How to understand a kata

[Makalakumu]

I have never seen kata designed for use as in; "some kata are actually designed to be performed with weight training implements!" Where did you find those?

I have spent the past ten years pretty much studying kata full time and my understanding is about as far away from your explanation as it could go. What you have described is exactly the training the early guys did but that training is nothing to do with kata IMHO. Maybe that's a little harsh because you do say that it leads up to being taught the kata but I have seen nothing to suggest "they were given a single person exercise that helped them remember everything they were told." No kata contains everything and these guys generally only learned one or two kata. They spent many years on each one, maybe a lifetime of training.
:asian:

I'm not sure I understand your point here. For myself, the teaching method I have described was very different from the way I initially trained when I started karate. We were given moves from the kata and these were called basics. They had the names low block, high block, front punch, etc. Then, we were given the kata and we practiced it without training any of the applications. After this, we worked on one steps that took some of the basic moves they called basics and strung them together in very zen like responses to lunging front punches. Then, we learned the tournament sparring that we were going to utilize at the next competition. Kata were trained for the competition as well. Anyway, this method was utilized in both the Japanese and Korean karate dojos I trained with.

After subsequent research and training with various Okinawan practitioners on the island, I've come to recognize that what I described above was the actual way karate used to be passed on before it became a modern art. If you read Shoshin Nagamine's book, Tales of the Okinawan Masters, he explicitly relays the training methodology utilized by the masters or founded many of the modern ryu. A number of other masters in their writings corroborate this.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tales-of-okinawas-great-masters-shoshin-nagamine/1002850947

Perhaps you could describe how you were trained and compare it directly to what I described.

 

[K-man]

That is not evidence that Sanchin was designed to be performed with weight training implements. The fact that that student is performing the steps of Sanchin while carrying the jars is just their method of training. Even the intensive testing that is demonstrated in this clip is not in most Okinawan Sanchin testing.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. For myself, the teaching method I have described was very different from the way I initially trained when I started karate. We were given moves from the kata and these were called basics. They had the names low block, high block, front punch, etc.

Exactly the same for me, although we were never given 'basics' from kata and in your post above you spoke of 'basics and conditioning ... etc". You didn't mention taking basics from kata. We just had the basic moves which comprise kihon. So like you what I first learned is very different to the way we train now.

Then, we were given the kata and we practiced it without training any of the applications.

Again, same, same. That was the Japanese way. Back in the early days of Western karate we had no idea of how kata could be used. We trained it for grading and competition and the more kata you 'knew' (could perform) the better or more advanced you were.

After this, we worked on one steps that took some of the basic moves they called basics and strung them together in very zen like responses to lunging front punches. Then, we learned the tournament sparring that we were going to utilize at the next competition.

Again typical of the Japanese way of training. A lot of those techniques and moves were designed to improve your competitive sparring. When I swapped to the Okinawan style I threw all those out.

Kata were trained for the competition as well. Anyway, this method was utilized in both the Japanese and Korean karate dojos I trained with.

Exactly because the Korean came from Shotokan.

After subsequent research and training with various Okinawan practitioners on the island, I've come to recognize that what I described above was the actual way karate used to be passed on before it became a modern art.

And again that is right. The training was as you described apart from the reference to kata that I believe is totally wrong. I have seen people modify kata to perform with weapons but this was existing kata. That is not to say there is no specific kata to train weapons, there is, but not in Okinawan Goju for example.


Then you wrote; "Then, the teacher would provide the students with opportunities to improvise on these concepts against partners who would resist to varying degrees, letting the students see what worked and what didn't, allowing them to go back to training in techniques/concepts that needed improvement. Finally, the student would be taught the kata. When the teacher felt that the student had a good understanding of all the movements and techniques, they were given a single person exercise that helped them remember everything they were told."

That is contra to anything I have seen, hence my request for evidence.

If you read Shoshin Nagamine's book, Tales of the Okinawan Masters, he explicitly relays the training methodology utilized by the masters or founded many of the modern ryu. A number of other masters in their writings corroborate this.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tales-of-okinawas-great-masters-shoshin-nagamine/1002850947

Perhaps you could describe how you were trained and compare it directly to what I described.

If I could start out specifically with Sanchin. Sanchin teaches a lot of things and incorporates all the principles of Goju. Despite that it actually contains very few techniques. Probably only six or seven, yet this was a kata that was trained for years. If you read what you wrote and apply that to Sanchin it just doesn't make sense. Perhaps we could look at the origin of Sanchin ...

http://www.traditionalfightingarts.com/karate_sanchin.htm

As it is performed in Okinawa it came from China and was just part of another kata. Whether it was White Crane or another is open for discussion, but suffice to say it must have been reasonably widely practised for both Higaonna and Uechi to bring it back from Fuzhou, and it must have contained incredible teaching value for it to have the elevated respect among the other kata that it has been afforded and the position maintained in our training.

