What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that people should skip a degree or should they go thru the steps? Do you know anyone who has jumped rank?
Jumping Rank
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
If someone really is good enough in all the important ways, why not? One of the best Kendoka I've met was a Shodan for decades. The last time he was in Japan an old friend (and very senior Japanese Kendo teacher) urged him to test for something higher. He was (legitimately) awarded a Godan shortly thereafter.
Mike I would say it all depends on the individual, I believe going though the ranks has it advantages but if someone is able to perform at the higher level then it should be OK.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
In theory, I don't have a problem with it.
In Kenpo, however, that seems near to impossible. Part of what makes Kenpo Kenpo is the objective system of charts and techniques. If a student really knows two belt levels worth of material, why wasn't he tested sooner on the earlier rank?
If you're asking about testing faster than normal time-in-rank requirements, I usually allow that unless the student is a child (or childish), and needs some extra weeks to grow into the rank.
In Kenpo, however, that seems near to impossible. Part of what makes Kenpo Kenpo is the objective system of charts and techniques. If a student really knows two belt levels worth of material, why wasn't he tested sooner on the earlier rank?
If you're asking about testing faster than normal time-in-rank requirements, I usually allow that unless the student is a child (or childish), and needs some extra weeks to grow into the rank.
I'll turn it around.
What standards do you use other than time?
If someone meets them she meets them.
Let's take a couple other personal examples.
One of my teacher's students, Narin, hasn't been doing Sera quite as long as I have. But he's very good, so he got a teaching credential some time back. He's doing martial arts since before I was born starting with Thai boxing as a kid in Thailand and going from there. He picked Silat up quickly and got to the point where Guru Plinck said that he had enough of a grasp of the curriculum, principles, fighting etc. to hold his head up with other teachers. Would there have been any point not recognizing this?
Another guy has close to two decades of Silat with some of the best teachers in the Netherlands and Indonesia. It was only a few months ago that he found out Guru Plinck was taking some new students. He started working out at another Indonesian MA school partly because it was the only game in town, partly because he had a friend starting there towards whom he feels protective. He was undoubtedly a more experienced Silat player than any of the teachers. Maybe even more skilled and knowledgeable than the owner of the chain. He was told he couldn't work out with her because she had been in the class something like six weeks longer than he. That particular franchise has a very rigid series of gradings with strict segregation of students at different levels. One of the rationales is that the student with six weeks more of classes is too dangerous to be allowed to work with the grade before.
Six foot four guy, almost twenty years of training. Can't work out with five foot nothing woman with a couple months because he would be in danger.
I believe that towards the end of his time there he was told that when black belts sparred with students of his rank (why beginners would be sparring is another issue) they weren't allowed to hit or grapple him, but since they were so much better he was under no such restriction. His reaction was "I can hit them, but they can't hit me?!"
*puts hands in pockets*
*looks absently up into the sky*
*whistles*
What standards do you use other than time?
If someone meets them she meets them.
Let's take a couple other personal examples.
One of my teacher's students, Narin, hasn't been doing Sera quite as long as I have. But he's very good, so he got a teaching credential some time back. He's doing martial arts since before I was born starting with Thai boxing as a kid in Thailand and going from there. He picked Silat up quickly and got to the point where Guru Plinck said that he had enough of a grasp of the curriculum, principles, fighting etc. to hold his head up with other teachers. Would there have been any point not recognizing this?
Another guy has close to two decades of Silat with some of the best teachers in the Netherlands and Indonesia. It was only a few months ago that he found out Guru Plinck was taking some new students. He started working out at another Indonesian MA school partly because it was the only game in town, partly because he had a friend starting there towards whom he feels protective. He was undoubtedly a more experienced Silat player than any of the teachers. Maybe even more skilled and knowledgeable than the owner of the chain. He was told he couldn't work out with her because she had been in the class something like six weeks longer than he. That particular franchise has a very rigid series of gradings with strict segregation of students at different levels. One of the rationales is that the student with six weeks more of classes is too dangerous to be allowed to work with the grade before.
Six foot four guy, almost twenty years of training. Can't work out with five foot nothing woman with a couple months because he would be in danger.
I believe that towards the end of his time there he was told that when black belts sparred with students of his rank (why beginners would be sparring is another issue) they weren't allowed to hit or grapple him, but since they were so much better he was under no such restriction. His reaction was "I can hit them, but they can't hit me?!"
