Judo For Self-Defense On The Street?

[Buka]

A lot of things can be done, sometimes. But it ain't the way to go.

I'm not a very good grappler, but I've spent years grappling, and I'm a lightweight, so I end up in bottom position so often I've thought of using it as a permanent, legal address. Striking isn't a good way to go when mounted.

However, if you're in bottom position and have full guard - now you're talking strikes, baby!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I wonder how many of you arguing for striking the groin from the ground have actually been mounted and had that person start elbowing you and pounding you in the face like Hanzou mentioned?

I have. I won. Additionally, being an instructor in the fifth largest LE agency in my state gives me access to uses-of-force beyond the ones I've personally been involved in. This includes video as well as after-action reports. On top of this we have a regional training center that I've been an adjunct instructor at since the 90's. This gives me access to other agencies in this part of the state.

No one can say 'you can't effectively strike the groin' because it's been done.

No one can say 'grabbing the testicles doesn't work' because it's been done.

No one can say 'gouging out an eye or biting doesn't work' because it's been done.

There are no absolutes in self defense. What works one time may not work another time. I've had a report of an elderly woman mounted by a young would-be rapist grabbing and crushing his testicles to the point he was subdued despite her being repeatedly struck in the head and upper torso. I've also seen six Deputies try to take down one perp on drugs who shrugged off repeated groin strikes like it was nothing.

Being mounted is not a death sentence. It isn't an autokill for the person on top. And it doesn't mean that the person on the bottom gives up without exploiting any/every means of disabling the attacker and regaining their feet.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

I have. I won. Additionally, being an instructor in the fifth largest LE agency in my state gives me access to uses-of-force beyond the ones I've personally been involved in. This includes video as well as after-action reports. On top of this we have a regional training center that I've been an adjunct instructor at since the 90's. This gives me access to other agencies in this part of the state.

No one can say 'you can't effectively strike the groin' because it's been done.

No one can say 'grabbing the testicles doesn't work' because it's been done.

No one can say 'gouging out an eye or biting doesn't work' because it's been done.

There are no absolutes in self defense. What works one time may not work another time. I've had a report of an elderly woman mounted by a young would-be rapist grabbing and crushing his testicles to the point he was subdued despite her being repeatedly struck in the head and upper torso. I've also seen six Deputies try to take down one perp on drugs who shrugged off repeated groin strikes like it was nothing.

Being mounted is not a death sentence. It isn't an autokill for the person on top. And it doesn't mean that the person on the bottom gives up without exploiting any/every means of disabling the attacker and regaining their feet.

Well said.

 

[Hanzou]

That depends upon the position taken by the person mounting. Obviously if they are too far back you look for another option.

Uh, that's exactly the position shown in the image above. The top person's hips are resting well below the rib line, so the elbow isn't reaching the groin. Further if the person is much larger than you, they're going to be even further down, maybe even to your hip area. Your elbows don't reach that far.

Wisdom dictates that you flow with the attack to identify any and all openings for defense. This could be striking the groin. It could be making the attempt to reach the groin to crush the testicles. It could be grabbing and biting a chunk out of the attacker's arm or ear or nose. It could be making the attempt to gouge the eye or strike the throat. Wisdom dictates that all of these (and other things) are viable options to be exploited if/when the opportunity presents itself.

Wisdom actually dictates that you learn the highest percentage moves to get out of situations. Attempting to grab testicles, reach up to grab their throat or parts of their face, or trying to bite them while they're dropping heavy blows on your head is stuff that untrained people do out of desperation.

Could it work? Possibly. However, common sense would tell someone to seek out more proven methods to get out of such sticky situations.

 

[drop bear]

2nd elbow? Doubt it. Sorry. = /

And it Krav they don't grab your testicles. They aim the point of their elbows (olecranon) towards their mounted opponent to protect their face, since that essentially puts your head into a protective "cage." What follows are short but powerful strikes to the groin of the mounted opponent to either prepare for a sweep or discourage the mounted opponent from attacking you.

How does elbowing someone in the groin discourage an attack? I would have thought it encouraged one.

 

[drop bear]

Uh, that's exactly the position shown in the image above. The top person's hips are resting well below the rib line, so the elbow isn't reaching the groin. Further if the person is much larger than you, they're going to be even further down, maybe even to your hip area. Your elbows don't reach that far.

I would have thought high mount would be harder to groin attack. Because less swing room.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

How does elbowing someone in the groin discourage an attack? I would have thought it encouraged one.

I someone is raining nut jabs on your boys, wouldn't you jump off?

 

[Hanzou]

2nd elbow? Doubt it. Sorry. = /

And it Krav they don't grab your testicles. They aim the point of their elbows (olecranon) towards their mounted opponent to protect their face, since that essentially puts your head into a protective "cage." What follows are short but powerful strikes to the groin of the mounted opponent to either prepare for a sweep or discourage the mounted opponent from attacking you.

I certainly hope your Krav Maga friends inform you that you can bypass that "Cage" defense by simply throwing hook punches to the head.

However, I guess at that point, you guys will be grabbing the nuts right?

 

[Hanzou]

I would have thought high mount would be harder to groin attack. Because less swing room.

I would have thought so too, but Kong said that he's actually seen it work, and that he's done it to people himself.

:shrug:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Uh, that's exactly the position shown in the image above.

I'm not basing my comments on a single picture. That is far to limited a perspective. Mounts come in all forms depending on each persons body size, location of the attack etc. Using a groin strike to successfully escape may be outside your experience, but it has been done and therefore it can work.