But let us leave Sanchin and Tensho out of the discussion for the moment as they are heishugata.

As you specifically quoted Nagamine I will move to the Gekisai kata that where developed by Miyagi from the Fukyugata that he developed with Nagamine. These were developed to teach beginners but I think they are brilliantly crafted, illustrating that Miyagi and Nagamine had profound knowledge of kata. Taught to beginners at that level they seem like just simple moves to help the beginners get a feel for kata. Underneath, I think these kata are every bit as good as the other kata brought across from China. The applications are just brilliant.

So let's look at your hypothesis. The students have been learning basics, they've paired up and trained drills, they might have seen what worked and what didn't, although I would query whether anything they were taught didn't work, then eventually they were given the kata to remind them of what they had learned.

So Gekisai Ich, if we just count one side, contains about 10 or 12 techniques. Hardly a lexicon! Yet those techniques, as performed in the kata, contain some amazing fighting sequences, if someone knows them to teach or can decipher them. Because the kata were designed to teach kids I doubt very many people have ever taken the time to look at the kata that way. But in the traditional dojo, not the schools and universities, the guys there would have recognised the masterpiece that Miyagi and Nagamine had crafted. Could your hypothesis apply? Certainly ... in theory. But in practice, if people had been taught that way the knowledge would have been passed down because those kata were taught to hundreds of thousands of people. It would have been impossible to keep the content of the kata secret ... unless the content was never taught.

We can then look at the other Goju kata ... Saifa, Seiunchin, Shisoshin etc up to Suparenpei. These are incredibly complex fighting systems with applications on several levels from the seemingly obvious to the lethal combinations. They were never taught in the way you described. Sure, some teachers may have taken one or two combinations from kata to act as drills but that is the exception. Now there are a handful of people teaching kata at a higher level and those guys are rarer and more valuable than diamonds.
:asian:

 

[seasoned]

Katas are interesting in the traditional arts. If you take a look at an art like "American Kenpo", many of the forms are based on their self-defense techniques so you know exactly what the move is supposed to do. On the other hand, traditional karate kata are what is called a "Mnuemonic Device". Which is something that helps remind us of deeper information or something that helps us to recall information. For example, "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally" that is taught to school children to help them remember the order of operations in basic math (parentheses, exponents, multiply/divide, add/subtract). If you were JUST taught that phrase and not taught the other stuff, it wouldn't mean a whole lot. Then future generations from now, you might have theories on how that phrase is used to teach basic manners!

Before the advent of putting pictures/drawings into books, the motions of kata didn't have names (or they were given poetic names like in the chinese arts--White Ape Steals the Peach). Once you put a name on the motion, it becomes that motion. So if I call it an "inward block", I now look at it through the lense of an inward block, when the intent could also be a hammerfist to the jaw, or used in conjunction of the chambering hand as an arm break. Those are just a couple of examples, but the idea was the motion was the same for all those applications so you had a way to manage the information you knew.

This is also why it is a VERY bad idea to change the moves of a kata to fit a specific application. The moves aren't intended for just one purpose and when you change it for that application, you are losing the other information.

Lastly, I will add that katas teach concepts of body motion and aren't ALWAYS a direct application or it will teach you the hardest way to do it so the other ways are easier.

First I think you have to look to the source which is thought to have been White Crane Boxing from Fujian Province in Southern China where a number of Okinawan masters spent years learning the local fighting systems. Bushi Matsumura was one of the first to visit China and bring back knowledge that would be the basis for his system. Among his students, Anko Asato, Anko Itosu, Motobu Choki, Nabe Matsumura and Chotoku Kyan.

Aragaki was another and when you look at his most famous students it reads like 'Who's Who'. Among them men famous for developing the major Okinawan styles, Funakoshi Gichin, Higaonna Kanryo, Uechi Kanbun, and Mabuni Kenwa. So it is easy to understand how it is common across the karate spectrum.

Some of these guys, like Higaonna Kanryo and Uechi Kanbun, also went to China to further their study, so they would also have seen the form at its source.

In those days it seems the master would teach the kata in slightly different ways depending on the physical attributes of the student. Whether that came with different applications we will never know. But, if all these guys went away with a slightly different variation it is easy to see how the variation has occurred. But the most likely driver of change is when they stopped teaching the applications. Now anyone could vary the kata to suit themselves and no one is the wiser. Schoolboy karate as it was introduced into schools and universities and hence into the community could be anything.