*puts hands in pockets*
*looks absently up into the sky*
*whistles*
grydth
Senior Master
I have seen this practice, and an alternate version of very accelerated promotion. I don't think very much of it.
Once the highly respected Shihan of my daughters' dojo began a conversation with me about my usually high flying daughter possibly not receiving a belt tip towards promotion. I told him he, as the expert, should make the call as he saw fit. He said that surprised him as parents usually get all upset. I said belts and ranks are not why the girls are there, my only concern is that when they are grown that they can defend themselves, their family and their country.
My daughter's group were competing with each other, and viewing those who advanced quickly with envy. I asked if they should not be congratulating the others instead - isn't that what friends do? I also asked her what good rapid promotions do - is the high belt any good if one doesn't master the techniques and forgets the old lessons?
I am very happy Tai Chi has no belts.
Once the highly respected Shihan of my daughters' dojo began a conversation with me about my usually high flying daughter possibly not receiving a belt tip towards promotion. I told him he, as the expert, should make the call as he saw fit. He said that surprised him as parents usually get all upset. I said belts and ranks are not why the girls are there, my only concern is that when they are grown that they can defend themselves, their family and their country.
My daughter's group were competing with each other, and viewing those who advanced quickly with envy. I asked if they should not be congratulating the others instead - isn't that what friends do? I also asked her what good rapid promotions do - is the high belt any good if one doesn't master the techniques and forgets the old lessons?
I am very happy Tai Chi has no belts.
14 Kempo
Grandmaster
I have to bring up another point of view here ... I was a 2nd Dan in 1992, but then took a long, long break. Upon my return, my instructor worked with me and offered to allow me to wear my rank and work towards re-certification. I decided not too do so, I wore white. It was not long before my required material came back and rapidly, also my skill level jumped beyond some that were wearing brown belts. My first test took me from white to green. This test lasted more than 4 hours and I performed everything the brown belts did during this period. Personally, I don't see a problem with the jump. Point here being, there are instances where the situation is not the norm.
I've seen people get double and even triple promotions. In most cases it's because there was a very, very long time between promotions.
As a example, before the internet and the DVD/video age, many people (especially servicemen) were not in constant communication with their instructor or organization. Some people went 10-20 years without a promotion, even though they had practiced and taught all those years. I have no problem with these people being bumped up a few degrees.
The problem I do have is with some of the types that we discussed in the "High Rank and Multiple Arts" thread. Some of these people learn the techniques (or not) of a system, and then are promoted to 6th, 7th, 8th degree, without ever being a 1st, 2nd, etc.
As a example, before the internet and the DVD/video age, many people (especially servicemen) were not in constant communication with their instructor or organization. Some people went 10-20 years without a promotion, even though they had practiced and taught all those years. I have no problem with these people being bumped up a few degrees.
The problem I do have is with some of the types that we discussed in the "High Rank and Multiple Arts" thread. Some of these people learn the techniques (or not) of a system, and then are promoted to 6th, 7th, 8th degree, without ever being a 1st, 2nd, etc.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I think it can also hinge upon how curriculum is organized in the system. It seems like most kenpo systems, for example, have a fairly solidly established curriculum for each rank level up to about 5th black or so. If you actually skip rank in one of these systems, then I guess somehow you must have learned that curriculum in the meantime. Without knowing the curriculum, you cannot justify the rank, regardless.
But other systems don't codify the curriculum in the same way. For example, Capoeira has a very loose curriculum. There is a vast body of techniques and movements, but anyone at any level can begin training them. There are usually no specific requirements for any level. Instead, rank is granted by the instructor, based on a wholistic evaluation of one's level of understanding of the art, as well as an ability to display clean technique and a creative, intelligent, and appropriate ability to play in the roda. But there is no checklist where one can say "an orange cord should be able to do THIS list of techniques". The art can be fairly personal in that way.
I trained in capoeira for several years, but my circumstances prevented me from having a more than tangential relationship with any one school, and I was never ranked. Later, I joined a school and trained with them for over a year before they had a promotional ceremony. I was ranked at that ceremony with what is roughly the equivalent of what would be a brown belt in another martial system. That was the first ranking I received in capoeira, and I skipped several levels because my instructor acknowledged the training I had been doing prior, and felt my ability merited the rank.
