Judo For Self-Defense On The Street?

[Ironbear24]

It wouldn't waste your time so long as the instruction is good.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

It wouldn't waste your time so long as the instruction is good.

Nah - not good.

It's not self-defense based. Mostly just MMA. MMA rules etc.

 

[Ironbear24]

Alright man it's your time and money. I'm just suggesting you don't close your mind to things. There is rarely a bad art out there that you can't benefit from. Especially if you are a Muay Thai guy, you need some grappling to benefit your strikes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hello all.

I am new, so please be easy on me.

I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.

I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).

This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)

Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?

1. Judokas wear tough gis.

The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?

2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.

Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.

3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.

-

Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo? Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?

BTW - please don't recommend BJJ over Judo. This is not a BJJ thread and I think BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.

(And these defenses are not great. --->

)

Let me know what you think!!

The first time I used my martial arts for self-defense, it was my Judo I reached for. I don't recall the name of the technique, but I remember the situation well.

Yes, there are issues with translating Judo to the street, but they are somewhat remedied if you pay attention to them when you are training. Even more so if your instructor teaches self-defense applications. If you already have a striking component, Judo can be a good way to augment your toolbox.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Judo is a lot of fun but it won't take you "rounded" as you put it. Judo typically has zero strikes involved and doesn't often teach how to block strikes. It is essentially all take downs and wrestling techniques.

This is why Judo is often along side another art, but this is not to say Judo alone is bad. Judo alone can be used to protect yourself against many types of attackers. Just close the distance and make that takedown count. A slam to the concrete will hurt anyone.

This is consistent with my Judo experience, but my instructor also taught Shotokan Karate, so he held off on all the non-competition parts of Judo, filling in those gaps with the Shotokan classes. It is my understanding that Judo (as Kano originally conceived it) has strikes, blocks, etc. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Kano wasn't happy about the deep competition/sport focus of Judo.

 

[SenseiHitman]

Learning to throw the attacker with or without a gi on is important. If you are attacked by someone with a winter jacket or coat or military battle dress uniform on you will find the insight you gained throwing people wearing gi useful. Judo training would be very helpful but you may be able to find a Jujitsu school that teaches the throws without concern for rules. Judo is a contest between gentleman. The rules are designed to protect the players. The Jujitsu dojo will teach the same throws without concern for the safety of the uki. For example, you would bury the attacker into the ground head first with the combat version of a throw, in competition that would be unacceptable, The Jujitsu dojo will also teach you how to throw people with joint locks applied to the limbs, hips/shoulders and head and standing chokes that are illegal in Judo. I have spent some time training in Judo dojos and I really like the workouts, they train very hard and everything they practice has to work due to the competitive nature of Judo. In a perfect world I would say invest some time in both styles. Of course, this all depends on what available in your area I will take a good Judo dojo over a sloppy Jujitsu dojo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Learning to throw the attacker with or without a gi on is important. If you are attacked by someone with a winter jacket or coat or military battle dress uniform on you will find the insight you gained throwing people wearing gi useful. Judo training would be very helpful but you may be able to find a Jujitsu school that teaches the throws without concern for rules. Judo is a contest between gentleman. The rules are designed to protect the players. The Jujitsu dojo will teach the same throws without concern for the safety of the uki. For example, you would bury the attacker into the ground head first with the combat version of a throw, in competition that would be unacceptable, The Jujitsu dojo will also teach you how to throw people with joint locks applied to the limbs, hips/shoulders and head and standing chokes that are illegal in Judo. I have spent some time training in Judo dojos and I really like the workouts, they train very hard and everything they practice has to work due to the competitive nature of Judo. In a perfect world I would say invest some time in both styles. Of course, this all depends on what available in your area I will take a good Judo dojo over a sloppy Jujitsu dojo.

Actually, in both dojos, you will be concerned about the safety of uke. You won't "bury the attacker into the ground head first" in any practice session, and both Judo instructors and Jujitsu instructors can teach adaptation to practical defensive use. I've seen some Jujitsu schools that were too grounded in the formal technique, just as I've seen some Judo dojos that were too grounded in the needs of the competition. In my experience, Judo players actually throw harder than most Jujitsu practitioners.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Actually, in both dojos, you will be concerned about the safety of uke. You won't "bury the attacker into the ground head first" in any practice session, and both Judo instructors and Jujitsu instructors can teach adaptation to practical defensive use. I've seen some Jujitsu schools that were too grounded in the formal technique, just as I've seen some Judo dojos that were too grounded in the needs of the competition. In my experience, Judo players actually throw harder than most Jujitsu practitioners.

