Kempo/Kenpo techniques

[Kung Fu Wang]

- 1step sparring, the uke just punches, and then you do your technique.
- 2step, the uke punches, you respond, the uke kicks, you respond finiahing technique.
- 3step, uke punches, you vlock and strike, uke attempts to grab you, you break grab and kick, uke blocks kick and kicks back, you block kick and punch.

Do you also train you attack first such as a foot sweep (or a low roundhouse kick) to your opponent's leading leg?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Your opponent throws 1 punch. You counter with 5 moves while he is still frozen in his punch. Is this realistic? In the normal situation, if you make 1 move, your opponent will respond with 1 move. When you make your 2nd move, he will respond with your 2nd move.

Unless you are 5 times faster than your opponent, this kind of training is not realistic IMO.

Do you also train you attack first such as a foot sweep (or a low roundhouse kick) to your opponent's leading leg?

So my answer to both of these is the same, and keep in mind I've been to 4 different schools in NY/NJ, but I have no way of saying if my experience is typical.

So the first thing to say I think has already been said: trainign these combos is no different than a 1234/jab-cross-hook-uppercut in boxing. You're training to make specific parts fluid, you don't need to be able to do a full combination, but you do need to be able to follow something up after a strike lands. By practicing 5 different strikes in a row, you're learning how to follow up regardless of when/what strike you manage to hit with. No one would actually assume you are five times faster than your opponent (although in fairness I can think of situations where I was rocked, and had to back the F up while my sparring partner executed more than a 5 point combo, before I could re-center myself to respond. Check out the most recent heavyweight boxing championship and you'll see the same thing).

As for the second part: yes. In every kempo/kenpo school I trained in, once you reached a certain level of skill, a huge percentage of the drills were "This guy who knows how to fight will continue attacking you. Block avoid, land strikes, until you find the option to land a combo." That meant both that I would figure out ways to respond to thinks like a low roundhouse, and I would learn to perform those strikes while trying to prevent a counterattack. I can't guarantee that's across the board for kenpo/kempo, but from my experience it has been.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They are not intended to be realistic.

They are a drill. They teach you how to flow from technique to technique and help you build speed and smoothness from technique to technique.

They also help you understand what techniques flow good together.

You get realistic training in the form of live sparring.

Thank you. You said this much better and simpler than I could.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I have no problem with practicing techniques against an unskilled stick/club attack, but this has a glaring problem regardless.

Look at the range. If the defender stood perfectly still and did nothing, the attacker would not actually hit him with the stick. It would be her wrist coming down on his head. Best case scenario, maybe it would be the butt of the stick making contact, but no one, trained or not, uses a stick that way. Having a club gives you range, You don't hold a stick and then step forward with a straight arm hammerfist attack that ignores the entire length of the stick.

I don't know why this practice is so endemic among kenpo schools. I searched YouTube for "kenpo club defense" and 70% of the results had the same thing. In some cases it would actually have been the attackers forearm impacting rather than the weapon. I did eventually find a few examples where it would be the weapon making contact, but even then the point of impact would have been along the 1/3 of the weapon closest to the grip rather than near the end of the club. Even an untrained person can usually figure out that is less than ideal.

In my opinion, understanding distance is one of the most important aspects of fighting skill. Training with drastically incorrect distancing is counterproductive, especially when it's never acknowledged and the participants don't even seem to be aware of it.

So I'm going to preface this by saying I have no video evidence to support my argument. Actually, there is video evidence, from one of my SKK studios (I'm actually in the videos), but they are password protected, and I don't think they want them shared here.