In some ways it doesn't matter if it has changed and in others I would really like to know the original form. If your idea of kata is how you perform it in competition it doesn't matter at all. If you are trying to use it as a fighting system then it is more difficult, a bit like a back office Baffin sending out the wrong calibre ammunition to the battlefield. You waste time trying to work out why the gun doesn't work.

So, we have to work with what we have and try to use our knowledge of techniques to unravel the secrets of the kata we are studying, regardless of the variations. I haven't tried it, but, it might be possible to look across the spectrum at the differences to help with our understanding. :asian:

Instead of being a product of the way we were taught, we all should evolve from the way we were taught to a position of understanding. Masters of old all cross trained, but the newer dojo that I was involved with, in the beginning, frowned on it.
Looking over the thread above I highlighted (2) statements that jumped out for me. This is where my training years have taken me. We could say full circle, but the saying always was, "go back to the basics".
As was stated, "go back to the origin, and don't change the moves, and absorb the principles of sanchin, "breath, movement and structure" and the kata WILL talk to you...........

 

[Makalakumu]

That is not evidence that Sanchin was designed to be performed with weight training implements. The fact that that student is performing the steps of Sanchin while carrying the jars is just their method of training. Even the intensive testing that is demonstrated in this clip is not in most Okinawan Sanchin testing.
:asian:

Here is an interesting article on the subject. I love the way Miyagi Sensei organized the Goju curriculum with weight training in mind. I think this practice has probably fallen out of practice in most goju dojos. It certainly has in Hawaii. I would be training at a Goju dojo that had all of these implements displayed and were regularly put into use. I find this type of training interesting.

Anyway, I have to say how impressed I am by the elegance of this system. I wish more karate systems would have preserved this aspect of their training.

http://www.portaskarate.org/weights.html

Training with traditional Okinawan resistance devices is not like body building or weight lifting in the purest sense, as the working muscles are not "pumped up" to a degree where they become instantly larger; nor is the concentration on lifting the maximum amount of weight for a single repetition. Instead, Master Miyagi's methodology takes advantage of working at a slow, deliberate pace for each repetition; and the weight being used is kept under control at all times without any sudden movements, "jerking," or extra, forced contractions designed to increase muscle size. Stated simply, "strength" refers to the amount of tension a muscle can apply when contracting; and keeping movements at a slow, controlled, even rate optimizes the potential for a muscle group to exert the strongest contraction when called upon to do so. In Master Miyagi's style of exercise, the use of progressively heavier weights will increase the size and number of muscle fibers that can be recruited when per forming a certain movement, which is similar to other methods of resistance training; however, the main emphasis for the Okinawan method is to supplement the techniques within the martial arts system by making them more powerful and explosive.


Traditional Okinawan Goju-Ryu karate students must learn to balance their training sessions to include stretching, supplementary resistance work, and the performance of kata in a manner where the body remains strong, flexible, and in a position of readiness to react quickly and explosively when necessary. Reaction time concerns the interval between the recognition of a stimulus and the consequent start of the movement that takes place with regard to the stimulus. The dedicated practicing of kata and bunkai (practical applications of kata) teaches the student to react in a corresponding manner to a threat or lack thereof, and supplementary resistance training enhances the techniques by making the movements faster and more powerful.

Further down in the article, they describe the actual techniques used to train. As you can see, these training techniques directly correspond to the techniques in the kata and their related bunkai. That is awesome!

There is no doubt that other karate systems trained in similar ways. Check out this photo.

 

[teekin]

Thank you all who gave me a place to at least start. I did read the whole thread but did not run down all the references and did not look for previous threads. I am trying to avoid going down blind alleys. There is SO much information presented in just this thread that I don't know what to concentrate on, where the beginning is.
I will try Ian Abernathy. See how hard it is to get a solid concrete answer? I just don't get it. I know why I do speed drills, I know why I do turn in drills, I know why I do flow drills, I know why I do the sparring kata, even katana kata I get ( adore, adore, adore). What is the big secret of basic sanchin kata that it can't be explained in two sentances?

As I learned dressage and taught it I found it did not become more complex to explain. It distills down to a few very simple principals that are Brutally hard to execute but can be explained in a few sentances. The more intimately I Know my subject the simpler it is to explain. Be it dressage or the Reformation.