But other systems don't codify the curriculum in the same way. For example, Capoeira has a very loose curriculum. There is a vast body of techniques and movements, but anyone at any level can begin training them. There are usually no specific requirements for any level. Instead, rank is granted by the instructor, based on a wholistic evaluation of one's level of understanding of the art, as well as an ability to display clean technique and a creative, intelligent, and appropriate ability to play in the roda. But there is no checklist where one can say "an orange cord should be able to do THIS list of techniques". The art can be fairly personal in that way.
I trained in capoeira for several years, but my circumstances prevented me from having a more than tangential relationship with any one school, and I was never ranked. Later, I joined a school and trained with them for over a year before they had a promotional ceremony. I was ranked at that ceremony with what is roughly the equivalent of what would be a brown belt in another martial system. That was the first ranking I received in capoeira, and I skipped several levels because my instructor acknowledged the training I had been doing prior, and felt my ability merited the rank.
To me, it depends very much on the particular circumstances of the student and the style. I think that, if the student can demonstrate the techniques and skills of the higher rank with the appropriate skill level... what's it matter? They're "really" that rank. I don't think it's going to happen often, though, because there just won't be that many students who can learn the material and demonstrate the skill of the higher rank without passing through the lower rank.
Several years ago, the head of the Kempo system I study wanted to award an honorary Shihan status to a fellow martial artist, quite a notable one, that was a longtime friend and colleague.
However, his friend didn't like the idea of just being handed an honorary rank, he wanted to be able to say he tested for it like anybody else.
Normally, the absolute minimum time to be awarded a Shihan status would be 9.5 years, assuming you were an outstanding martial artist who was quite devoted to the arts, and even then few who are in that long ever get to that level. However, it also requires a 5th Dan (hence the need for 9.5 years), and the Godan test in this art is not exactly simple (I'd imagine very few are), requiring written and oral requirements, demonstration of every technique in the curriculum, performance of a number of kata, and a final test called the "List of 300" where you must demonstrate 300 distinct martial arts techniques (blocks, strikes, kicks, throws, chokes, counterjoints, whatever), noting that there is less than 300 on the whole curriculum so you must innovate and move beyond what you have been shown to discover things on your own. Thus, it's not something very, very few people could walk in one day and just perform.
He insisted on taking the Godan test, and he said he'd refuse the Honorary Shihan if he failed it, he didn't want a rank he didn't earn. He was already a lifetime martial artist, and I think he was already a Shihan of one form of Karate, so it wasn't learning from scratch. I don't know how long he prepared for it, but he took the test, with the head of the system and a panel of other Shihan grading him, and was awarded his 5th Dan as his first rank ever in the system, and accepted Shihan status to go with it.
In a sense, you could say he skipped directly to 5th Dan, but that was clearly a special case.
I know some people don't like this practice, but I have to say that I hold some real respect for a man who was going to be issued an honorary ranking and insisted on taking the corresponding test.
However, his friend didn't like the idea of just being handed an honorary rank, he wanted to be able to say he tested for it like anybody else.
Normally, the absolute minimum time to be awarded a Shihan status would be 9.5 years, assuming you were an outstanding martial artist who was quite devoted to the arts, and even then few who are in that long ever get to that level. However, it also requires a 5th Dan (hence the need for 9.5 years), and the Godan test in this art is not exactly simple (I'd imagine very few are), requiring written and oral requirements, demonstration of every technique in the curriculum, performance of a number of kata, and a final test called the "List of 300" where you must demonstrate 300 distinct martial arts techniques (blocks, strikes, kicks, throws, chokes, counterjoints, whatever), noting that there is less than 300 on the whole curriculum so you must innovate and move beyond what you have been shown to discover things on your own. Thus, it's not something very, very few people could walk in one day and just perform.
He insisted on taking the Godan test, and he said he'd refuse the Honorary Shihan if he failed it, he didn't want a rank he didn't earn. He was already a lifetime martial artist, and I think he was already a Shihan of one form of Karate, so it wasn't learning from scratch. I don't know how long he prepared for it, but he took the test, with the head of the system and a panel of other Shihan grading him, and was awarded his 5th Dan as his first rank ever in the system, and accepted Shihan status to go with it.
In a sense, you could say he skipped directly to 5th Dan, but that was clearly a special case.