I think practicing it live - and sparring a lot - is important.

I did Japanese jujitsu when I was a kid, but there was little sparring (at least at that dojo).

 

[kuniggety]

I have. I won. Additionally, being an instructor in the fifth largest LE agency in my state gives me access to uses-of-force beyond the ones I've personally been involved in. This includes video as well as after-action reports. On top of this we have a regional training center that I've been an adjunct instructor at since the 90's. This gives me access to other agencies in this part of the state.

No one can say 'you can't effectively strike the groin' because it's been done.

No one can say 'grabbing the testicles doesn't work' because it's been done.

No one can say 'gouging out an eye or biting doesn't work' because it's been done.

There are no absolutes in self defense. What works one time may not work another time. I've had a report of an elderly woman mounted by a young would-be rapist grabbing and crushing his testicles to the point he was subdued despite her being repeatedly struck in the head and upper torso. I've also seen six Deputies try to take down one perp on drugs who shrugged off repeated groin strikes like it was nothing.

Being mounted is not a death sentence. It isn't an autokill for the person on top. And it doesn't mean that the person on the bottom gives up without exploiting any/every means of disabling the attacker and regaining their feet.

This is why I usually stay out of arguments on the Internet. None of your "points" counter my point. They're completely unrelated. I've heard/seen the story of the old lady before. He wasn't in the "mount" position discussed here and punching her in the face. He was getting her legs apart. Nor did I say being mounted is a death sentence. No one did. The point is that the person on the bottom should be controlling and or sweeping the person on the top, not striking back. Most of the power from a strike, which I'm sure you're aware of, comes from the core and not from the arms. When a person is mounted and flattened out on their back then they have essentially negligible strength to be striking back. To top this all off, what if the person on top is actually a woman? Let's see how far a groin strike will get you. Growing up in the Midwest and now living in Hawaii, I can tell you there's plenty of big women who can over power men.

 

[Ironbear24]

I think practicing it live - and sparring a lot - is important.

I did Japanese jujitsu when I was a kid, but there was little sparring (at least at that dojo).

This is why I usually stay out of arguments on the Internet. None of your "points" counter my point. They're completely unrelated. I've heard/seen the story of the old lady before. He wasn't in the "mount" position discussed here and punching her in the face. He was getting her legs apart. Nor did I say being mounted is a death sentence. No one did. The point is that the person on the bottom should be controlling and or sweeping the person on the top, not striking back. Most of the power from a strike, which I'm sure you're aware of, comes from the core and not from the arms. When a person is mounted and flattened out on their back then they have essentially negligible strength to be striking back. To top this all off, what if the person on top is actually a woman? Let's see how far a groin strike will get you. Growing up in the Midwest and now living in Hawaii, I can tell you there's plenty of big women who can over power men.

Well for one of you were a kid that can explain it, not many places want kids beating on eachother. Normally the heavier sparring is reserved for adults.

And yes we hawaiian/Pacific islander people can be pretty big. We didn't have ladders back then so our ancestors just punched the trees over (flex)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think practicing it live - and sparring a lot - is important.

I did Japanese jujitsu when I was a kid, but there was little sparring (at least at that dojo).

I have seen that in schools, which is one of the consistent advantages of Judo: typically lots of sparring.

 

[drop bear]

I think practicing it live - and sparring a lot - is important.

I did Japanese jujitsu when I was a kid, but there was little sparring (at least at that dojo).

Two types judo based and akido based.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Two types judo based and akido based.

It was more wrist locks and holds and elbow breaking techniques - all done very slowly.

I didn't learn much.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks man!

Can you explain - specifically - how you would protect your groin from the guard or mount? I'm very curious.

Sure, I can go over some of the basics...

Low mount - my entire groin is in no way exposed or reachable. It's glued to your belly with no exposed surfaces and my hips driving all the weight of my body through you.

High mount - the most sensitive portion of my groin (my testicles) are sandwiched between my body and yours and not reachable with a direct strike. You could possibly manage an awkward strike with relatively little power to the front of my crotch area. To deal with this I have a few options. I can control your arms and use the fact that you are out of good position to break your arm or choke you out. Alternately I can pay back your awkward shots with full power shots that have the whole weight of my body behind them to bounce your head off the concrete until you go unconscious. There are other possibilities as well, but they would be easier to demonstrate than explain.

