In light of the Olympics: Kata hoarding and the negative effects.

[Dirty Dog]

Those numbers blow my mind....

Keep in mind I've only been training for a year...Uechi-Ryu has 8 (originally 3) I know 4 (Meaning I can perform the techniques with some level of skill) but I wouldn't say I've internalized them yet. Truly knowing 26 let alone 50 seems insane to me

That's because you're still new. 24 Chang Hon forms, 6 Kicho forms, 8 Palgwae forms, 8 Taegeuk forms, 9 Yudanja forms. And I do think I truly know them; some of them I've practiced for 50 years.

 

[TenHands]

Those numbers blow my mind....

Keep in mind I've only been training for a year...Uechi-Ryu has 8 (originally 3) I know 4 (Meaning I can perform the techniques with some level of skill) but I wouldn't say I've internalized them yet. Truly knowing 26 let alone 50 seems insane to me

What do you consider "truly" knowing? In Shotokan, some of us would consider that being able to perform it at a competition with a decent level of ability.

 

[isshinryuronin]

What i think of as beginner forms

There is a general misunderstanding prevalent in this thread. I chose Flying Crane's post to quote to introduce mine as he used the revealing words, "What I think of as beginner forms..." While there are some kata more complex and longer than others, and with perhaps more subtle bunkai, it is a mistake to view the "easier" ones as basic and the "harder" ones as advanced.

We (including myself) usually think of the order of the katas we learn as progressing from beginner to advanced - this is, strictly speaking, not so (exceptions to be discussed further down.) To understand this, we must look back into karate history.

There can be said (at least by me) to be two types of kata: Evolved and constructed. Evolved kata are those that were formed by the Okinawan masters in the late 1700's thru the 1800's, based on the teachings of the Chinese masters. The sole purpose of these kata were to provide a vehicle for practicing and remembering combat techniques. It was not a method of teaching these moves in an orderly and progressive manner - that was done one-on-one from master to student.

It's important to note that many (Okinawan and Japanese) styles have similar katas in common. This is because the early masters learned from multiple sources and had teachers in common. Each kata represented that teacher's method of fighting. (i.e. Chinto and Kusanku) So, in a sense, all these kata were advanced. After all, one master's fighting style was not "basic" while the other master's style, "advanced."

As the number of kata grew, they had to be put in come kind of order - you can't teach 6 or 12 kata all at once. Each individual master (style) decided the order. As my style is largely based on Shorinryu, the order of the kata we have in common are taught in the same order. But while we teach Seisan as a "beginner" form, Gojuryu teaches it later on as an "intermediate" form. Chinto kata for us is a brown belt form, while in Shitoryu, it's a high dan form.

So, in light of this, how can a kata be called beginner, intermediate, or advanced. These labels have no real meaning, other than referring to the order a particular style teaches them.

Now, for the exception to all this - the constructed kata. These are the forms that were specifically devised and planned to be taught in a specific order and are a fairly recent invention. Itosu's pinan (heian) kata 1-5 are a prime example. Now in the public schools, lesson plans and manuals were required to teach large groups and keep everyone on the same page. There had to be a standardized progression to take the students step-by-step thru the curriculum. At this point we now have what can be called beginner/basic and advanced kata.

(There are also, in some styles, kihon kata, which are not really kata in the normally used sense, being just practicing the ABC's in a particular order to drill them. And there are "dojo" kata where the instructor makes up a simple form to give the new students a "practice" kata to familiarize them with the basic steps.)

Note - To be honest, this post slightly conflicts to my initial one on this thread, in response to Paul Calugaru's. It is true that some forms are easier or harder (depending on the person), longer or shorter, etc. but this should NOT be taken as meaning basic or advanced. Those terms refer to the way they are taught by the instructor. Any kata or form can be taught at basic or advanced levels depending on the student's readiness.

This is sort of a new slant based on my knowledge and understanding of kata, as I haven't really thought of kata as basic or advanced - I just do them. But discussions such as this on this forum encourage one to examine concepts from different angles. For me, this leads to even a deeper appreciation of the Art.

 

[TenHands]

There is a general misunderstanding prevalent in this thread. I chose Flying Crane's post to quote to introduce mine as he used the revealing words, "What I think of as beginner forms..." While there are some kata more complex and longer than others, and with perhaps more subtle bunkai, it is a mistake to view the "easier" ones as basic and the "harder" ones as advanced.