I know some people don't like this practice, but I have to say that I hold some real respect for a man who was going to be issued an honorary ranking and insisted on taking the corresponding test.
Yes it is noble to actually want to learn the material and test for the high rank (5th degree).
But to do it that way and bypass the 1st thru 4th degrees shows that there is not a "time" in the art, and a "contribution" to the art, that is required for promotion in the system. To me that is a slap in the face to the dedicated students who have put in the 10-20 years in the system to achieve their 5th degree.
But to do it that way and bypass the 1st thru 4th degrees shows that there is not a "time" in the art, and a "contribution" to the art, that is required for promotion in the system. To me that is a slap in the face to the dedicated students who have put in the 10-20 years in the system to achieve their 5th degree.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #17
Well, it seems like we can look at this from a few different view points. Someone who picks up the material quick and someone who has reached a certain point, taken time off, then returned.
I've seen people come from another art. Obviously, they already know how to punch, kick, etc. so their basics are going to be there. Slight differences in application are easy to iron out, but for the most part, they'll pick things up fairly quick. That being said, should they be able to reach a BB in a year or less? Most places that allow that are labled a McDojo or belt factory.
On the other end, and this fits in with my "Time in Grade" thread, but if someone has reached a certain point, taken time off, etc, then technically, they haven't put in the time, but yet they can still come back after X amount of time, bust their butt and jump a few belts? As John said in his last post...is this fair to someone who has put in the quality time, etc? IMO, no its not fair.
Mike
I've seen people come from another art. Obviously, they already know how to punch, kick, etc. so their basics are going to be there. Slight differences in application are easy to iron out, but for the most part, they'll pick things up fairly quick. That being said, should they be able to reach a BB in a year or less? Most places that allow that are labled a McDojo or belt factory.
On the other end, and this fits in with my "Time in Grade" thread, but if someone has reached a certain point, taken time off, etc, then technically, they haven't put in the time, but yet they can still come back after X amount of time, bust their butt and jump a few belts? As John said in his last post...is this fair to someone who has put in the quality time, etc? IMO, no its not fair.
Mike
dianhsuhe
Blue Belt
Jason,
I assume that you are referring to "recent" Kenpo/Kempo. It seemed fairly common for Ke?po folks to skip ranks in the old days. It is also worth mentioning that the "charts" came about from Parker, which was not that long ago and prior to that much of rank was based on fighting ability... Professor Chow promoted a young woman from Orange belt to Shodan when she knocked out one of his BB instructors while sparring. She "skipped" several ranks if you want to look at it that way but it was his prerogative and who was going to argue with the Professor
It is also worth mentioning that not all Ke?po systems "test", for example in Kara-Ho Kempo we have "promotions" since a test is not typically necessary since you are being tested in EVERY class.
In the end I agree with your thoughts on a student having more than 1 rank worth of material, since we teach only the criteria for one's next belt it would be iompossible for them to have 2 ranks material down pat. (Some try to learn by watching and from friends outside of class which is inappropriate though)
"Weeks to grow"? I would at least say months if the student is anything but an absolute beginner LOL
Cheers!
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
I have seen, in a few cases, a black belt instructor who owns his own school, and his immediate instructor dies/retires/changes too much stuff/forms his own system, etc. This person continues teaching his base system with no connection to the system head (kenpo orphan is the term I have heard) since his "link" is gone. 15 years later, he touches base with the system head or governing board, and is promoted several ranks.
One that I know of specifically, a gentleman had been teaching and practicing kenpo in his own school for 20 years as a 2nd degree black belt, never seeking rank. In that time, he had learned and even taught material thru 5th, though he could not promote. In 2001, he was promoted from 2nd to 5th, after testing in front of a board. In his case, whether he had worn the stripes or not, he had the time in, had worked and taught the material, and had pretty much done exactly what he would have done had he been receiving promotions all along.
An exception, certainly. Not the rule.
One that I know of specifically, a gentleman had been teaching and practicing kenpo in his own school for 20 years as a 2nd degree black belt, never seeking rank. In that time, he had learned and even taught material thru 5th, though he could not promote. In 2001, he was promoted from 2nd to 5th, after testing in front of a board. In his case, whether he had worn the stripes or not, he had the time in, had worked and taught the material, and had pretty much done exactly what he would have done had he been receiving promotions all along.
An exception, certainly. Not the rule.