 

[Makalakumu]

It would have been impossible to keep the content of the kata secret ... unless the content was never taught.:asian:

Charles Goodin is a high ranking Okinawan Karate practitioner here in Hawaii and he is responsible for assembling perhaps the largest library of karate rare books and publications in the world. Here is an article that he wrote about how the old style art of karate, complete with knowledge of the bunkai, was transformed in the modern art we see today.

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html

I think the important part to understand is that almost everyone living today learned the modern way of practicing karate. The old masters talked about how they were trained, but early on they formed a gentlemen's agreement to not teach the applications or to adopt the "modern" way of teaching the art.

Here is an entire thread dedicated to this subject where we discussed this a while back. Why does the "modern" style look so different from the "old" style.

[URL]http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/70368-On-the-removal-of-grappling-from-Shotokan/page2

Well, in Gennosuke Higaki's Hidden Karate: the True Bunkai for the Heian Katas and Naihanchi, he indicates that the Okinawan expats had a gentleman's agreement not to teach the serious, combat-ready applications to the Japanese, though GF slipped up a bit and taught some forbidden stuff to Shozan Kubota and maybe a couple of his other very high ranking students.

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Karate-Bunkai-Heian-Naihanchi/dp/4902481960[/URL]

 

[K-man]

Here is an interesting article on the subject. I love the way Miyagi Sensei organized the Goju curriculum with weight training in mind. I think this practice has probably fallen out of practice in most goju dojos. It certainly has in Hawaii. I would be training at a Goju dojo that had all of these implements displayed and were regularly put into use. I find this type of training interesting.

Anyway, I have to say how impressed I am by the elegance of this system. I wish more karate systems would have preserved this aspect of their training.

If you train at the Jundokan all those pieces of equipment are available. Same at Hokama Sensei's dojo and, I suspect, all the others. The fact that we have more sophisticated equipment available means we have often discarded the original for something new because we did not understand the reason for the original training. If you practise karate the way 99.9% of people do, there is no need for Chishi. Chishi is for developing your core. Exactly the same with Sanchin. Sanchin not only strengthens your core but is a big part of developing your Ki and the fact that so many people deny the existence of Ki means they have no true understanding of Sanchin kata. In your karate does not include the grappling then you are not practising karate the way it was before it went into the schools and was sanitised.

http://www.portaskarate.org/weights.html

Further down in the article, they describe the actual techniques used to train. As you can see, these training techniques directly correspond to the techniques in the kata and their related bunkai. That is awesome!

Perhaps you could point out the part that says this. I read it twice and find the nearest to be:

Traditional Okinawan Goju-Ryu karate students must learn to balance their training sessions to include stretching, supplementary resistance work, and the performance of kata in a manner where the body remains strong, flexible, and in a position of readiness to react quickly and explosively when necessary. Reaction time concerns the interval between the recognition of a stimulus and the consequent start of the movement that takes place with regard to the stimulus. The dedicated practicing of kata and bunkai (practical applications of kata) teaches the student to react in a corresponding manner to a threat or lack thereof,

and

supplementary resistance training enhances the techniques by making the movements faster and more powerful.

These are two totally separate things. Supplementary training is totally separate to the kata and bunkai.

There is no doubt that other karate systems trained in similar ways. Check out this photo.

Charles Goodin is a high ranking Okinawan Karate practitioner here in Hawaii and he is responsible for assembling perhaps the largest library of karate rare books and publications in the world. Here is an article that he wrote about how the old style art of karate, complete with knowledge of the bunkai, was transformed in the modern art we see today.

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html

I think the important part to understand is that almost everyone living today learned the modern way of practicing karate. The old masters talked about how they were trained, but early on they formed a gentlemen's agreement to not teach the applications or to adopt the "modern" way of teaching the art.

Here is an entire thread dedicated to this subject where we discussed this a while back. Why does the "modern" style look so different from the "old" style.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-the-removal-of-grappling-from-Shotokan/page2



http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Karate-Bunkai-Heian-Naihanchi/dp/4902481960

Great articles and they describe pretty much how we train.

It should not be surprising that private students (those who trained at the teacher's house or even at the family tomb) and public students (those who generally trained at schools) would be taught differently. Now take this forward a few generations. Soon, whole generations of students would learn Karate without studying applications -- and then they would become the teachers!

Once the movements of a kata are identified as specific techniques, the meanings become fixed. A "block" has a certain meaning, as does a "punch." A stance has a certain configuration and weight distribution. A dynamic process is reduced to a series of still photographs.

