Kempo/Kenpo techniques

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue is if your opponent doesn't resist (such as block your punch), you can't borrow his resistance force.

What is "combo" training? IMO, combo training is you make a move, your opponent responds to it, you then respond to his respond.

A good training partner needs to provide his opponent opportunity to train "respond to respond". For example.

- You right punch at your opponent.
- He uses right upward block to block your punch.
- You use left upward block to re-block his upward block (help his upward block to move even higher).
- You then change your right punch into an upward elbow strike to his chest.

In order to train this combo, your opponent's upward block is required. Without it, your right straight punch that change into an upward elbow strike won't make sense.

That's a different kind of drill. Using one doesn't exclude the opportunity for the other. Except for the occasional swipe to give you something to duck, focus mitt work doesn't include "borrowing" from the opponent, either.

I use focus mitts sometimes, and see this drill as being similar. I also use drills where the uke (opponent) counters, and it flows to a next technique. That's not a better drill - it's a different drill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's not a better drill - it's a different drill.

Why do you think it's not a better drill? You can learn "borrow force" if your opponent blocks your punch. You can't learn that if your opponent doesn't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why do you think it's not a better drill? You can learn "borrow force" if your opponent blocks your punch. You can't learn that if your opponent doesn't.

All true. But you can't practice the same way with that that you can with focus mitts (where you actually get to punch the target over and over, sometimes with a bit of force). Each has advantages. As long as they're used appropriately, I don't see one as "better".

 

[wab25]

Why do you think it's not a better drill? You can learn "borrow force" if your opponent blocks your punch. You can't learn that if your opponent doesn't.

Some of us, speaking of myself personally, are not gifted martial artists, or even highly coordinated.

It took me quite a while to learn boxing footwork and how to connect my body and punches to that footwork. Now, I am learning Shotokan Karate. The footwork is different. The mechanics of how those connections are made are just enough different. Due to my non-giftedness in martial arts and that I originally learned footwork and body connection from another art, there are some simple Karate punches that drive me nuts... in the pat your head, rub your tummy, while standing on one foot and counting backwards, the odd numbers from 100, sort of way. Now, I am asked to do a block, that I am ok at, with a new footwork, then transition to a technique that I can barely do, by itself, while someone is punching at me, requiring me to blend with... all at the same time. First, I am going to get hit. (ask me how I know...) Second, I am not going to be able to get the combination right. Third, and most important, I will not be able to improve, no matter how many times I get hit. In fact, when I get tired of getting hit, I will start doing something else instead. Which means I will not ever be able to use this Karate approach in sparring, or any where else.

For me, it helps to work out the coordination for the combo first, so that I can do it reasonably well. Then ramp up the resistance and realism of the drills. You see some people that can punch the air properly, but put a target in front of them (focus mit) and they fall forward, and unbalance themselves trying to hit harder. You can see all kinds of people who train only hitting other people and heavy bags, that always fall into their punches, giving up their structure and balance. Having the other person hit back at them, is not going to help fix the issues with stance, balance and structure.

Maybe I am just the doofuss here, with serious coordination problems. But, learning things a bit at a time... breaking complex movements down to their simple components, certainly helps me to learn things quicker. So, for me, which drill is better: the one that gets me to do the technique properly or the one that has me do it against a realistic and resisting opponent? I need both (and a few in between) or I will never get it. (even then, I have my doubts...) They are different drills, that work on different parts. I need all the parts. Take one away, and I won't get it. But, maybe you have better students than I am... who knows.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Having the other person hit back at them, is not going to help fix the issues with stance, balance and structure.

Your opponent doesn't have to hit back. He just need to respond to your attack.

I may look at this from a "set up" point of view.

In

- wrestling art, My opponent has good balance. When I pull him and if he resists, I can borrow his resistance force, change my pulling into pushing. I need my opponent's resistance fore here to train my "pull and push".

- striking art, My opponent has strong boxing guard. When I kick his groin, he drops guard to block my kick. I can then punch his face while it's open. I need my opponent's downward block here to train my "kick low and punch high".

 

[wab25]

- striking art, My opponent has strong boxing guard. When I kick his groin, he drops guard to block my kick. I can then punch his face while it's open. I need my opponent's downward block here to train my "kick low and punch high".

Hope you don't ever have me as your student. I would first have to learn how to kick low. Then how to punch high. On top of that, I will have to practice throwing the low kick, followed by the high punch. Otherwise you will see me throw the low kick, bringing his guard down, followed by me putting my kicking foot back down, taking 3 or 4 stutter steps to reset my stance, stepping forward to get into range and finally throwing an off balance high punch that has no structure behind it. Meanwhile, the other guy brought his guard back up 5 steps ago. My conclusion: your combo sucks.

However, if you let me work on the parts, then the combo, and then with a partner... I might have a good chance at doing it correctly. My conclusion about your combo might change as well.

 

[CB Jones]

The issue is if your opponent doesn't resist (such as block your punch), you can't borrow his resistance force.

But someone doesnt always have to borrow resistance force or see the response before the next technique.

For example... my son (he is a lefty) can slip a jab, then step to the outside of his opponent lead foot and throw a reverse punch to body, right hook/overhand right to head, roundhouse kick to body and then exit. He doesnt need to borrow resistance force after each technique. He can throw that combo without looking for his opponents every response and then get back out of range.

What is "combo" training

Working specific combinations of techniques such as:

Backhand, reverse punch, front roundhouse kick

Jab, straight right, hook

Backhand, reverse punch, side kick

Etc...

 

[Buka]

Some of us, speaking of myself personally, are not gifted martial artists, or even highly coordinated.

