Kempo/Kenpo techniques

[Star Dragon]

Kempos just been one of those things, not really common where i am. (at least past someone just putting kempo in their school/style name)

I take it they are meant to do a fair amount of sparring?

i would also think it would be pretty fun to try their stick defence against a FMA person. Like reverse it kind of, try it against someone who has started with a weapon. I generally think trying any weapon defence against people who train to use it would be pretty fun.

I basically agree.

However, and just talking about Parker style Kenpo here, some people like to critisize its club defences, saying they would not work against an experienced FMA practitioner. However, those folks frequently forget to take the difference between a stick and a club into consideration.

The EPAK* system's 'storm techniques' are designed for club attacks, not for stick attacks, which would require a different approach. The former weapon being heavier and therefore less flexible in application, which means attacks with them tend to require more commitment. Perhaps think of how one would be swinging a baseball bat...

*EPAK = Ed Parker Kenpo

 

[CB Jones]

No need to change the content of the curriculum. As far as I know, altering the names by which you call things would suffice to nullify any copyright claims.

Altering the names within a copyrighted curriculum would still be copyright infringement.

 

[Headhunter]

Kempos just been one of those things, not really common where i am. (at least past someone just putting kempo in their school/style name)

I take it they are meant to do a fair amount of sparring?

i would also think it would be pretty fun to try their stick defence against a FMA person. Like reverse it kind of, try it against someone who has started with a weapon. I generally think trying any weapon defence against people who train to use it would be pretty fun.

The kenpo club techniques aren't made to fight stick fighters they're about idiots swinging a club wildly at your head. Because it's far more likely that'll happen to you than an expert stick fighter attacking you

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

They are a drill. They teach you how to flow from technique to technique ...

The issue is what technique that you are going to flow into depends on your opponent's respond. By using your approach, since your opponent does not respond, you don't know what technique to flow into.

One of my favor drill is to use downward parry on my opponent's boxing guard.

- 25% of the chance that he will resist (force against force).
- 75% of the chance that he will borrow my force and hook punch or hay-maker on my head (borrow my force).

Since I'm ready to respond to both of his responds (in training), I can be 1 step ahead of him (in fighting).

When I make 1 move, my opponent will respond with 1 move. I can then take advantage on his respond. This way I can train a much more realistic combo. I want my opponent to respond. I don't want him to freeze.

A good training partner can help me to develop good timing. It makes no sense for my training partner to act like my striking dummy.

 

[Buka]

I don't see how anyone could copyright a Martial Arts technique.

I'd love to see a judge's face if that case came before him.

 

[Star Dragon]

Which is why another word, like "drill" sounds more accurate to me.

The drills that I am familiar with tend to be shorter and more stationary than your typical Kenpo technique. Also, there is often a direct back and forth (for instance, after I have blocked your attack, my counter punch becomes the attack that in turn triggers your defence sequence).

Surely you can (and actually should) take parts of Kenpo self-defence techniques (sequences) and drill them in isolation.

Bear in mind that the SD techniques are designed as textbook examples of how various basics may be combined and applied. They are not meant as prescriptions of how to handle a given situation best, which depends on so many factors that require a more flexible approach.

Virtually every case of real-life application of a Kenpo technique I heard about included some adaptation to given circumstances.

I also don't see the problem with this. I mean, look at Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do, and Shotokan Karate forms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

They are a drill. They teach you how to flow from technique to technique ...

Here is another example. When you sweep your opponent's leading leg, he can

1. escape your sweep - bend his leg and let your sweeping leg to go under it.
2. force against force - turn his shin bone into your sweep.

Your respond to your opponent's respond will be different between 1 and 2. In other words, you don't know which technique that you will flow into. It will depend on your opponent's respond.

If I make 1 move and you freeze, how do I know which move that I should flow into?

 

[Star Dragon]

The issue is what technique that you are going to flow into depends on your opponent's respond. By using your approach, since your opponent does not respond, you don't know what technique to flow into.

One of my favor drill is to use downward parry on my opponent's boxing guard.

- 25% of the chance that he will resist (force against force).
- 75% of the chance that he will borrow my force and hook punch or hay-maker on my head (borrow my force).

Since I'm ready to respond to both of his responds (in training), I can be 1 step ahead of him (in fighting).

When I make 1 move, my opponent will respond with 1 move. I can then take advantage on his respond. This way I can train a much more realistic combo. I want my opponent to respond. I don't want him to freeze.

A good training partner can help me to develop good timing. It makes no sense for my training partner to act like my striking dummy.

Unlike a striking dummy (such as a BOB), a good training partner will mimick the effects that your moves might have on them. The sequences were designed taking the adversary's involuntary reactions into account; we call that 'body manipulation'.

After practising what we call the 'ideal phase' follows the 'what if' stage, where we explore various possible follow-ups on the adversary's side as well as other variables.