We (including myself) usually think of the order of the katas we learn as progressing from beginner to advanced - this is, strictly speaking, not so (exceptions to be discussed further down.) To understand this, we must look back into karate history.

There can be said (at least by me) to be two types of kata: Evolved and constructed. Evolved kata are those that were formed by the Okinawan masters in the late 1700's thru the 1800's, based on the teachings of the Chinese masters. The sole purpose of these kata were to provide a vehicle for practicing and remembering combat techniques. It was not a method of teaching these moves in an orderly and progressive manner - that was done one-on-one from master to student.

It's important to note that many (Okinawan and Japanese) styles have similar katas in common. This is because the early masters learned from multiple sources and had teachers in common. Each kata represented that teacher's method of fighting. (i.e. Chinto and Kusanku) So, in a sense, all these kata were advanced. After all, one master's fighting style was not "basic" while the other master's style, "advanced."

As the number of kata grew, they had to be put in come kind of order - you can't teach 6 or 12 kata all at once. Each individual master (style) decided the order. As my style is largely based on Shorinryu, the order of the kata we have in common are taught in the same order. But while we teach Seisan as a "beginner" form, Gojuryu teaches it later on as an "intermediate" form. Chinto kata for us is a brown belt form, while in Shitoryu, it's a high dan form.

So, in light of this, how can a kata be called beginner, intermediate, or advanced. These labels have no real meaning, other than referring to the order a particular style teaches them.

Now, for the exception to all this - the constructed kata. These are the forms that were specifically devised and planned to be taught in a specific order and are a fairly recent invention. Itosu's pinan (heian) kata 1-5 are a prime example. Now in the public schools, lesson plans and manuals were required to teach large groups and keep everyone on the same page. There had to be a standardized progression to take the students step-by-step thru the curriculum. At this point we now have what can be called beginner/basic and advanced kata.

(There are also, in some styles, kihon kata, which are not really kata in the normally used sense, being just practicing the ABC's in a particular order to drill them. And there are "dojo" kata where the instructor makes up a simple form to give the new students a "practice" kata to familiarize them with the basic steps.)

Note - To be honest, this post slightly conflicts to my initial one on this thread, in response to Paul Calugaru's. It is true that some forms are easier or harder (depending on the person), longer or shorter, etc. but this should NOT be taken as meaning basic or advanced. Those terms refer to the way they are taught by the instructor. Any kata or form can be taught at basic or advanced levels depending on the student's readiness.

This is sort of a new slant based on my knowledge and understanding of kata, as I haven't really thought of kata as basic or advanced - I just do them. But discussions such as this on this forum encourage one to examine concepts from different angles. For me, this leads to even a deeper appreciation of the Art.

You seem like you know a lot about kata placement in the curriculum.
One question I've been burning to ask someone like you: how do you explain Wankan being placed higher in the Shotokan syllabus than Unsu?

 

[isshinryuronin]

You seem like you know a lot about kata placement in the curriculum.
One question I've been burning to ask someone like you: how do you explain Wankan being placed higher in the Shotokan syllabus than Unsu?

They are both taught late in the curriculum, so in that sense both are advanced. Some schools may teach one before the other, depending on what list they go by - no need to split hairs. They are very different from each other, wankan being shorter and seemingly less complex.

Why it is placed towards the end of the curriculum, I don't know. Here are my two guesses: 1. It may be simply that it was added more recently to Shotokan so was stuck in at the end of the list. 2. Maybe because it is "basic" it was purposely placed for advanced students as a reminder that basics are of utmost importance. (sounds like something I'd do) Could be both possibilities are completely wrong - I'm not versed in Shotokan details.

Since you are asking me this question instead of a Shotokan sensei, I'm guessing you are not in a position to be worrying about such forms. Why is an explanation regarding this question even required?

 

[Drobison491]

That's because you're still new. 24 Chang Hon forms, 6 Kicho forms, 8 Palgwae forms, 8 Taegeuk forms, 9 Yudanja forms. And I do think I truly know them; some of them I've practiced for 50 years.

point taken. I'm sure I'll have a different view point in a couple years, but being a bigger its hard to fathom.

along the save line, I know everyone has a different opinion on kata, but what is the benefit of learning/knowing so many, I would think eventually the techniques become the same or blended so what benefit do you see in rearranging the order? Or is it just adding to your knowledge bank?

 

[Drobison491]

What do you consider "truly" knowing? In Shotokan, some of us would consider that being able to perform it at a competition with a decent level of ability.

