew Green]

Are you simply asserting a lower mount (say the hips)? That would interfere with a belt-draw but not a boot draw.

I'm asserting that if someone that knows what they are doing is mounted on you, you will not have a easy time drawing a knife from anywhere, even if they are not punching you in the face really hard at the time (which they most likely will be doing)

and a static picture will not show that, especially one of two guys training Sport Juijitsu.

Plus, putting your foot in a position that your hand can reach it, and reaching back for it, leaves open a couple of choices for locks.

 

[tradrockrat]

Rereading the posts here, there seems to be some cross talking about exactly what is meant by groundfighting with a knife. IMHO, there are two distinct types of groundfighting with a weapon.

In the first case, an attacker comes at you with a weapon (knife for the purposes of this thread) drawn and the resultant struggles winds up going to the ground. In this case, if you are concentrating on a mount or dominant position, you are most likely already dead and don't know it. Realistically, if you haven't already at least partially isolated the weapon, your attacker is vigorously sticking into you repeatedly. For me, in this case I would have already tried to disarm my assailent before closing the distance and grappling. Assuming this didn't work, my entire effort would be to isolate the weapon and break something he needs to hold on to his weapon - ie his, fingers, wrist, elbow, or shoulder. Of course, at the same time, I'd need to protect myself from his "other weapons" like his fist and elbows, etc. I've had two encounters with a knife, one I avoided fighting entirely, one was a case like this. I got cut on both hands, but I lived. He went to the hospital and later to jail. (BTW- it's really hard to hold onto somebody when your hands are covered with blood)

The second type of ground fighting I've never encountered personally, but it involves grappling on the ground AND THEN your opponent pulls a knife. This requires a whole new set of strategies which, again IMHO, reside mainly in not allowing him to get that knife out. I honestly feel that I don't have the skills to handle the situation if he gets that knife to bear. It's too close and too hard to control. Unless I was able to disengage and get up, I feel that I would in all likelyhood die. Therefore, if I was able to recognize what he was trying to do - a BIG "if" - I would either attack his limb (break something) or get the hell off of him.

 

[Knarfan]

Rereading the posts here, there seems to be some cross talking about exactly what is meant by groundfighting with a knife. IMHO, there are two distinct types of groundfighting with a weapon.

In the first case, an attacker comes at you with a weapon (knife for the purposes of this thread) drawn and the resultant struggles winds up going to the ground. In this case, if you are concentrating on a mount or dominant position, you are most likely already dead and don't know it. Realistically, if you haven't already at least partially isolated the weapon, your attacker is vigorously sticking into you repeatedly. For me, in this case I would have already tried to disarm my assailent before closing the distance and grappling. Assuming this didn't work, my entire effort would be to isolate the weapon and break something he needs to hold on to his weapon - ie his, fingers, wrist, elbow, or shoulder. Of course, at the same time, I'd need to protect myself from his "other weapons" like his fist and elbows, etc. I've had two encounters with a knife, one I avoided fighting entirely, one was a case like this. I got cut on both hands, but I lived. He went to the hospital and later to jail. (BTW- it's really hard to hold onto somebody when your hands are covered with blood)

The second type of ground fighting I've never encountered personally, but it involves grappling on the ground AND THEN your opponent pulls a knife. This requires a whole new set of strategies which, again IMHO, reside mainly in not allowing him to get that knife out. I honestly feel that I don't have the skills to handle the situation if he gets that knife to bear. It's too close and too hard to control. Unless I was able to disengage and get up, I feel that I would in all likelyhood die. Therefore, if I was able to recognize what he was trying to do - a BIG "if" - I would either attack his limb (break something) or get the hell off of him.

