Kata bunkai for self defense

[drop bear]

There's nothing in what you have quoted that says kata is 'perfect' or that anyone thinks it is. I'd say that changing a kata because you can't make it work is not the answer, rather you should study/practice/think at it until it does work, that's far from being perfect, that is working rather than having everything handed to you on a plate.
Bunkai does mean having to work, no one values something that is easy and cheap.

You are not reading the posts. Nobody changes the kata.

You need to read back and get a bit of reference to what I am writing. And stop projecting.

The bunkai is changed to adapt.

 

[Tez3]

You are not reading the posts. Nobody changes the kata.

You need to read back and get a bit of reference to what I am writing. And stop projecting.

The bunkai is changed to adapt.

You know you write a lot of very weird things. 'Projecting'... which one of this meanings were you trying to convey?
proj·ect
(prŏj′ĕkt′, -ĭkt)
n.
1. An undertaking requiring concerted effort: a community cleanup project; a government-funded irrigation project.
2. An extensive task undertaken by a student or group of students to apply, illustrate, or supplement classroom lessons.
3. A plan or proposal for accomplishing something. See Synonyms at plan.
4. also projects A housing project.
v. pro·ject (prə-jĕkt′) pro·ject·ed, pro·ject·ing, pro·jects
v.tr.
1. To thrust outward or forward: project one's jaw in defiance.
2. To throw forward; hurl: project an arrow.
3. To send out into space; cast: project a light beam.
4. To cause (an image) to appear on a surface by the controlled direction of light: projected the slide onto a screen.
5. Mathematics To produce (a projection).
6. To direct (one's voice) so as to be heard clearly at a distance.
7. Psychology To externalize and attribute (an emotion or motive, for example) unconsciously to someone or something else in order to avoid anxiety.
8. To convey an impression of to an audience or to others: a posture that projects defeat.
9. To form a plan or intention for: project a new business enterprise.
10. To calculate, estimate, or predict (something in the future), based on present data or trends: projecting next year's expenses.
v.intr.
1. To extend forward or out; jut out: beams that project beyond the eaves. See Synonyms at bulge.
2. To direct one's voice so as to be heard clearly at a distance.

 

[RTKDCMB]

How about I did answer the question.

Your statement was;

Karate does seem to have this kata is perfect nonsense though..

I asked you to point to where kata was described as being perfect.

You quoted this as your answer;

Ok. Please explain how this is an imperfect or mouldable idea.

I disagree totally. If you have to change the kata you haven't understood the kata. To change the kata you need far more understanding than most people will ever achieve. I have neither the time nor the understanding to either create a new kata or even modify the ones I have.

This answer does not describe kata as being perfect, it only describes kata as being hard to understand.

Try again.

 

[drop bear]

ROFLMAO. Luckily in my style our founder didn't depart this life until 1982 so we do have a very good understanding of our katas. We even have videos of him doing the katas as well as plenty of his students and instructors still around.
I think you have a very strange idea of what kata is. Either that or as I said you just like stirring.

Not at all. Kata is basically a moving syllabus you take that and use it as a foundation for the rest of your stuff.

That people are making up kata is the more versatile option.

There was also an issue as to if fighting itself has changed. And so again kata would need to be fluid rather than static.

That was where the discussion was before you jumped in with the false accusations of trolling and style bashing.

So if your kata is essentially a new idea. Then at least someone has had the same thought as me on this.

Otherwise it is as kung fu wang put it. A copy of a copy.

The issue with understanding kata without being able to talk to the guy who made it up is that you can attribute anything to it. It becomes like understanding modern art. And how people can look at a line drawn on a wall and decide it represents the powerlessness of the common man or something.

Which seems to be a lot of pretentious making stuff up.

 

[drop bear]

Psychology To externalize and attribute (an emotion or motive, for example) unconsciously to someone or something else in order to avoid anxiety.
8

Supposed to be that one.

 

[drop bear]

Your statement was;



I asked you to point to where kata was described as being perfect.

You quoted this as your answer;





This answer does not describe kata as being perfect, it only describes kata as being hard to understand.

Try again.

I disagree. As it is an argument for nobody changing kata.

 

[Steve]

The issue with understanding kata without being able to talk to the guy who made it up is that you can attribute anything to it. It becomes like understanding modern art. And how people can look at a line drawn on a wall and decide it represents the powerlessness of the common man or something.

Which seems to be a lot of pretentious making stuff up.

I generally agree with you and your opinions on kata, but I don't see this. Modern art.. art in general, really... puts some of the responsibility on the viewer. There are elements within art that are not subjective. Taste can be personal and subjective, but when you look at a painting of a line on an otherwise blank canvas, it matters where the line is, how the line is drawn, how thick or long that line is. What color is the line? What color is the background? All of these things have an effect. Tension, balance, contrast, color temperature. These are things that are all able to be identified consistently and objectively. In order to appreciate those things, one must learn to see them, and also understand what they mean.

The interpretations of these elements, coupled with some knowledge of the artist's intent behind them, can lead to interpretations such as, "the powerlessness of the common man." In some cases, without knowing the context of the art piece, you will miss things like irony, which could be very important to the piece.