I'm still toying with what knowing a kata means to me. Right now I guess I would say that its the difference between being able to memorize and perform the techniques vs understanding the application of the techniques or how to modify them as needed. Ie. I just learned Seichin Kata (our 4th), I've memorized the order and have the ability to perform the techniques (some sloppier than others), but for a few of the movements I can't see all the applications.

Not sure that makes any sense as I said I'm still working on my own thoughts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

point taken. I'm sure I'll have a different view point in a couple years, but being a bigger its hard to fathom.

along the save line, I know everyone has a different opinion on kata, but what is the benefit of learning/knowing so many, I would think eventually the techniques become the same or blended so what benefit do you see in rearranging the order? Or is it just adding to your knowledge bank?

Benefit #1 - I have rank from all three agencies (though only offer promotions in KKW or MDK) so it's probably best if I know their curriculum.
Benefit #2 - There are subtle (and not so-) differences between the ways each style does things. Understanding those differences and why they exist makes me a better martial artist.
Benefit #3 - How boring would it get practicing the same old same old for 50 years?

 

[TenHands]

I'm still toying with what knowing a kata means to me. Right now I guess I would say that its the difference between being able to memorize and perform the techniques vs understanding the application of the techniques or how to modify them as needed. Ie. I just learned Seichin Kata (our 4th), I've memorized the order and have the ability to perform the techniques (some sloppier than others), but for a few of the movements I can't see all the applications.

Not sure that makes any sense as I said I'm still working on my own thoughts.

The way I see kata is the same way I see a song:

First, you memorize the lyrics. Those are the movements.
Secondly, you memorize the notes. Those are the movements performed with some spirit.
Thirdly, you dive into the meaning of the lyrics. Those are the bunkai of the movements.
Fourthly, you develop a personal connection to the lyrics, notes, and meaning of the song. This is where I would guess the kata traverses into "winning an official tournament" territory.
Lastly, you know the song so well that you are able to make a cover and get recognized for it. This is the place where - again, my inexperienced self can only assume - only a select few can be placed (people like Funakoshi, Oyama, Motubu, etc): this is the place where some people might develop their own version of the kata that, although unique, retains the original principles and brings something new to the table. If you think about how both song and kata have evolved over the years, and how they are carried from one generation to the next, they are perfect equals in this regard; person makes song/kata, other person learns it and studies it, said other person then makes their own version that the next generation will do the same with.

At least that's how I see it. c:

 

[Drobison491]

The way I see kata is the same way I see a song:

First, you memorize the lyrics. Those are the movements.
Secondly, you memorize the notes. Those are the movements performed with some spirit.
Thirdly, you dive into the meaning of the lyrics. Those are the bunkai of the movements.
Fourthly, you develop a personal connection to the lyrics, notes, and meaning of the song. This is where I would guess the kata traverses into "winning an official tournament" territory.
Lastly, you know the song so well that you are able to make a cover and get recognized for it. This is the place where - again, my inexperienced self can only assume - only a select few can be placed (people like Funakoshi, Oyama, Motubu, etc): this is the place where some people might develop their own version of the kata that, although unique, retains the original principles and brings something new to the table. If you think about how both song and kata have evolved over the years, and how they are carried from one generation to the next, they are perfect equals in this regard; person makes song/kata, other person learns it and studies it, said other person then makes their own version that the next generation will do the same with.

At least that's how I see it. c:

I like that analogy. That's where my thought process was going, I just ramble a bit more

 

[Drobison491]

Benefit #1 - I have rank from all three agencies (though only offer promotions in KKW or MDK) so it's probably best if I know their curriculum.
Benefit #2 - There are subtle (and not so-) differences between the ways each style does things. Understanding those differences and why they exist makes me a better martial artist.
Benefit #3 - How boring would it get practicing the same old same old for 50 years?

Makes a lot of sense, I guess in my limited experience I'm not looking forward 50 years lol. I'm looking at the next several trying to learn and understand 8.

 

[TenHands]

I like that analogy. That's where my thought process was going, I just ramble a bit more

Man I thought I was the one rambling haha
Nice outfit by the way. c:

 

[twendkata71]

In the karate organization i am associated with we are only required to learn about 15 kata for dan rank. I learned many more so that I could be a better kata judge at USAKF,AAU,USANKF events. I know I won't master all of the kata that I have learned over my 41 years in karate do. I focus on about 15 kata for my development and training.