Kata bunkai for self defense

[Brian R. VanCise]

For quite a while now we've had a plethora of threads on sparring, kata and bunkai, as it pertains to self defense and sport. I figured that it would be interesting, and hopefully productive to have a thread where practitioners of kata, who feel kata has self defense value, to discuss which kata or which parts of a particular kata they feel is relative and why? This thread is open to practitioners who feel the movements of a kata should be taken at face value as well as those who feel a kata has alternate explanations for movements. Through such discussion, my hope is that we may glean from each others experience and perhaps learn something from each other.

Thanks for participating

I'll toss out a clip for discussion but feel free to toss any other kata or bunkai drill out for discussion as well.

As noted, these are some of the opening movements to Pinan Shodan. I've seen him demonstrate the opening movements as a shoulder lock rather than the upper cut but I think this is one of the wonderful diversities of kata in that movements can demonstrate multiple applications effectively. Thus a kata is more than a one dimensional catalog. I also like how Abernethy Senei explains that the movements are a demonstration of what 'can' be done but they don't have to follow a specific sequence i.e. you can mix-n-match some of the punches. The knife hand drill I especially like as it is one that we use as well (knife hand and forearm strikes).

Okay we have had some derailment of this thread lately. I have quoted the OP and highlighted a part for everyone to read and then let's carry on with good discussion of Kata Bunkai as the OP wished! Let's try to stay on topic!

 

[ShotoNoob]

Okay we have had some derailment of this thread lately. I have quoted the OP and highlighted a part for everyone to read and then let's carry on with good discussion of Kata Bunkai as the OP wished! Let's try to stay on topic!

|
OK. In the opening sequence of Iain's 2nd Bunkai Vid, I see in what I will say is the 2nd tactic a counter-response to the Muay thai clinch which is supposed to be so problematic.
|
I never understood why the Muay Thai clinch, once put on, was so immune to counter action?
|
BTW: I absolutely hate the Naihanchi kata. I think it is one of the worst, designed kata out there for practical applications.
|
Yet rather than commiserate, Iain A. took a deeper look and either found or evolved practicality for that infighting that modern karate isn't supposed to have.

 

[Tez3]

I absolutely hate the Naihanchi kata. I think it is one of the worst, designed kata out there for practical applications

Now I like it precisely for it's practical applications! I would start a thread on it where we could discuss it amicably but you know what would happen, it would just get trashed by the anti kata brigade.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Tez3 please start a thread or discuss it's practical applications here. Anyone straying off topic will be reported. We are going to try to stay with the original posters intent as a thread for practitioners of Kata to discuss bunkai!

 

[Tez3]

Tez3 please start a thread or discuss it's practical applications here. Anyone straying off topic will be reported. We are going to try to stay with the original posters intent as a thread for practitioners of Kata to discuss bunkai!

I know Shotonoob knows Naihanchi, does anyone else? Otherwise would it be just us two discussing? If others know it I will post the Bunkai and applications I like from it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Instead of just talking about "Kata bunkai for self defense", if we talk about "form/kata for fighting", we will get people who are interesting in

- both Japanese MA and non-Japanese MA,
- both self defense and sport,
- both striking art and grappling art,
- both form/kata lovers and form/kata haters,
- ...

to participate into our discussion. We will then have much wider range of opinions to "compare". IMO, that's a good thing.

 

[Tez3]

Instead of just talking about "Kata bunkai for self defense", if we talk about "form/kata for fighting", we will get people who are interesting in

- both Japanese MA and non-Japanese MA,
- both self defense and sport,
- both striking art and grappling art,
- both form/kata lovers and form/kata haters,
- ...

to participate into our discussion. We will then have much wider range of opinions to "compare". IMO, that's a good thing.

Karate is designed for self defence though not fighting. The whole point of it is self defence for unarmed civilians so you won't get a discussion of it's uses for 'fighting'.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Karate is designed for self defence though not fighting. The whole point of it is self defence for unarmed civilians so you won't get a discussion of it's uses for 'fighting'.

I assume when you say, "self-defense", you are talking about when someone attacks you and you respond to it. How about when someone attacks your love one, you have to "attack" that person in order to save your love one's life? Will you call that "self-defense" as well as "fighting"?

 

[Tez3]

I assume when you say, "self-defense", you are talking about when someone attacks you and you respond to it. How about when someone attacks your love one, you have to "attack" that person in order to save your love one's life? Will you call that "self-defense" as well as "fighting"?

Yes, that is self defence as well. It's also considered as such under British law, if under threat of your or your loved ones life a pre-emptive strike is considered self defence.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I assume when you say, "self-defense", you are talking about when someone attacks you and you respond to it. How about when someone attacks your love one, you have to "attack" that person in order to save your love one's life? Will you call that "self-defense" as well as "fighting"?

I'm pretty sure most people and most cultures around the world will consider that self-defense, not an attack.
In the US, I'm willing to bet that most (if not virtually all) areas consider defense of oneself or others as being essentially the same thing, in the eyes of the law.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Now I like it precisely for it's practical applications! I would start a thread on it where we could discuss it amicably but you know what would happen, it would just get trashed by the anti kata brigade.

|
Well, that's beyond my purview.
|
My personal feeling is that bunkai study is for advanced practitioners. I don't agree, traditional karate wise, that bunkai can be separated from kata. Bunkai to me is an extension of kata, a layering on of examples of application, and more importantly the principles for same.
|
For discussion purposes, I can see why some would advocate for separating the topics of kata / bunkai for discussion. However, this disambiguation then runs of the risk of looking @ bunkai at sets of physical technique alone, which is not the context or more importantly the way to develop traditional karate skill at bunkai.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I know Shotonoob knows Naihanchi, does anyone else? Otherwise would it be just us two discussing? If others know it I will post the Bunkai and applications I like from it.