Eventually, we (hopefully) advance to the 'formulation' stage, where there are no more preset techniques, as we have learned to react to any situation effectively and spontaneously.

However, we also practise defences against combination attacks right from the onset.

 

[CB Jones]

The issue is what technique that you are going to flow into depends on your opponent's respond. By using your approach, since your opponent does not respond, you don't know what technique to flow into.

Again it's not a drill where you are working on your response to your opponent.

When you punch a heavy bag....do you hit it once and then stand there and wait for it response?

And you dont have to wait for a response from your opponent....you can throw specific combinations. You see this often in full contact fighting...specific drilled combinations.....just like hitting a bag.

For example....one combination my son likes is backhand to head...reverse punch to body...front roundhouse kick to head...and exit.

He doesnt need a que to start the next technique in the combination...it flows naturally....as one technique is retracting... the next is being thrown.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For example....one combination my son likes is backhand to head...reverse punch to body...front roundhouse kick to head...and exit.

He doesnt need a que to start the next technique in the combination...it flows naturally....as one technique is retracting... the next is being thrown.

You don't need training partner to train pre-defined drills. You can train solo and still get the same benefit such as

- jab, cross combo,
- roundhouse kick, side kick combo,
- side kick, spin back fist combo,
- ...

The benefit of partner training is your opponent can

- escape your attack so you can take advantage on his stepping back (train your chasing footwork).
- block your attack so you can take advantage on his blocking (train your grab, arm wrap, pull, ...).

For example, if your opponent blocks your punch, you can grab his blocking arm, pull his arm, you then punch with your other hand. If your opponent just freezes and doesn't evet block your punch, how can you practice your grab, pull, and ...?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

The kenpo club techniques aren't made to fight stick fighters they're about idiots swinging a club wildly at your head. Because it's far more likely that'll happen to you than an expert stick fighter attacking you

In fairness, FMA is growing more popular in some places and then we have HEMA being resurrected in some areas.Im not entirely sure how well a fencer would yield a stick or a club though, but thats been a pretty big English institution and in some European countries. Kendos pretty popular, they are the only couple of official styles i know which do weapons, other than training organizations which have weapons courses, kind of like shiv works and all those shooting places in the U.S. Or job specific training like police, security, corrections soldiers for public order duties etc.

I generally would like to learn to use weapons as part of martial training and not just focus on disarms, it gives you a appreciation for them, and a ability to use them if the person drops them or someone else gets involved etc. If you appreciate how to use it, you could develop a plan to deal with someone suing it against you better.


Kind of off topic or not really related to the point, but i think i could have beaten some of the terrible knife defence i was witness to by mimicking a "stance" i saw in a book for how to hold it.

 

[skribs]

You can train your partner drill in 2 ways:

1. Your opponent attack you, you counter.
2. You attack your opponent, he responds, you counter to his respond.

I don't like 1. But most MA schools use this approach. You throw a slow punch. I use 5 fast moves to counter it. This will make me to look fast. Also I don't like my training have to depend on "you punch first".

I prefer 2 > 1. If you attack fast and your opponent also responds fast, you have to respond fast to his fast respond. This kind of training will be closer to the combat speed. Also in this kind of training, you will never see your opponent just freezes in the air.

I find that in most situations, when you score a hit on your opponent or you grab their arm, they will freeze. It's like that MMA fighter vs. Traditional Grand Master fight, where the TMA guy does very well for the first 5 seconds of the fight, but as soon as he gets hit once the fight is over.

How it typically works for me if someone throws a slew of punches, is I'll block several punches and then as soon as I can do something to upset their combo, I have control, and they're on the defensive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can, and it's been done a bunch of time. But you would have to change anywhere from 50 to over a hundred techniques for that, while ensuring that you still have all the different principles being taught in them. It's a lot of work when there's already a full system of sets in place that teaches them.

It would be the equivalent of saying "I don't see why you can't just change all the forms slightly so you aren't using someone else's curriculum." You'd have to do it in a way that keeps all the purposes of the forms while making them not appear to be the same...why bother doing all of that just to teach what you're already teaching?

Those function as forms, from what I understand. My stance on forms is that they are useful, but not necessary. Kempo could be taught without using any of those - teaching the transitions and techniques (using the common definition, rather than the Kempo definition). It would seem to long-time practitioners as "not Kempo", because those Techniques (using the Kempo definition) are how they most easily recognize the art), but the end result would still be Kempo.

Would that be worth the effort? I don't know. I strongly considered ditching the Classical forms of the Techniques in NGA when I created my curriculum. I'm used to them, so kept them, but I did change about half of them (almost 25 of the 50) substantially enough that most NGA instructors would think it came from a different style. If the changes are driven by an effort to improve, they're likely not as difficult to make as it would seem.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, I think there tends to be a difference between “techniques” which would be the most basic such as a front kick or a knife hand, as opposed to a “self defense technique” which are these choreographed scenarios with an attacker and a defender. But the “self defense techniques” tend to get shortened to just “techniques”.