The same principles apply to all art, including commercial art. Graphic designers are skilled at using objective, consistent principles to create designs that evoke emotions or feelings. Tension, for example, is often about where objects are placed on a page, how closely they are together. How close they are to the edge of a page. Sometimes, a designer will create a sense of unease on purpose.

In the same way, I believe, the proponents of kata would say that the onus of understanding the kata is on the practitioner, but that the value is objective, repeatable and consistent.

 

[Tez3]

Supposed to be that one.

Ok, so you're assuming I'm anxious, you are funny, you know.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I disagree. As it is an argument for nobody changing kata.

Which is a far cry from saying it is perfect. Try again.

 

[Steve]

Ok, so you're assuming I'm anxious, you are funny, you know.

I think only the freedictionary.com site you used includes the bit about anxiety. Kind of sneaky of you, I think.

Oxford: (project something onto)
transfer or attribute one's own emotion or desire to (another person), especially unconsciously:
"men may sometimes project their own fears onto women"

Merriam Webster: to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects

Cambridge: to wrongly imagine that someone else is feeling a particular emotion or desire when in fact it is you who feels this way:

 

[Tez3]

Which is a far cry from saying it is perfect. Try again.

I don't think you will get an answer because dropbear doesn't know or want to know what kata actually is, so we will just get more of his obfuscation. I do admire though his ability to not mind showing his ignorance of the subject though, it's a bravura performance showing how to argue about something you don't understand.

 

[drop bear]

Which is a far cry from saying it is perfect. Try again.

No it isn't.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think you will get an answer because dropbear doesn't know or want to know what kata actually is, so we will just get more of his obfuscation. I do admire though his ability to not mind showing his ignorance of the subject though, it's a bravura performance showing how to argue about something you don't understand.

Ad hominem.

 

[drop bear]

I generally agree with you and your opinions on kata, but I don't see this. Modern art.. art in general, really... puts some of the responsibility on the viewer. There are elements within art that are not subjective. Taste can be personal and subjective, but when you look at a painting of a line on an otherwise blank canvas, it matters where the line is, how the line is drawn, how thick or long that line is. What color is the line? What color is the background? All of these things have an effect. Tension, balance, contrast, color temperature. These are things that are all able to be identified consistently and objectively. In order to appreciate those things, one must learn to see them, and also understand what they mean.

The interpretations of these elements, coupled with some knowledge of the artist's intent behind them, can lead to interpretations such as, "the powerlessness of the common man." In some cases, without knowing the context of the art piece, you will miss things like irony, which could be very important to the piece.

The same principles apply to all art, including commercial art. Graphic designers are skilled at using objective, consistent principles to create designs that evoke emotions or feelings. Tension, for example, is often about where objects are placed on a page, how closely they are together. How close they are to the edge of a page. Sometimes, a designer will create a sense of unease on purpose.

In the same way, I believe, the proponents of kata would say that the onus of understanding the kata is on the practitioner, but that the value is objective, repeatable and consistent.

Done right. And you have a point. But there seems to be a degree of attributing more depth and mysticism to kata than it potentially warrants. And well that is on the viewer. People can create depth out of anything.

It seems a romantic notion that there is a master who is so clever he has invented this key to fighting and all we have to do is figure it out. But it really is more likely he just drew a line on a page.

 

[TimoS]

Does anyone have anything NEW to say on this topic? It has degenerated into a shouting match

 

[Tez3]

Ad hominem.

Actually I was admiring you, it's a compliment.

 

[Tez3]

Does anyone have anything NEW to say on this topic? It has degenerated into a shouting match

Sadly it always ends up this way, so much so it is driving posters away.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Does anyone have anything NEW to say on this topic?

Instead of discussion "kata changing", how about let's discuss the idea of "kata creation"?

The follow from/kata (Xing Jing Chuan) was created by XingYi GM 刘二彪 Liu Er-Biao around 1910. It was created as a "self-training form/kata". But it has been passed down for more than 3 generations already. If you watch this form, you will find out that the 2nd half of the form is identical to the 1st half of the form.

Just throw out some ideas here for discussion:

- Will you call this traditional form, or modern self-created form?
- Why did the original form creator created the form by repeating the same sequence twice?
- Also instead of repeating the same form twice, why not just make the 2nd half of the form to be the reverse side (switch right side into left side) of the 1st half of the form?
- If someone 2 generations above us (100 years ago) can create form/kata, why can't we? also why can't people in the future generation create new form/kata as well?
- If you say that you may not be qualified to "create form/kata" today, will you say that you may be qualified in the future some day?

This form/kata is performed by a 1st generation.

This form/kata is performed by a 3rd generation.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think he does a good job of explaining applications in this video as well....

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I haven't reviewed this vid in detail here (originally POST #2).
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First off, I consider these applications of traditional karate ADVANCED TECHNIQUES.
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Also though 1st off the bat, and this applies to the 'Anti-grappling' Thread, the author dispels the notion that somehow traditional karate is some kind of kickboxing endeavor. The author makes quite plain here that traditional karate curriculum contains a heavy dose of infighting tactics....
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Hate to upset the apple cart of all those who maintain karate in actual kumite practice is right cross off jab, left hook.... mixed in with a lot of evasive boxing footwork....
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Vid is a great eye opener for the serious karate practitioner.....

 

[RTKDCMB]

No it isn't.

So not changing something means its perfect? Good to know.