The videos that I'm aware of generally teach how to perform the movements. For that purpose, it's not a concern what the range is, or if the person would actually succeed with the attack. But when people learn it this is the general process from what I've seen: Initially like the video shows: an attack that will not hit, you practice the movement. Then, an attack that will hit, practiced in a drill, where you respond to the one specific attack. Then: The person attacks however they feel will be effective (could be an overhand swing, underhand swing ,stab, baseball bat swing, etc), and you respond with the appropriate tech for the situation. Than, you give one person a club one person open handed, and tell them go wild. The person who's attacking has the goal of hitting the other person with the club, stick, etc. as much as they can, while the other person has the goal of stopping them as much as possible. The reason you wouldn't see that in an online video is it's not actually teaching a way to block it; presumably the person already has learned all the ways to block it, and it's just a matter of using footwork, handspeed, and luck to be successful.

As a result, the footwork learning range is taught separately from the tech. Im not sure why that wouldn't be available on youtube, but I'm also not sure how to specifically google distancing footwork for weapons. As a side note, I learned most of my distancing techniques from fencing, and 2 of my kenpo instructors had experience in fencing, so that may influence my experiences. I can say that in my USSD studio, where they had no experience in kali or fencing, they talked about how the last 2/3rds of the stick/club are the most dangerous, and the importance of staying either fully out of range, or jumping in as quickly as possible to mitigate the damage.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

We can only discuss a clip that has been put up in the forum. We can't discuss any clip that we don't see.

Since the Kempo Karate has strong influence from the CMA, the block, grab, pull, and punch back with another hand is in their DNA.

Are you saying this is a bad thing or a good thing? I've successfully used that combo a ton of times in sparring systems that allow it (depending on what you're grabbing), and considering kempo's main goal is to transition from far-close-far-close, it's a very gtood way of doing it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

A "glaring" problem. Well, yeah, it is after all, a technique called "Blocking the Sun".

You could just use sunblock.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You could just use sunblock.

That's just bad.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So I'm going to preface this by saying I have no video evidence to support my argument. Actually, there is video evidence, from one of my SKK studios (I'm actually in the videos), but they are password protected, and I don't think they want them shared here.

The videos that I'm aware of generally teach how to perform the movements. For that purpose, it's not a concern what the range is, or if the person would actually succeed with the attack. But when people learn it this is the general process from what I've seen: Initially like the video shows: an attack that will not hit, you practice the movement. Then, an attack that will hit, practiced in a drill, where you respond to the one specific attack. Then: The person attacks however they feel will be effective (could be an overhand swing, underhand swing ,stab, baseball bat swing, etc), and you respond with the appropriate tech for the situation. Than, you give one person a club one person open handed, and tell them go wild. The person who's attacking has the goal of hitting the other person with the club, stick, etc. as much as they can, while the other person has the goal of stopping them as much as possible. The reason you wouldn't see that in an online video is it's not actually teaching a way to block it; presumably the person already has learned all the ways to block it, and it's just a matter of using footwork, handspeed, and luck to be successful.

As a result, the footwork learning range is taught separately from the tech. Im not sure why that wouldn't be available on youtube, but I'm also not sure how to specifically google distancing footwork for weapons. As a side note, I learned most of my distancing techniques from fencing, and 2 of my kenpo instructors had experience in fencing, so that may influence my experiences. I can say that in my USSD studio, where they had no experience in kali or fencing, they talked about how the last 2/3rds of the stick/club are the most dangerous, and the importance of staying either fully out of range, or jumping in as quickly as possible to mitigate the damage.

It’s good to hear that correct footwork and distancing are taught eventually, but I really don’t care for the pedagogical approach you describe. In my mind, footwork and distancing are probably the most important aspect of the technique. If you start with the wrong distance, then your timing, footwork, and angling will all be incorrect and will need to be fixed when you progress to training with the correct distance. For that matter, the incorrect attack is putting the attacker’s arm in an unrealistic position, so even if you are just focused on the hand movements those will also need to be tweaked when you get to more realistic training. Why not start training with the correct distance from day one?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It’s good to hear that correct footwork and distancing are taught eventually, but I really don’t care for the pedagogical approach you describe. In my mind, footwork and distancing are probably the most important aspect of the technique. If you start with the wrong distance, then your timing, footwork, and angling will all be incorrect and will need to be fixed when you progress to training with the correct distance. For that matter, the incorrect attack is putting the attacker’s arm in an unrealistic position, so even if you are just focused on the hand movements those will also need to be tweaked when you get to more realistic training. Why not start training with the correct distance from day one?