Wisdom actually dictates that you learn the highest percentage moves to get out of situations. Attempting to grab testicles, reach up to grab their throat or parts of their face, or trying to bite them while they're dropping heavy blows on your head is stuff that untrained people do out of desperation.

No, it's what professionals with more real world experience that you suggest as a possible option to be exploited it applicable to the situation.

Could it work? Possibly. However, common sense would tell someone to seek out more proven methods to get out of such sticky situations

It can work, that's fairly obvious since people have used it successfully. However, what would your 'more proven' methods be like? And, how are you rating them as 'more proven'? What real world statistical data are you offering that they are 'more proven'?

 

[drop bear]

I would have thought so too, but Kong said that he's actually seen it work, and that he's done it to people himself.

:shrug:

An indication of the sort of attacker you get in these life or death street encounters.

 

[drop bear]

I someone is raining nut jabs on your boys, wouldn't you jump off?

No. If he is willing to go nut shots i am hanging on harder. Still the safest place for me.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

However, I guess at that point, you guys will be grabbing the nuts right?

Well let's take a look at your video. First problem...it's a sport match. You can tell right off since there is a referee standing there and the cool colored logo on the very soft, level, dry mat in the well lit, artificially created and controlled environment. This means that the guy on the bottom isn't allowed to do any of the things that we've been discussing. Thus you are arriving at a preconceived idea based on flawed logic and trying to apply it to a scenario that you have no experience with.

Secondly, let's use some magic and pretend that this is a real fight, in a real parking lot and there are no rules. Just for giggles. What is the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom uses his knife (or improvised edged weapon) to slash or stab him? Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom decides not to lay there (like the guy in the video) and arches up which unbalances the guy on top and he smashes his head into the parked car right next to them? Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom reaches up and grabs one of his arms and takes a bite out of it to the bone? Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom does pretty much a bunch of different stuff that the guy in your video isn't allowed to do?

Thirdly, tell the woman that have escaped rape by grabbing testicles that it doesn't work.

This truly heroic woman has a style of command

61 year old Grannie grabs 37 year old Rapist by the balls movie style and kills him with his own knife

Court: Woman crushes rapist’s privates

Man collapses and dies ‘after woman squeezed his testicles during fight’

Kick *** Self Defense: Tell Us Your Stories (or ask a Question)

Just a few examples.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not basing my comments on a single picture.

That was the picture you commented on.

Mounts come in all forms depending on each persons body size, location of the attack etc. Using a groin strike to successfully escape may be outside your experience, but it has been done and therefore it can work.

It can work, that's fairly obvious since people have used it successfully. [/B]

I've just explained why an elbow strike to the groin isn't feasible from the bottom of the mounted position. However, if you have some evidence beyond anecdotal experience, please feel free to share.

However, what would your 'more proven' methods be like? And, how are you rating them as 'more proven'? What real world statistical data are you offering that they are 'more proven'?

Bjj mount escapes would be a great start.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That was the picture you commented on.

No, that was the picture in the post I quoted and commented on.

I've just explained why an elbow strike to the groin isn't feasible from the bottom of the mounted position.

And yet I've done it

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Bjj mount escapes would be a great start.

Anyone in particular? You usually have a video to share, how about sharing one or two that you think would work well.

 

[MAfreak]

You realize this forum is called "martialtalk," right? -_-

well then "don't talk all day, spend also time on training." just think logical.

 

[Hanzou]

Well let's take a look at your video. First problem...it's a sport match. You can tell right off since there is a referee standing there and the cool colored logo on the very soft, level, dry mat in the well lit, artificially created and controlled environment. This means that the guy on the bottom isn't allowed to do any of the things that we've been discussing. Thus you are arriving at a preconceived idea based on flawed logic and trying to apply it to a scenario that you have no experience with.

Would you have preferred something like this;

No rules, just the way you like it.

Secondly, let's use some magic and pretend that this is a real fight, in a real parking lot and there are no rules. Just for giggles. What is the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom uses his knife (or improvised edged weapon) to slash or stab him?

How is he going to reach for his knife when the guy on top is hitting him in the face?

Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom decides not to lay there (like the guy in the video) and arches up which unbalances the guy on top and he smashes his head into the parked car right next to them?

Arch your back and chest upwards while someone is sitting on top of it? Really?

Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom reaches up and grabs one of his arms and takes a bite out of it to the bone?

Reach up, grab the arm, and take a bite that will go all the way to the bone while they're sitting on top of you and striking you in the face?

Thirdly, tell the woman that have escaped rape by grabbing testicles that it doesn't work.

Where did I say that grabbing the testicles doesn't work? I'm saying that the chances of you striking the testicles while someone is dropping blows on your head is slim. If the assailant is trained, its even slimmer. Further, I'm saying that an elbow strike to the nuts while someone is mounted on you isn't feasible.

This truly heroic woman has a style of command

61 year old Grannie grabs 37 year old Rapist by the balls movie style and kills him with his own knife

Court: Woman crushes rapist’s privates

Man collapses and dies ‘after woman squeezed his testicles during fight’

Kick *** Self Defense: Tell Us Your Stories (or ask a Question)

Just a few examples.

And none of which is someone performing an elbow strike to the nuts from the bottom of mount.

 

[Hanzou]

Anyone in particular? You usually have a video to share, how about sharing one or two that you think would work well.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

I certainly hope your Krav Maga friends inform you that you can bypass that "Cage" defense by simply throwing hook punches to the head.

However, I guess at that point, you guys will be grabbing the nuts right?

Yep. Straight jab into the nuts brother.

Let's see about that ground and pound after a coupla nut shots.