How the teacher performed the kata often depended on who was watching. This is not mere speculation. Many movements in kata -- the ones we have today -- are the watered down, public versions. Take the Pinan kata, for example. These kata were specifically designed or altered from earlier kata for public consumption. The same is true of Fukyugata Ichi. Even older kata were sanitized. Open hand techniques were replaced with punches. Toe kicks were replaced with kicks using the ball of the foot.


Assume for a moment that I am correct. If we inherited watered down kata, what kind of bunkai will we practice? A punch to the chest or face may not be as effective as a simple poke to the eyes.

Grappling. Here is where it gets really interesting. When the movements of kata were made public, the first thing to go was the grappling element. This seems to be particularly true in Shorin-Ryu based systems. Goju-Ryu evolved later and grappling seems to have not been suppressed in the kata.


However, in many systems, joint manipulation and grappling techniques were either eliminated or changed into blocks. Thus, a block might not only also be a punch -- it might also be a joint lock or throw. In fact, for many Karate teachers, these are the more likely applications. But if you execute a block with the body dynamics for a block, it might not work properly as a throw. Blocks work by stopping or redirecting an attack. Throws involve a completely different process of intercepting and redirecting the attacker's momentum. You have to know what you are doing (blocking or throwing) in order to do it properly.


When Kentsu Yabu came to Hawaii he was asked what the difference was between Karate (which then meant "China Hand") and Ju Jutsu. His reply was remarkable. Think about Ju Jutsu for a moment. Its curriculum is vast. Yabu answered that Ju Jutsu was only 10% of Karate. This was more than an idle boast. We know today that pre-public school system Karate had a comprehensive grappling element, often called Tegumi or Tuite.


In other words, an old school Karateka could punch like a boxer, throw like a Judoka and manipulate joints like a Ju Jutsu expert. If you ask me, the closest art to Karate is old style Aikido. If Yabu Sensei was right, a Karate expert should know just about every Aikido technique.


Do you? More importantly in the context of this article, when you analyze the movements of a kata, do you recognise the Aikido, Judo and Ju Jutsu-like elements?

The same is not true of ordinary kata based Karate. You will not know what to do, more importantly, you body will not know what to do instinctively, unless you break down and break out the movements into something you can practice with a partner. This gets us back to the originators of the kata. They included techniques that worked for them. You will have to practice techniques so that they will work for you. Bunkai cannot be a mere mental process of identifying applications. Mind bunkai won't work in the real world.

The engagement distance (maai) in Okinawan Karate is very close -- your elbow should be able to touch your opponent. At that range, bunkai is unlimited (you can hit with any part of your body, apply joint techniques, stomp, trip, and throw). If you are outside of that range, perhaps you should try to escape.

The sentiments expressed in Charles Goodin's article above are exactly what I have been saying all along the way and exactly the way we train.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Thank you all who gave me a place to at least start. I did read the whole thread but did not run down all the references and did not look for previous threads. I am trying to avoid going down blind alleys. There is SO much information presented in just this thread that I don't know what to concentrate on, where the beginning is.
I will try Ian Abernathy. See how hard it is to get a solid concrete answer? I just don't get it. I know why I do speed drills, I know why I do turn in drills, I know why I do flow drills, I know why I do the sparring kata, even katana kata I get ( adore, adore, adore). What is the big secret of basic sanchin kata that it can't be explained in two sentances?

As I learned dressage and taught it I found it did not become more complex to explain. It distills down to a few very simple principals that are Brutally hard to execute but can be explained in a few sentances. The more intimately I Know my subject the simpler it is to explain. Be it dressage or the Reformation.

I must apologise. I was so involved with my discussion with Maka that I failed to reply to your post. Elsewhere there is a thread about McDojos. If you would like a simple, two line explanation of kata, perhaps chase up one of them. The explanation will be something like; "we do kata because it is traditional". There you are, one line!

For me, kata is 99% of my karate. It cannot be explained in less than a library because everyone who is in to kata will have their own take on what they get out of it. Maka posted links to some great articles on kata and kata bunkai. The views expressed in those articles will be totally at odds with what most people experience in their normal training. The way most karate is taught kata has no real reason for being there. In fact I know of 'freestyle' karate schools who tossed out kata about 30 years ago because it was 'useless' only to bring it back when their understanding changed.

Sanchin kata is one of the heishugata. These kata are performed with a continued state of tension maintained throughout the kata. These kata help reinforce the basic principles of karate, the same principles that are found in most other martial arts. Off the top of my head, stability, balance, core strength, Ki extension and zanshin and mushin spring to mind. These are all practised while performing Sanchin. Sanchin does contain a lot of information that can be incorporated in bunkai but in the Goju system there are probably better kata to work with for that.