Good idea getting off the ride if you can. If your on top & you don't feel comfortable you should flee. Trying to break a limb or control a limb is a good idea but, your chances of that might not be that good(especially if a blade is involved) IMO, you would have to have a hugh physical advantage over the person or some incredible skills. I train with some MA who don't really have alot of weapons training & to be honest they may be the easiest people to cut. It's not because they aren't great martial artist or superior fighters, it's because they don't have alot of weapons training period. It's really a mindset that seperates the two. Here is one example or reason that I think this happens. Someone who trains with a knife is waiting for the person that they are attacking to commit to a limb, reach, grab or throw a commited strike, it's called a reflexive response. Unless you have alot of sensitivity training & hours & hours of weapons training including knife grappling drills you probably won't get past your first move, because that is what the knifer is setting you up for. Now if you take on the mindset of the attacker & be the one doing the decieving you can get some control but, it's not going to happen on your first move you have to be able to flow into a position of control & that happens through intense training with weapons & people who are very good at attacking with weapons then you can start to understand the sensitivity & timing that it takes to gain control. It's not the same control that most people are used to. there are alot of intermediate controls that you miss that are really important when you are trying to control a knife arm. The reason that I am bringing up these points is because I want to drive home the fact that knife grappling drills are very important for survival. Even if you don't ever intened to go to the ground you need to feel what it's like, you will get some valuble lessons. My theory is that if you want to have any kind of realistic chance of survival against a weapons attack you have to keep an open mind & really examine all possibilities including, grappling your way to survival. Also that was a good point about the blood on your hands, makes it kinda hard to gain any limb control.

 

[Jerry]

I'm asserting that if someone that knows what they are doing is mounted on you, you will not have a easy time drawing a knife from anywhere, even if they are not punching you in the face really hard at the time (which they most likely will be doing)

I'm having trouble imaginng how you are punching at my face while grappling something which is near the ground and behind your back. It seems that one or the other will not work. Do you have an illustration?

Plus, putting your foot in a position that your hand can reach it, and reaching back for it, leaves open a couple of choices for locks.

I'm sorry, I see the same problem here. I don't see how you are reaching behind your back to deal with where one hand and leg are without loosing your mount and ignoring the hand that is up near my own head. By mounting the middle of my body, half my body is neccessarily behind you. Your best bet would seem to focus on control of both my arms, try to get me over for a back-mount; but in that case the knife may never come out (and the question was about if it did).

I think working a knife from a mount (assuming it's out and in front of you) is a mixed bag. You've got a great position, but one that is comprimised if you really go to smother the knife well.

 

[tradrockrat]

... I want to drive home the fact that knife grappling drills are very important for survival. Even if you don't ever intened to go to the ground you need to feel what it's like, you will get some valuble lessons. My theory is that if you want to have any kind of realistic chance of survival against a weapons attack you have to keep an open mind & really examine all possibilities including, grappling your way to survival.

I think this is the best point made in this thread yet. If you don't train for it, you can't possibly be prepared for it.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'm having trouble imaginng how you are punching at my face while grappling something which is near the ground and behind your back. It seems that one or the other will not work. Do you have an illustration?

Try it, get someone to mount you and start throwing bombs, see how effectively you can pull a knife from your belt or boot as the above poster suggested while that is going on, without getting knocked out.

I'm sorry, I see the same problem here. I don't see how you are reaching behind your back to deal with where one hand and leg are without loosing your mount and ignoring the hand that is up near my own head.

So, give up mount, take the chicken wing and pop the shoulder if you like...

or use the hooks and attack the ankles (keeping mount)

or any other number of nasty things that you can do to someone who compromises there position while you are mounted on them.

Who said you had to stay mounted?

By mounting the middle of my body, half my body is neccessarily behind you. Your best bet would seem to focus on control of both my arms, try to get me over for a back-mount; but in that case the knife may never come out (and the question was about if it did).

Yup, the chances of the guy getting the opportunity to reach back like that are not good, and if he does he opens himself up.

I think working a knife from a mount (assuming it's out and in front of you) is a mixed bag. You've got a great position, but one that is comprimised if you really go to smother the knife well.

Not compromised, attack the arm and retain control.

Again I stress, going to the ground if you are not a somewhat experienced grappler isn't going to work. Stick too what you know and where you are comfortable.