Guard - if I have done my job correctly and broken down your posture, then there is no striking path to my groin. Furthermore I probably have control of your arms. If I am not able to break down your posture or control your arms, then I am not staying in closed guard. I'm moving to an open guard where I can control the distance to protect against your strikes (whether they are to the groin or elsewhere). BTW - there are ways to potentially attack someone's groin from within their guard - but you need the skill to shut down their guard offense and defenses first. That's not too hard against an untrained person, but a lot harder against someone who actually knows how to use the guard well.

Nope. Did BJJ for a year. I know, I know - a year is nothing.

I was not impressed with it, although it works fabulously well in an octagon with rules. Rules, gentlemen.

I'm curious - did you ever ask your instructor to show you how to deal with someone trying to attack your groin from within your guard or under your mount? Of did you just make assumptions?

Mount me and I will elbow you in the groin. j/k. ; )

2nd elbow? Doubt it. Sorry. = /

And it Krav they don't grab your testicles. They aim the point of their elbows (olecranon) towards their mounted opponent to protect their face, since that essentially puts your head into a protective "cage." What follows are short but powerful strikes to the groin of the mounted opponent to either prepare for a sweep or discourage the mounted opponent from attacking you.

Have you ever tested this against experienced ground fighters?

There are no absolutes in self defense.

Completely correct. Just about any crazy technique you could think of that really shouldn't work has probably been successful at some point in the history of fighting. Probably more than once. That doesn't mean it should be your go-to move. Probably most of us would agree that throwing punches with your eyes closed is a suboptimal approach. Nevertheless I'm quite certain that there have been a number of guys over the years who have swung blindly in a fight and landed a lucky shot which knocked their opponent out. I'm still not going to recommend that approach to my students.

Being mounted is not a death sentence. It isn't an autokill for the person on top. And it doesn't mean that the person on the bottom gives up without exploiting any/every means of disabling the attacker and regaining their feet.

Absolutely! But there are some approaches for escaping bottom of mount which have a much higher likelihood of success than others.

I someone is raining nut jabs on your boys, wouldn't you jump off?

Nope. Jumping off would actually make it easier for him to land cleaner shots on my groin. I'll make him pay for the jabs by knocking him out, choking him out, or breaking some limbs. Also as I mentioned before, the nuts are not actually exposed. Front of the crotch is best you can do.

However, what would your 'more proven' methods be like? And, how are you rating them as 'more proven'?

Controlling distance and the opponent's posture to limit his ability to strike first, then there are a variety of ways to improve the position. Since we're on the subject of "non-sport" methods ... there are ways you can sometimes use biting to supplement an escape - but only once you've shut down your opponent's strikes. Even then it's a supplement to the escape, not something to rely on by itself. I can think of one escape you might be able to supplement with a groin strike, but only once you're already 75% of the way through to a successful escape. Attacking the eyes or throat ... I'm not going to say it could never work, but I will say it actually has a higher chance of making your situation worse than of making it better.

As far as how I'm rating them as more "proven?" Decades of personal experience training escapes from the bottom of mount coupled with talking with people who have many more decades of experience and watching every bit of footage I can of people fighting in that position, both in sport and in the street.

What is the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom uses his knife (or improvised edged weapon) to slash or stab him?

Quite likely get seriously injured or killed. That's a serious risk fighting unarmed against a knife in any position, standing or on the ground - especially if you aren't aware the knife is present. If the top guy was aware of the knife, then he certainly shouldn't be sitting there throwing punches. He should be trying to control the knife arm.

Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom decides not to lay there (like the guy in the video) and arches up which unbalances the guy on top and he smashes his head into the parked car right next to them?

That guy in that position? He's going to keep doing what he's doing. Bridging to unbalance the guy on top is a standard defense both in and out of the cage. The guy on bottom knows that and would do it if he could. He's not laying there because he doesn't know any better. Unfortunately the guy on top has already successfully shut down that defense.

Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom reaches up and grabs one of his arms and takes a bite out of it to the bone?

Not going to be very easy to do at that moment in time, because it's hard to get that degree of control on arms that are raining down punches. Nevertheless, there are other potential moments on the bottom of the mount where you might be able to get control of an arm and take a chomp, so let's consider the possibilities from one of those moments.

If the top guy is a pure sportsman in a friendly competition, he might scream bloody murder and call for the ref.

If the top guy is a bully establishing dominance who wasn't expecting things to escalate that far, he might try to rip his arm free and jump off.