It took me quite a while to learn boxing footwork and how to connect my body and punches to that footwork. Now, I am learning Shotokan Karate. The footwork is different. The mechanics of how those connections are made are just enough different. Due to my non-giftedness in martial arts and that I originally learned footwork and body connection from another art, there are some simple Karate punches that drive me nuts... in the pat your head, rub your tummy, while standing on one foot and counting backwards, the odd numbers from 100, sort of way. Now, I am asked to do a block, that I am ok at, with a new footwork, then transition to a technique that I can barely do, by itself, while someone is punching at me, requiring me to blend with... all at the same time. First, I am going to get hit. (ask me how I know...) Second, I am not going to be able to get the combination right. Third, and most important, I will not be able to improve, no matter how many times I get hit. In fact, when I get tired of getting hit, I will start doing something else instead. Which means I will not ever be able to use this Karate approach in sparring, or any where else.

For me, it helps to work out the coordination for the combo first, so that I can do it reasonably well. Then ramp up the resistance and realism of the drills. You see some people that can punch the air properly, but put a target in front of them (focus mit) and they fall forward, and unbalance themselves trying to hit harder. You can see all kinds of people who train only hitting other people and heavy bags, that always fall into their punches, giving up their structure and balance. Having the other person hit back at them, is not going to help fix the issues with stance, balance and structure.

Maybe I am just the doofuss here, with serious coordination problems. But, learning things a bit at a time... breaking complex movements down to their simple components, certainly helps me to learn things quicker. So, for me, which drill is better: the one that gets me to do the technique properly or the one that has me do it against a realistic and resisting opponent? I need both (and a few in between) or I will never get it. (even then, I have my doubts...) They are different drills, that work on different parts. I need all the parts. Take one away, and I won't get it. But, maybe you have better students than I am... who knows.

A lot of my students learned in exactly the way you describe. (a nice trip down memory lane)

So that's exactly how I taught them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would first have to learn how to kick low. Then how to punch high.

In the long fist system, kick low and punch high can be learned during the 1st month of training. It's in the 1st part (total 10 parts) of the Tantui form (the 1st form to learn).

 

[drop bear]

It's not much different from boxing combos on focus mitts. There's no resistance there, and you're consistently delivering several punches in a combination (sometimes with one "counter" that you have to duck).

The aim of combination punching is because they are defending.

So exactly the opposite.

 

[wab25]

In the long fist system, kick low and punch high can be learned during the 1st month of training. It's in the 1st part (total 10 parts) of the Tantui form (the 1st form to learn).

How, exactly, is this any more realistic than any of the videos you critique in this thread? In fact, this seems to be supporting the view point of learn the basics first, then the combinations, then add a partner and resistance.

 

[Buka]

In the long fist system, kick low and punch high can be learned during the 1st month of training. It's in the 1st part (total 10 parts) of the Tantui form (the 1st form to learn).

That kick and punch seem to be pretty much on the same height level to me. And what is the purpose of the other arm position, please?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your opponent doesn't have to hit back. He just need to respond to your attack.

I may look at this from a "set up" point of view.

In

- wrestling art, My opponent has good balance. When I pull him and if he resists, I can borrow his resistance force, change my pulling into pushing. I need my opponent's resistance fore here to train my "pull and push".

- striking art, My opponent has strong boxing guard. When I kick his groin, he drops guard to block my kick. I can then punch his face while it's open. I need my opponent's downward block here to train my "kick low and punch high".

I'll argue you don't need their downward block to train that punching combination. You'll need it to train the recognition of the opening, but you can train that combination on a heavy bag, focus mitts, etc. - none of which provide that downward block.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the long fist system, kick low and punch high can be learned during the 1st month of training. It's in the 1st part (total 10 parts) of the Tantui form (the 1st form to learn).

But the form doesn't have anyone providing the downward block.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The aim of combination punching is because they are defending.

So exactly the opposite.

So, you don't think someone can train combos without someone blocking? I'd argue - rather strongly - that they absolutely can. And that they can deliver some combos regardless of whether the person blocks or not, though it may change what comes after the combo. A jab that lands will often cause only a slight change in posture (of the recipient), so whether they block it or not, you may be able to follow with the same next attack.

 

[drop bear]

So, you don't think someone can train combos without someone blocking? I'd argue - rather strongly - that they absolutely can. And that they can deliver some combos regardless of whether the person blocks or not, though it may change what comes after the combo. A jab that lands will often cause only a slight change in posture (of the recipient), so whether they block it or not, you may be able to follow with the same next attack.

People can train whatever they want. Doesn't mean they are going to gain an increase in ability because of it though.

I can train pads like a dumbo. Or I can train them realistically. It isn't a case where "You do pads so it is the same"

 

[drop bear]

So, you don't think someone can train combos without someone blocking? I'd argue - rather strongly - that they absolutely can. And that they can deliver some combos regardless of whether the person blocks or not, though it may change what comes after the combo. A jab that lands will often cause only a slight change in posture (of the recipient), so whether they block it or not, you may be able to follow with the same next attack.

I don't think this.

Is teaching the same thing as this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't think this.

Is teaching the same thing as this.

That’s a demo, not a drill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People can train whatever they want. Doesn't mean they are going to gain an increase in ability because of it though.

I can train pads like a dumbo. Or I can train them realistically. It isn't a case where "You do pads so it is the same"

That doesn’t seem to be a continuation from the post I responded to.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That’s a demo, not a drill.

I presume you’re referring to the second video. The first is pretty standard Muay Thai pad training.