So let's go back to your original post:

I was doing Karate, Gojyu Ryu, and like it a fair bit. What drove me Crazy was the lack of information I could pull out of the teachers. I Must Must understand the concepts behind what I am doing or I can not learn Anything, anything!

Unfortunately that would be typical of many schools, especially those more involved in competition.

I finally learned how to do an armbar and the offangle armbar where the shoulder is hyperflexed so the arm breaks ( ala Rhonda Rousey) because I had the concept explained to me by Loyyd Irvine. ( didn't I like try to show that to someone like 3 years ago? Nahhhh.) Now I can see an armbar coming and can defeat it 99% of the time and God Help you if I can get your shoulder off the ground because I will find a way to have you tap. Once I have the concept it's just looking for holes in YOUR game I can jump on.

Kata were designed as fighting systems, not just a collection of techniques. They contain multitudes of locks, holds and takedowns and show you how to be in the right position to execute those moves. Beyond that the kata give you a follow up technique if your first technique fails. So yes, there are plenty of arm bars in kata and almost all the techniques are designed to destroy limbs or other body parts.


So Kata. I hear what you are saying about sanchin but to me it is just a jumble of meaningless unconnected motions. I have no idea off what the "ideal" is, what the concepts Behind kata are, why the motions are made the way they are, what is suppose to be achieved, what is suppose to be concentrated on, what is the "right" way, what is a fault, where this leads, in short What the Hell I am doing.

The kata alone gives you very little. It is only when the application is added that it becomes meaningful. The kata is like the skeleton if you like. It is there and you can recognise it but by itself it isn't going anywhere. When you add all the other body parts, the body takes like. When you add application to the kata, the kata has life.

I loved the repetition and speed drills in bunki, in fact it very quickly was an innate response. I have trouble boxing sparring because I can't not block, I just do. There is NO thought, it just happens faster than I can think "don't block". Remember I am a Dressage psycho, a realy picky French Classical dressage psycho and it doesn't get much more anal than that. If I understood the concepts behind Kata I bet I would excell at it but as of now it is un excercise in screaming frustration. Can anyone just Explain WHY am I doing Kata!

Speed, and strength for that matter, are the province of the young and fit. As you get older speed is almost irrelevant but this is not the time for that discussion. 'Excelling' at kata smacks of competition. Real kata, especially as advanced kata can look pretty messy. If you want to really excel at kata you will need to put aside all you think you know and start over. You will need some great teachers or if they are not available, some really good mentors ... not to mention the time it will take.

 

[TimoS]

The old masters talked about how they were trained, but early on they formed a gentlemen's agreement to not teach the applications or to adopt the "modern" way of teaching the art.

And yet, despite this "gentlemen's agreement", the applications continued being taught to students of Okinawan karate. So what does that tell you? To me, it tells that your claim of "gentlemen's agreement doesn't hold water. As for teaching in modern way, sure, karate teachers adapted. Back when e.g. Zenryo Shimabukuro trained with Kyan, there were only a handful of students. Nowadays masters can have tens of students training at the same time or at a seminar, even hundreds. Do you think that they can devote the same kind of attention to each student as when there were only two or three students? Of course not! Of course, when there aren't that many students present and you ask for corrections/advice, you will get them.

 

[teekin]

I must apologise. I was so involved with my discussion with Maka that I failed to reply to your post. Elsewhere there is a thread about McDojos. If you would like a simple, two line explanation of kata, perhaps chase up one of them. The explanation will be something like; "we do kata because it is traditional". There you are, one line!

Ohhhhhhhhh, that just hurt. :cofeespit:

For me, kata is 99% of my karate. It cannot be explained in less than a library because everyone who is in to kata will have their own take on what they get out of it. Maka posted links to some great articles on kata and kata bunkai. The views expressed in those articles will be totally at odds with what most people experience in their normal training. The way most karate is taught kata has no real reason for being there. In fact I know of 'freestyle' karate schools who tossed out kata about 30 years ago because it was 'useless' only to bring it back when their understanding changed.

Sanchin kata is one of the heishugata. These kata are performed with a continued state of tension maintained throughout the kata. These kata help reinforce the basic principles of karate, the same principles that are found in most other martial arts. Off the top of my head, stability, balance, core strength, Ki extension and zanshin and mushin spring to mind. These are all practised while performing Sanchin. Sanchin does contain a lot of information that can be incorporated in bunkai but in the Goju system there are probably better kata to work with for that.