|
Fire away. My interest to-date in Naihanchi is only the fact that it is required in the curriculum. I am concentrating on the Heian kata, with some exception.
|
The Iain A. video I'm looking at near the OP. At my level, I'm looking at simple lessons such as the use of elbow strikes, since same are seldom seen in free sparring convention. Kata is a way to be sure one is approaching the traditional karate curriculum from a broader perspective....
|
In that video, Iain A makes plain the use of elbows.... with infighting application.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

For quite a while now we've had a plethora of threads on sparring, kata and bunkai, as it pertains to self defense and sport. I figured that it would be interesting, and hopefully productive to have a thread where practitioners of kata, who feel kata has self defense value, to discuss which kata or which parts of a particular kata they feel is relative and why? This thread is open to practitioners who feel the movements of a kata should be taken at face value as well as those who feel a kata has alternate explanations for movements. Through such discussion, my hope is that we may glean from each others experience and perhaps learn something from each other.

Thanks for participating

I'll toss out a clip for discussion but feel free to toss any other kata or bunkai drill out for discussion as well.

As noted, these are some of the opening movements to Pinan Shodan. I've seen him demonstrate the opening movements as a shoulder lock rather than the upper cut but I think this is one of the wonderful diversities of kata in that movements can demonstrate multiple applications effectively. Thus a kata is more than a one dimensional catalog. I also like how Abernethy Senei explains that the movements are a demonstration of what 'can' be done but they don't have to follow a specific sequence i.e. you can mix-n-match some of the punches. The knife hand drill I especially like as it is one that we use as well (knife hand and forearm strikes).

Kung Fu Wang let's keep the discussion in thread on topic of what the OP wished. Thank you....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Kung Fu Wang let's keep the discussion in thread on topic of what the OP wished. Thank you....

|
I clicked your link. Now see how I missed you thrust here.....

 

[TimoS]

My personal feeling is that bunkai study is for advanced practitioners.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, but my opinion is that the bunkai/applications/whatever you want to call them should be taught from the beginning. It makes the kata easier to remember.

Bunkai to me is an extension of kata, a layering on of examples of application, and more importantly the principles for same.
|

Kind of, yes, although to me it isn't so much an extension, rather it is an integral part of kata, without which you're just left with an empty shell, an "ugly dance"

 

[ShotoNoob]

Not quite sure what you mean by that, but my opinion is that the bunkai/applications/whatever you want to call them should be taught from the beginning. It makes the kata easier to remember.

Kind of, yes, although to me it isn't so much an extension, rather it is an integral part of kata, without which you're just left with an empty shell, an "ugly dance"

|
Yes well both interpretations are legitimate, yours & mine. My approach recognizes the essence of traditional karate in how one internally trains the overt exercises.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, but my opinion is that the bunkai/applications/whatever you want to call them should be taught from the beginning. It makes the kata easier to remember.

Kind of, yes, although to me it isn't so much an extension, rather it is an integral part of kata, without which you're just left with an empty shell, an "ugly dance"

|
Yes, the 'dance' moniker gets repeated over & over. Kata as a whole has virtually nothing in common with dancing. Kata with no overt bunkai has virtually nothing in common with dancing.
|
The absolute failure of the heavies here to recognize that moral in my 'little debbie' post confirms how little & how few understand kata.... I'm not surprised that post was ridiculed....
|
The conventional kata-dance monkier...Good luck with that....

 

[Tez3]

The word kata is used in Japan not just for martial arts but also other arts including dance. It's not specific to martial arts. Martial arts kata isn't dancing though. An interesting article on kata.
FightingArts.com - Creativity Bound Flow The Concept of Shu-Ha-Ri In Kata

 

[DaveB]

For quite a while now we've had a plethora of threads on sparring, kata and bunkai, as it pertains to self defense and sport. I figured that it would be interesting, and hopefully productive to have a thread where practitioners of kata, who feel kata has self defense value, to discuss which kata or which parts of a particular kata they feel is relative and why? This thread is open to practitioners who feel the movements of a kata should be taken at face value as well as those who feel a kata has alternate explanations for movements. Through such discussion, my hope is that we may glean from each others experience and perhaps learn something from each other.

Thanks for participating

I'll toss out a clip for discussion but feel free to toss any other kata or bunkai drill out for discussion as well.

As noted, these are some of the opening movements to Pinan Shodan. I've seen him demonstrate the opening movements as a shoulder lock rather than the upper cut but I think this is one of the wonderful diversities of kata in that movements can demonstrate multiple applications effectively. Thus a kata is more than a one dimensional catalog. I also like how Abernethy Senei explains that the movements are a demonstration of what 'can' be done but they don't have to follow a specific sequence i.e. you can mix-n-match some of the punches. The knife hand drill I especially like as it is one that we use as well (knife hand and forearm strikes).

Hello all.

Perhaps a slightly controversial view for my first contribution, but this is one of my least favourite applications of Iain Abernethy.

The problem is that I think he is shoe-horning this form to fit a faulty theory, namely that kata series present a progression from simple to advanced self defense methods.

My own observation is that rather than a simple first kata, karate sets begin with a Hub or System kata that describes the key elements of the fighting method. This is usually at least as complex as the following forms, which act as supplements to show variations and expansions on the theme of the primary form.

That said, Iain's method works for Iain. It let's him teach what he sees as foundational, in this case clearing limbs and the coordination that this requires.

My favoured application and the basic lesson I think this sequence is trying to get across is actually a modified flinch and body shift, then using the space you've gained to recover the initiative through a counter strike and using footwork to press the advantage.

I think that evasive footwork and manipulation of distance is a key element of the Hiean/Pinan fighting method.