Judo For Self-Defense On The Street?

[WarriorMonk7]

Groin shots while in (closed) Guard?

Simply put, your posture is broken, and you're completely in the Bjj exponent's territory. Or as we say in my gym "You f______ed" up a long time ago!". You're going to have to fight in order to restore your posture, and that Bjj exponent can attack you at any point while you're trying to restore that posture. Assuming that you have no clue what you're doing since you view Bjj as "silly", you're going to be opening yourself up to locks, sweeps, and chokes without even realizing it.

Considering that this person was good enough to get you into closed guard, there's a pretty good chance that they're going to be good enough to destroy you before you get the first groin strike off.

Nope. Did BJJ for a year. I know, I know - a year is nothing.

I was not impressed with it, although it works fabulously well in an octagon with rules. Rules, gentlemen.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

I've thrown people wearing T-shirts. I've thrown people wearing no shirt .I've thrown people wearing sports coats or suits.

Most judo throws will work without the judogi; with the right training and practice, this concern of yours is not valid.



Erm...practice certainly does. Competition can. The kumikata position is not necessary to perform judo throws and locks, and most of the throws work better as a defense against a strike, With the right training and practice, this concern of yours is not valid.




This is a valid concern: what is taught as judo is sometimes so geared towards competition that it's more combative aspects are lost,

Fact is, most of the throws have a strike that is integral to them-though they are not always taught this way.





I think you should train more.

Thanks!!

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Sweep him into mount and then do what the situation requires. Punish them or escape, it's your choice.

Mount me and I will elbow you in the groin. j/k. ; )

 

[WarriorMonk7]

A bjj school who's belts are worth anything will be teaching you enough nage-waza to where you can easily ragdoll an attacker standing without ever going to the ground if need be. It all depends on the school, some of them are 100% pure sport where all of your grappling starts on your knees and you seldom, if ever do anything else. I agree with you when it comes to those, but there are others that actually teach the right way, with judo and wrestling takedowns included in the cirriculum. In fact, Robson Moura's place has a day out of the week where his students literally do zero ground grappling and nothing but throws and takedowns. This approach has self defense in mind, as the situation you describe is one where you're probably better off slamming your attacker as you remain standing ready for his accomplice to jump in.

Thanks!!

 

[Hanzou]

Mount me and I will elbow you in the groin. j/k. ; )

An elbow to my groin while I'm in mount?

Okay.......

A year in Bjj eh?

 

[MAfreak]

one of those topics... without mentioning names, it happens alot that internet people, who aren't very well trained or informed in martial arts (which is obvious in other topics by them) act up in the comments in pointless discussions.
guys, don't talk, go train.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Depends on how Judo is taught. It may be worth noting that Dermott 'Patt' O'Neill of WWII combatives fame was, at the time (WWII era) the highest ranked non-Japanese Judo player in the world. He stated, rather candidly, that sport Judo was useless in combat unless the enemy was wearing a gi and restricting themselves to the same set of rules. This needs to be considered carefully. Judo could be a complete waste of time or it could be a valuable skill set. The difference is in the way it is taught. Same with any martial art. If training is solely against a single opponent, wearing specific clothing, obeying specific rules, observing specific restrictions then as far as SD is concerned, it's a waste of time and is actually a detriment to training. On the other hand, if the basics are taught in line with differing clothing (or no clothing), non-adherence to a specific rule set or restrictions (read: you can deck the guy or knee his groin as well as throw him) then it's a nice skill set to have.

All depends on the methodology of training as well as the skill and experience of the instructor.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

An elbow to my groin while I'm in mount?

Okay.......

A year in Bjj eh?

Why not? I've seen it done and it worked well. Lots of things can be done to someone mounting you if you're not confined to a rule set and don't mind damaging the attacker. Of course I'm referring to a real world altercation and not the controlled environment of rule enforced sporting event.

 

[Skullpunch]

Nope. Did BJJ for a year. I know, I know - a year is nothing.