Three, three sentances. I had no idea it was to be performed in a continuous state of tension. How much tension, does it vary? When and why? how can you tell? What is the purpose of maintaining tension? You have taught me more about the principals behind sanchin in these three sentances than I had learned the entire time that I performed it. Thank you for answering it in a very basic straight forward way. Now I have something to work with, a place to start.

So let's go back to your original post:

Addendum to armbar----I was Shown via demonstation, every kind of visual demontration you can possibly think of, how to do an arm bar. Repeatedly, as I calculate approx 1000X over 3 years. I had it done to me as well so I could feel my limbs move in the sequence I needed to repeat and that helped a great deal. I wish I had had more time to explore and play around with that particular submission, it is a great gateway to so so many cool things to do with upper body joints. What was missing was the WHY, the explanation behind why each angle and position was "just so" in order for that submission to work. I had to understand the principals Behind each part of every position, the physics ( physiology) behind why an armbar will destroy a joint in order to see How to do the technique. I am NOT a visual learner, showing me doesn't help me understand.

 

[K-man]

Three, three sentances. I had no idea it was to be performed in a continuous state of tension. How much tension, does it vary? When and why? how can you tell? What is the purpose of maintaining tension? You have taught me more about the principals behind sanchin in these three sentances than I had learned the entire time that I performed it. Thank you for answering it in a very basic straight forward way. Now I have something to work with, a place to start.

The tension starts from the initial breakout into Sanchin dachi, double Chudan Uke and remains throughout the kata. Why is an interesting question. Breathing is also a big part of this kata as the lungs are totally emptied with each technique. Tensioning the body with dynamic tension is allowing both isotonic and isometric exercise of the body. This combined with correct posture produces a rock hard structure. Some people see the breathing as developing Ki but that really depends on your understanding of Ki. Certainly during testing you extend your mind as you extend your arm in the 'punch' and again as the arm returns to the Chudan Uke position. The tension in the body also transmits through to the floor where you are literally gripping with your toes. Also by focusing on tensioning the body, the testing where it is sometimes quite physical, doesn't affect you as your mind and body are one. This type of situation I would describe as 'hard' Ki.
:asian:

 

[teekin]

The tension starts from the initial breakout into Sanchin dachi, double Chudan Uke and remains throughout the kata. Why is an interesting question. Breathing is also a big part of this kata as the lungs are totally emptied with each technique. Tensioning the body with dynamic tension is allowing both isotonic and isometric exercise of the body. This combined with correct posture produces a rock hard structure. Some people see the breathing as developing Ki but that really depends on your understanding of Ki. Certainly during testing you extend your mind as you extend your arm in the 'punch' and again as the arm returns to the Chudan Uke position. The tension in the body also transmits through to the floor where you are literally gripping with your toes. Also by focusing on tensioning the body, the testing where it is sometimes quite physical, doesn't affect you as your mind and body are one. This type of situation I would describe as 'hard' Ki.
:asian:

tension starts from the initial breakout into Sanchin dachi.
Ok, how much tension are we talking about here? Relaxed and toned like when dropping into a "ready" stance or like muscles shaking, sweat dripping hold a 1/2 crunch for 20 minutes type tension? Please to remember I didn't get very much info about any of the kata's except the "tradition", and " patience grasshopper" speaches. What may seem to be stupid beyond belief questions to you is really just outright ignorance ( and angry frustration)on my part

Why is an interesting question. But not answered yet huh?

Breathing is also a big part of this kata as the lungs are totally emptied with each technique.
They are? Nope , no breathing or any part there of was discussed with me for this or any other kata. I can see that this would change the focus of sanchin though, interesting.

allowing both isotonic and isometric exercise of the body. combined with correct posture produces a rock hard structure.
More interesting, I know that mindfull breathing and moving tension from muscles to muscle can produce very restful sleep and a very focused clear mind. Mother*******, I Knew there was a LOT more to this than what I was being told. There Had to be a reason kata had survived this many centuries. Now why in the sam hell wasn't any of this taught to me when I was ASKING about it? So beyond frusterating.
So are answers like " you are to dumb to talk to, go and read Ian Abernathy then Maybe we can have a discussion". Sir, way to be an ambassador for your sport. With people like you as a mentor I'm sure all the bright inquisitive minds will just flock to and embrace Karate as a means to enlightenment.

Gracious K man now that you have explained some of the surface or superficial concepts behind sanchin to me are the Karate Gestapo going to come and kill you in your sleep. After all I didn't have to read 10 or 12 books on history, lineage, the philosophy behind or the ancient manual of kata. I do hope you survive the night.

developing Ki but that really depends on your understanding of Ki.
I don't really get the Ki thing so I can't comment on it.