I tend to talk about Techniques (where there's a style/art-specific usage of that term) vs. techniques (the common usage of the term). Of course, in speech, we can't see whether the T is capitalized or not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your opponent throws 1 punch. You counter with 5 moves while he is still frozen in his punch. Is this realistic? In the normal situation, if you make 1 move, your opponent will respond with 1 move. When you make your 2nd move, he will respond with your 2nd move.

Unless you are 5 times faster than your opponent, this kind of training is not realistic IMO.

It's like boxing drills using focus mitts. They're training combinations and transitions, and the other guy is just serving as a target. There are situations where those combinations could occur in exactly that sequence, if the opponent moves for an attack that creates that exact opening. It's unlikely, but then any specific combination is unlikely if we look just at the statistics. But a boxer who practices jab-jab-cross-duck-uppercut doesn't need to see that exact combination. He's practicing jab-jab, jab-cross, cross-duck, and duck-uppercut...just putting them all together to work on flow. Any of those two-step combinations are more likely to happen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can train your partner drill in 2 ways:

1. Your opponent attack you, you counter.
2. You attack your opponent, he responds, you counter to his respond.

I don't like 1. But most MA schools use this approach. You throw a slow punch. I use 5 fast moves to counter it. This will make me to look fast. Also I don't like my training have to depend on "you punch first".

I prefer 2 > 1. If you attack fast and your opponent also responds fast, you have to respond fast to his fast respond. This kind of training will be closer to the combat speed. Also in this kind of training, you will never see your opponent just freezes in the air.

The problem with #1 is mostly in how people use and understand it. The heavy bag doesn't fight back, either, but we all understand the utility of that tool. If I do 5 moves in response to one from a person, they're just a more interesting heavy bag. There's only an issue if I think I should actually be able to get in those 5 moves before he responds.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I basically agree.

However, and just talking about Parker style Kenpo here, some people like to critisize its club defences, saying they would not work against an experienced FMA practitioner. However, those folks frequently forget to take the difference between a stick and a club into consideration.

The EPAK* system's 'storm techniques' are designed for club attacks, not for stick attacks, which would require a different approach. The former weapon being heavier and therefore less flexible in application, which means attacks with them tend to require more commitment. Perhaps think of how one would be swinging a baseball bat...

*EPAK = Ed Parker Kenpo

I'll even go further and say there's a distinction between learning some basic defenses that will work against a gumby with a stick, versus learning what will work against an experience stick fighter. I don't claim to teach the latter, because that takes more time than I'm willing to devote in my training and curriculum. I teach the former, and consider that sufficient. My "club defenses" cover both stick (I use rattan a lot in training) and club (I have several heavy MP batons and occasionally bring in things like baseball bats to work with).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Altering the names within a copyrighted curriculum would still be copyright infringement.

Agreed, assuming the copyright (I suppose that's what it would be, and not a patent) covers the process, not the name. In fact, the names are probably harder to copyright/trademark than the process.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue is what technique that you are going to flow into depends on your opponent's respond. By using your approach, since your opponent does not respond, you don't know what technique to flow into.

One of my favor drill is to use downward parry on my opponent's boxing guard.

- 25% of the chance that he will resist (force against force).
- 75% of the chance that he will borrow my force and hook punch or hay-maker on my head (borrow my force).

Since I'm ready to respond to both of his responds (in training), I can be 1 step ahead of him (in fighting).

When I make 1 move, my opponent will respond with 1 move. I can then take advantage on his respond. This way I can train a much more realistic combo. I want my opponent to respond. I don't want him to freeze.

A good training partner can help me to develop good timing. It makes no sense for my training partner to act like my striking dummy.

It's training muscle memory. We all do this, in every art, style, and approach I've ever seen. Some of the training simply doesn't involve responding to a partner, because we know what comes next. Any time we're training combinations, that's what we're doing. Sometimes we get the other person to provide input, but we still know what the next move is, and aren't actually responding to their movement in the drill. I agree it's preferable if we add in those inputs to give a chance to learn to recognize that pattern of movement coming at us, but think of working focus mitts - there's no real input (fighter blocking, slipping, throwing punches) to learn from there, either. Yet it works quite well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is another example. When you sweep your opponent's leading leg, he can

1. escape your sweep - bend his leg and let your sweeping leg to go under it.
2. force against force - turn his shin bone into your sweep.

Your respond to your opponent's respond will be different between 1 and 2. In other words, you don't know which technique that you will flow into. It will depend on your opponent's respond.

If I make 1 move and you freeze, how do I know which move that I should flow into?

So you practice both combinations, and others that are common. That's what drills are for.