Agreed, assuming what he's saying is they make the attack from an incorrect range (which seems to be the case). We can get the range right and pull the strike, or use a soft weapon, to give a chance to practice the technique more realistically. It is my experience that beginner attacks given with poor intent (wrong range, sloppy attack, etc.) turn into bad habits on both sides, and require a lot of work to correct.

 

[skribs]

I think part of the problem is that when you view a technique in a video, it is:

• Being done in slow motion so you can see the parts together
• A demonstration of how the technique can work, instead of a demonstration of the technique actually working
• Done without the ability to feel what is happening
• Done without the ability of the instructor making the video being able to critique your technique while you do the technique
• You get a snapshot of the technique in the "no resistance" or "passive resistance" phase, because usually active resistance doesn't make for a good demonstration video

One of the best examples, I watched a video of two guys who were critiquing another video, to see if the self defense in that video was correct. Well, these two guys tried a simple hand grab escape, and failed miserably at it. The hand-grab was a cross-arm grab, where the attacker takes their right hand, and grabs the defender's right wrist. The technique was to open your hand wide (to flex your wrist), and pull your thumb towards their thumb.

Where these two guys went wrong, is the way they grabbed. Instead of grabbing with their thumb on top, they grabbed with their fingers on top (reached over the arm to grab instead of just straight across). Now, this wouldn't be an issue (you can still go thumb to thumb), but they didn't understand the principle of the technique. They only copied the movement, which in this case meant they were trying to pull their hand free by pull their hand into the palm of the other person.

On the one hand, these guys failed to understand the concept, and I have criticized them for it in the comments of the video. However, if 2 trained MMA fighters can't figure out that concept based on the video, then the video's done a poor job teaching self defense to the unitiated.

Had the person who made the original video been present, they could have said "he's grabbing you the other way, so you have to pull your hand out the other way." In this case, it would make a lot more sense, and maybe they would have understood how the technique works.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you saying this is a bad thing or a good thing? I've successfully used that combo a ton of times in sparring systems that allow it (depending on what you're grabbing), and considering kempo's main goal is to transition from far-close-far-close, it's a very gtood way of doing it.

It's a good thing.

Again, this will require that your opponent to block your punch. IMO, counter to counter should also be included into the drills.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why not start training with the correct distance from day one?

If you let your opponent to enter your kicking range and your leg hasn't kick out, there is something wrong with your kicking skill. In other words, it's not that easy to enter the kicking range without having to deal with a powerful kick.

Sometime I don't understand why people train so many different techniques to deal with punch. A front toes push kick, or a 45 degree downward hay-maker should be able to deal with all punches.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It’s good to hear that correct footwork and distancing are taught eventually, but I really don’t care for the pedagogical approach you describe. In my mind, footwork and distancing are probably the most important aspect of the technique. If you start with the wrong distance, then your timing, footwork, and angling will all be incorrect and will need to be fixed when you progress to training with the correct distance. For that matter, the incorrect attack is putting the attacker’s arm in an unrealistic position, so even if you are just focused on the hand movements those will also need to be tweaked when you get to more realistic training. Why not start training with the correct distance from day one?

The idea is to break down the teaching/learning to manageable parts. I'm not sure if it's better to do that or not, but considering you eventually learn how to do the tech's fully/in the appropriate situation at full speed, it seems to work. The only issue IMO is that some people spend too much time in the stage you see in the videos, rather than moving on.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"he's grabbing you the other way, so you have to pull your hand out the other way."