I was not impressed with it, although it works fabulously well in an octagon with rules. Rules, gentlemen.

Why not? I've seen it done and it worked well. Lots of things can be done to someone mounting you if you're not confined to a rule set and don't mind damaging the attacker. Of course I'm referring to a real world altercation and the controlled environment of rule enforced sporting event.

A lot of you seem to forget that the origin of the UFC was not a controlled environment governed by the Nevada State Athletic Commission, but it has its roots in bare knuckle Vale Tudo, where groin strikes and eye gouges and such were allowed. Bjj was still a top tier art and I've seen exactly zero instances of effective strikes to the groin being utilized from the mount bottom position. I'm sure it's theoretically possible, but percentage wise you're better off knowing how to actually fight on the ground. If you get good enough at that then maybe you actually do have half a chance of pulling off one of these mount bottom groin attacks.

From the beginning of Vale Tudo up until about UFC 12, groin attacks were allowed. In fact, a fight at UFC 4 was won with groin strikes but it sure as fukk wasn't from the mount bottom - the guy who won took his opponent down and landed directly in side mount and from there he just held him down and starting wailing on his dick until he tapped out. That's how groin attacks can be effectively utilized in a real fight, or knees from the clinch standing or inside leg kicks. But expecting to escape from mount bottom when attacking the groin is your primary (or only) weapon is laughable and if you think competitive MMA/NHB fights fail to illustrate this because of rules and regulations then you need to brush up on your history.

Modern MMA style competition has been around since about 1920. 80% of that time has been no rules, keep that in mind before we try to pull this "xxx martial art is only effective in MMA because of rules" nonsense.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

A lot of you seem to forget that the origin of the UFC was not a controlled environment governed by the Nevada State Athletic Commission, but it has its roots in bare knuckle Vale Tudo, where groin strikes and eye gouges and such were allowed. Bjj was still a top tier art and I've seen exactly zero instances of effective strikes to the groin being utilized from the mount bottom position. I'm sure it's theoretically possible, but percentage wise you're better off knowing how to actually fight on the ground. If you get good enough at that then maybe you actually do have half a chance of pulling off one of these mount bottom groin attacks.

From the beginning of Vale Tudo up until about UFC 12, groin attacks were allowed. In fact, a fight at UFC 4 was won with groin strikes but it sure as fukk wasn't from the mount bottom - the guy who won took his opponent down and landed directly in side mount and from there he just held him down and starting wailing on his dick until he tapped out. That's how groin attacks can be effectively utilized in a real fight, or knees from the clinch standing or inside leg kicks. But expecting to escape from mount bottom when attacking the groin is your primary (or only) weapon is laughable and if you think competitive MMA/NHB fights fail to illustrate this because of rules and regulations then you need to brush up on your history.

Modern MMA style competition has been around since about 1920. 80% of that time has been no rules, keep that in mind before we try to pull this "xxx martial art is only effective in MMA because of rules" nonsense.

Your reasoning is flawed in regards to the UFC. Yes, in the beginning it has less rules than the current version. But it still had rules and it was still an artificial/controlled environment. And those MMA players came from backgrounds where more often than not a specific rule set was enforced (which did not include gouging out an eye or crushing the testicles). Additionally, many of the stand up fighters back then that initially competed in the UFC had little to no grappling experience OR little to no experience against a grappler.

And this line of discussion isn't limited to just grabbing/striking/crushing the testicles or gouging out an eye or biting off the ear. It can encompass defense against an edged or improvised weapon by the person being mounted. Any one that knows or has trained with Fred Crevello knows what the person on the bottom can do against the person on top IF they know what to do and aren't shy about doing it. Doesn't give the guy on the bottom an autokill, but it makes sure the guy on top doesn't have an autokill either. As with anything, he who gets there first with the most wins.

 

[Hanzou]

Why not?

Because your elbows stop at your rib cage, and the groin of the person on top of you is lower than that.

I also question the wisdom of going for a strike to the groin when someone is on top of you punching and elbowing you in the face.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Because your elbows stop at your rib cage, and the groin of the person on top of you is lower than that.