The tension in the body also transmits through to the floor where you are literally gripping with your toes. Also by focusing on tensioning the body, the testing where it is sometimes quite physical, doesn't affect you as your mind and body are one.
I get this, I have done an excercise like this I just don't remember why or where but yes I understand what you are saying here and how it applies to sanchin as you have described it to me.

When you explain the specifics of the technics and reasons Behind those techniques, sanchin starts to take on a 3rd dimension. Thank you very much. Sometimes I just need a small push to start to grasp things. I still don't know if I can work with That teacher who didn't give me any answers but perhaps I can work around him. Again, thank you for your time and for being straight forward with me.

Teek

 

[Marnetmar]

Katas and forms are about principles of movement, not movements in and of themselves.

 

[K-man]

Katas and forms are about principles of movement, not movements in and of themselves.

Mmm! And that means ... ? What movement are you meaning? The movement in stance or the movement of the technique and what 'principles' are you referring to?
:asian:

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

As a EPAK practitioner who has recently become very interested in classical Karate bunkai oyo, I have found the various sources useful:

Shuri / Shorin forms

1) Iain Abernethy, as others have mentioned. I have all his Bunkai Jutsu DVD downloads and I must say they are exceptional, the best of the lot imo.

2) John Titchen's Pinan Flow System (from Amazon)

3) John Burke's various bunkai books (from Amazon) and DVD downloads (from his site, Bunkai Strategies)

Naha forms (primarily Goju)

1) Giles Hopkins blog and articles (as downloaded from the Journal of Asian Martial Arts) present excellent applications for Goju forms. E.g. this blog post has a link to his youtube video on Saifa: http://goju-ryu.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/saifa-kata-and-bunkai.html

2) While I don't agree with all of his ideas, Tom Hill's videos on Youtube are also quite good.

3) Gavin Mulholland's book 'Four Shades of Black' is a solidly written treatise on the mindset and training philosophies behind each kata.

Interestingly, I see a great deal of overlap between the SD techniques in Kenpo and postures found in the Goju forms, especially Seipai and Kururunfa. Does anyone else see this too? Just curious...

 

[D.Cobb]

Interestingly, I see a great deal of overlap between the SD techniques in Kenpo and postures found in the Goju forms, especially Seipai and Kururunfa. Does anyone else see this too? Just curious...

I studied American Kenpo for about 7 years, and when I left, I was looking for something more "old school". I tried a few different systems until I found Goju Ryu. I initially trained in Meibukan Goju under Cristofoli Senseii, but I am now a member of the Kenkyu Kai headed by Taira Sensei. The reason I chose Goju Ryu and stayed was because of the similarities I found in the 2 systems and also in the training philosophies of the 2 systems.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Sure, after performing a kata a few times I can see one or two meanings for every move, different ways of breathing and different rhythms. but there has to be more to it than that, help from any other martial artists on how they think about and practice Kata/forms. Apparently each kata is a complete system of fighting, how does one achieve that level of mastery and understanding?

Learning all the steps, moves, and applications of a kata is just the first step. Much of a kata is supposed to be mental. When you're going through all the steps and moves you're supposed to imagine that you're actually fighting opponents. When you throw a punch or kick in the kata you're supposed to imagine you're really hitting an adversary. That's why kata is often referred to as meditation in motion. To really get the most out of katas, to get the most from that type of exercise, you have to apply the mental aspect. You have to make like you're really fighting attackers. Otherwise the kata is dead.

 

[donald1]

I practice lots of kata lots. Understanding kata to me is taking techniques from the form and being able to apply them or what it could be. Perhaps practice one form, while going through one spot in the form see how it could be used in a real life self defense then see how I can change that one part in the form; by that I mean see what other moves i could use or switch moves around or change stances to get different angles

Personally its one thing I really like about kata, learning different combinations. Whether i am practicing a goju ryu kata like tondo ku kata dai itchi and seisan; a kobudo kata like tokumine dai and hamahiga sho. There's many more kata too and so many possibilities to do things differently in them

 

[K-man]

Personally its one thing I really like about kata, learning different combinations. Whether i am practicing a goju ryu kata like tondo ku kata dai itchi and seisan; a kobudo kata like tokumine dai and hamahiga sho. There's many more kata too and so many possibilities to do things differently in them

Goju Ryu kata?

 

[dancingalone]

Goju Ryu kata?

That's one of the beginner forms created by Toguchi Sensei from the Shoreikan lineage. Not in Jundokan. Kinda repetitive...Not sure why Toguchi felt it were necessary considering its similarity to Gekisai Dai Ichi.