As long as you twist your arm to against your opponent's thumb (1 finger) instead of to against your opponent's other 4 fingers, you are doing the right thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The only issue IMO is that some people spend too much time in the stage you see in the videos, rather than moving on.

If your 1st counter move is a foot sweep, or a punch to the back of the head, the video will look completely different.

- Your opponent punch you.
- You use foot sweep, or hay-maker to the back of his head to take/knock him down.

You then walk away with a smile on your face. That will be the best self-defense video.

 

[skribs]

As long as you twist your arm to against your opponent's thumb (1 finger) instead of to against your opponent's other 4 fingers, you are doing the right thing.

I agree. Like I said, the people in the video tried to recreate the movement (i.e. pull your hand towards your shoulder) instead of the concept (pull your thumb toward their thumb). They weren't even going for the 4 fingers, they were going into the palm! Which is even worse.

Or maybe it was a straight-arm grab and it was the opposite, but you get my point.

 

[skribs]

It's a good thing.

Again, this will require that your opponent to block your punch. IMO, counter to counter should also be included into the drills.

I think that depends on how comfortable you are with the drill itself, first. Especially because there are a nearly infinite number of ways you can respond to a punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there are a nearly infinite number of ways you can respond to a punch.

I only train 2 moves to against a punch.

1. Toes push kick to his chest (leg is longer than arm).
2. 45 degree downward hay-maker (circular move against straight line).

The nice thing about 2 is I can establish a clinch (arm contact) after that. Also my arm will always be on top of my opponent's arm.

 

[skribs]

I only train 2 moves to against a punch.

1. Toes push kick to his chest (leg is longer than arm).
2. 45 degree downward hay-maker (circular move against straight line).

The nice thing about 2 is I can establish a clinch (arm contact) after that. Also my arm will always be on top of my opponent's arm.

That's what you train. Your opponent can do a lot of different things outside of that. So if you want to drill for your opponents possible counters, you need to be aware of them.

Edit to add: your opponent can roll his hand back over yours to fight that motion. You won't always be over his hand.

 

[wab25]

For boxer, a punch is just a punch.

This is incorrect. A lot of people short change boxing.... A boxer has a lot of skill (more than most martial artists) and a lot of time spent applying his art (more than most martial artists) against resisting opponents.

A punch, as used by a boxer is:

1. A punch designed to do damage or knock out the other guy.
2. A range finder to check distance.
3. Is used to keep or make distance.
4. Is used to keep the other guy busy, while you close distance.
5. An interrupter, designed to interrupt what the other guy is doing.
6. A distractor, I punch over here to draw your attention away from what I want to do.
7. Is used to hide the next punch. (punch them in the face to block their vision, so you can land the next punch)
8. Is used as a set up. (if I punch the body, he will start to drop his guard so I can punch his face)
9. Is used to unbalance the other guy.
10. Is used to initiate a response, sometimes a specific response. (throw a lazy jab, to get the opponent to throw a cross over it, because you want to counter punch his cross)

I could go on. But a boxers punches are used to do lots of things. A good counter puncher can get his opponent off balance the way he wants to, the same as a martial artist would need a pull to accomplish.

I only train 2 moves to against a punch.

1. Toes push kick to his chest (leg is longer than arm).
2. 45 degree downward hay-maker (circular move against straight line).

The nice thing about 2 is I can establish a clinch (arm contact) after that. Also my arm will always be on top of my opponent's arm.

Another thing a boxer can use his punch for is to feint. He stands too close for you to kick, then feints the right, drawing out your 45 degree downward hay-maker, then he throws the right straight across the top of your downward hay-maker... They should have a name for such a punch... they do, its called a right cross, because it crosses over your outstretched hand.

Now, if he throws the 1, 2 first a few times, allowing you to have success with your 45 degree downward hay-makers... increasing the power each time... and then feints, there is a good chance you fall off balance trying the downward hay-maker, expecting do deal with a lot of power... now you fall straight into that right cross, or upper cut or left hook...