That depends upon the position taken by the person mounting. Obviously if they are too far back you look for another option.

I also question the wisdom of going for an groin strike to the groin when someone is on top of you punching and elbowing you in the face

Wisdom dictates that you flow with the attack to identify any and all openings for defense. This could be striking the groin. It could be making the attempt to reach the groin to crush the testicles. It could be grabbing and biting a chunk out of the attacker's arm or ear or nose. It could be making the attempt to gouge the eye or strike the throat. Wisdom dictates that all of these (and other things) are viable options to be exploited if/when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Your reasoning is flawed in regards to the UFC. Yes, in the beginning it has less rules than the current version. But it still had rules and it was still an artificial/controlled environment. And those MMA players came from backgrounds where more often than not a specific rule set was enforced (which did not include gouging out an eye or crushing the testicles). Additionally, many of the stand up fighters back then that initially competed in the UFC had little to no grappling experience OR little to no experience against a grappler.

And this line of discussion isn't limited to just grabbing/striking/crushing the testicles or gouging out an eye or biting off the ear. It can encompass defense against an edged or improvised weapon by the person being mounted. Any one that knows or has trained with Fred Crevello knows what the person on the bottom can do against the person on top IF they know what to do and aren't shy about doing it. Doesn't give the guy on the bottom an autokill, but it makes sure the guy on top doesn't have an autokill either. As with anything, he who gets there first with the most wins.

Sorry, gentlemen.

I have a lot of respect for BJJ, but I am going to agree with Kong Soo Do on this one.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

An elbow to my groin while I'm in mount?

Okay.......

A year in Bjj eh?

Yes - a year. Not much.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

one of those topics... without mentioning names, it happens alot that internet people, who aren't very well trained or informed in martial arts (which is obvious in other topics by them) act up in the comments in pointless discussions.
guys, don't talk, go train.

You realize this forum is called "martialtalk," right? -_-

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Because your elbows stop at your rib cage, and the groin of the person on top of you is lower than that.

I also question the wisdom of going for a strike to the groin when someone is on top of you punching and elbowing you in the face.

Whatever tool is available.

Elbow, hammer fist, jab, palm heel - whatever.

 

[kuniggety]

I wonder how many of you arguing for striking the groin from the ground have actually been mounted and had that person start elbowing you and pounding you in the face like Hanzou mentioned? If you're seriously trying to strike back and not control or sweep the person on top then you're gonna get hurt real bad really fast. To think you can disable a person on top of you with any kind of strike from the bottom is pure folly/fantasy.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

I wonder how many of you arguing for striking the groin from the ground have actually been mounted and had that person start elbowing you and pounding you in the face like Hanzou mentioned? If you're seriously trying to strike back and not control or sweep the person on top then you're gonna get hurt real bad really fast. To think you can disable a person on top of you with any kind of strike from the bottom is pure folly/fantasy.

Pure fantasy?

Lol - it can be done. Also spoke with two Krav Maga instructors and this is one of their methods of dealing with attackers when mounted. Sounds like common sense to me. -_-

 

[kuniggety]

Pure fantasy?

Lol - it can be done. Also spoke with two Krav Maga instructors and this is one of their methods of dealing with attackers when mounted. Sounds like common sense to me. -_-

After about the second elbow to the face it will be lights out for you, whether or not you even manage to force your hand to the groin and grab the testicles. Btw, KM is not known for its ground defenses.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

After about the second elbow to the face it will be lights out for you, whether or not you even manage to force your hand to the groin and grab the testicles. Btw, KM is not known for its ground defenses.

2nd elbow? Doubt it. Sorry. = /

And it Krav they don't grab your testicles. They aim the point of their elbows (olecranon) towards their mounted opponent to protect their face, since that essentially puts your head into a protective "cage." What follows are short but powerful strikes to the groin of the mounted opponent to either prepare for a sweep or discourage the mounted opponent from attacking you.