If the guy is a tough minded vicious fighter who knows what he's doing, he might use his weight to jam his arm deeper into your mouth (which seriously limits your ability to bite down and may even damage your jaw), then use his free hand to gouge your eyes while you are stuck there unable to move your head out of the way.

As I mentioned above, there are ways to use biting in escapes. My recommendation is to protect yourself first, then use the bites as added fuel for a technically sound escape. Don't rely on the bite as a substitute for a technical escape.

Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom does pretty much a bunch of different stuff that the guy in your video isn't allowed to do?

List some of that different stuff and I'll let you know if I have an answer. If not, I'll go do some experimentation and get back to you.

How is he going to reach for his knife when the guy on top is hitting him in the face?

I wouldn't rely on those punches to prevent the guy on bottom from reaching his knife. Maybe he'll be to distracted or fearful to reach for it. Maybe he'll get knocked out before he reaches the knife. If I were the guy on top I wouldn't bet my life on either of those possibilities.

Yep. Straight jab into the nuts brother.

Let's see about that ground and pound after a coupla nut shots.

See my comments above regarding the position of the testicles. Still, there's no point in relying on theory or my word. If you're ever in the area come by and we can run a series of controlled experiments.

Have you ever been hit in the nuts? Remember what that felt like? Really stop for a second and think about it.

Yep. I've got a reasonably clear notion of what it's like.

The only rules in the beginning were no biting and no eye-gouging.

Actually, biting and eye-gouging weren't exactly forbidden. They just were supposed to result in being fined part of your purse. There's actually a decent chance that biting or eye-gouging in a street fight might result in more costly financial penalties than doing the same in UFC 1. Gerard Gordeau did try to bite Royce Gracie in UFC 1 and got choked in payback. Two years later he fought Yuki Nakai in Vale Tudo Japan and eye gouged him badly enough so that Nakai was permanently blinded in one eye, even though eye gouging was against the rules. Nakai still won the fight after being eye gouged. (He also went on to win his next fight in the tournament that same night.) Gordeau is a sociopath who really should have gone to prison for that piece of nastiness, but Nakai didn't want to generate bad publicity for the sport of MMA so no charges were brought.

"Judo guys and bjj guys and many martial artists are taught to protect their groin, don't do what it is going to expected."

I want you to please tell me where you train then so I can join. My Gracie Barra gym was terrible.

I train and teach at 4 Seasons MMA in Lexington, KY. If you come to my classes I will teach you how to protect your groin. My instructor can also show you that if you ask him. Some of my fellow instructors are more oriented towards sport competition, so you may not get that material in their classes.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Sure, I can go over some of the basics...

Low mount - my entire groin is in no way exposed or reachable. It's glued to your belly with no exposed surfaces and my hips driving all the weight of my body through you.

High mount - the most sensitive portion of my groin (my testicles) are sandwiched between my body and yours and not reachable with a direct strike. You could possibly manage an awkward strike with relatively little power to the front of my crotch area. To deal with this I have a few options. I can control your arms and use the fact that you are out of good position to break your arm or choke you out. Alternately I can pay back your awkward shots with full power shots that have the whole weight of my body behind them to bounce your head off the concrete until you go unconscious. There are other possibilities as well, but they would be easier to demonstrate than explain.

Guard - if I have done my job correctly and broken down your posture, then there is no striking path to my groin. Furthermore I probably have control of your arms. If I am not able to break down your posture or control your arms, then I am not staying in closed guard. I'm moving to an open guard where I can control the distance to protect against your strikes (whether they are to the groin or elsewhere). BTW - there are ways to potentially attack someone's groin from within their guard - but you need the skill to shut down their guard offense and defenses first. That's not too hard against an untrained person, but a lot harder against someone who actually knows how to use the guard well.



I'm curious - did you ever ask your instructor to show you how to deal with someone trying to attack your groin from within your guard or under your mount? Of did you just make assumptions?





Have you ever tested this against experienced ground fighters?



Completely correct. Just about any crazy technique you could think of that really shouldn't work has probably been successful at some point in the history of fighting. Probably more than once. That doesn't mean it should be your go-to move. Probably most of us would agree that throwing punches with your eyes closed is a suboptimal approach. Nevertheless I'm quite certain that there have been a number of guys over the years who have swung blindly in a fight and landed a lucky shot which knocked their opponent out. I'm still not going to recommend that approach to my students.



Absolutely! But there are some approaches for escaping bottom of mount which have a much higher likelihood of success than others.



Nope. Jumping off would actually make it easier for him to land cleaner shots on my groin. I'll make him pay for the jabs by knocking him out, choking him out, or breaking some limbs. Also as I mentioned before, the nuts are not actually exposed. Front of the crotch is best you can do.



Controlling distance and the opponent's posture to limit his ability to strike first, then there are a variety of ways to improve the position. Since we're on the subject of "non-sport" methods ... there are ways you can sometimes use biting to supplement an escape - but only once you've shut down your opponent's strikes. Even then it's a supplement to the escape, not something to rely on by itself. I can think of one escape you might be able to supplement with a groin strike, but only once you're already 75% of the way through to a successful escape. Attacking the eyes or throat ... I'm not going to say it could never work, but I will say it actually has a higher chance of making your situation worse than of making it better.

As far as how I'm rating them as more "proven?" Decades of personal experience training escapes from the bottom of mount coupled with talking with people who have many more decades of experience and watching every bit of footage I can of people fighting in that position, both in sport and in the street.



Quite likely get seriously injured or killed. That's a serious risk fighting unarmed against a knife in any position, standing or on the ground - especially if you aren't aware the knife is present. If the top guy was aware of the knife, then he certainly shouldn't be sitting there throwing punches. He should be trying to control the knife arm.



That guy in that position? He's going to keep doing what he's doing. Bridging to unbalance the guy on top is a standard defense both in and out of the cage. The guy on bottom knows that and would do it if he could. He's not laying there because he doesn't know any better. Unfortunately the guy on top has already successfully shut down that defense.



Not going to be very easy to do at that moment in time, because it's hard to get that degree of control on arms that are raining down punches. Nevertheless, there are other potential moments on the bottom of the mount where you might be able to get control of an arm and take a chomp, so let's consider the possibilities from one of those moments.

If the top guy is a pure sportsman in a friendly competition, he might scream bloody murder and call for the ref.

If the top guy is a bully establishing dominance who wasn't expecting things to escalate that far, he might try to rip his arm free and jump off.

If the guy is a tough minded vicious fighter who knows what he's doing, he might use his weight to jam his arm deeper into your mouth (which seriously limits your ability to bite down and may even damage your jaw), then use his free hand to gouge your eyes while you are stuck there unable to move your head out of the way.

As I mentioned above, there are ways to use biting in escapes. My recommendation is to protect yourself first, then use the bites as added fuel for a technically sound escape. Don't rely on the bite as a substitute for a technical escape.



List some of that different stuff and I'll let you know if I have an answer. If not, I'll go do some experimentation and get back to you.



I wouldn't rely on those punches to prevent the guy on bottom from reaching his knife. Maybe he'll be to distracted or fearful to reach for it. Maybe he'll get knocked out before he reaches the knife. If I were the guy on top I wouldn't bet my life on either of those possibilities.



See my comments above regarding the position of the testicles. Still, there's no point in relying on theory or my word. If you're ever in the area come by and we can run a series of controlled experiments.



Yep. I've got a reasonably clear notion of what it's like.



Actually, biting and eye-gouging weren't exactly forbidden. They just were supposed to result in being fined part of your purse. There's actually a decent chance that biting or eye-gouging in a street fight might result in more costly financial penalties than doing the same in UFC 1. Gerard Gordeau did try to bite Royce Gracie in UFC 1 and got choked in payback. Two years later he fought Yuki Nakai in Vale Tudo Japan and eye gouged him badly enough so that Nakai was permanently blinded in one eye, even though eye gouging was against the rules. Nakai still won the fight after being eye gouged. (He also went on to win his next fight in the tournament that same night.) Gordeau is a sociopath who really should have gone to prison for that piece of nastiness, but Nakai didn't want to generate bad publicity for the sport of MMA so no charges were brought.



I train and teach at 4 Seasons MMA in Lexington, KY. If you come to my classes I will teach you how to protect your groin. My instructor can also show you that if you ask him. Some of my fellow instructors are more oriented towards sport competition, so you may not get that material in their classes.

Man - your post is so good. I am tempted to fly to KY.

 

[drop bear]

Not going to be very easy to do at that moment in time, because it's hard to get that degree of control on arms that are raining down punches. Nevertheless, there are other potential moments on the bottom of the mount where you might be able to get control of an arm and take a chomp, so let's consider the possibilities from one of those moments.

I had that happen while i transitioned from half guard to mount on a guy.

I nose gouged him and he let go.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Man - your post is so good. I am tempted to fly to KY.

Where do you live? There may somebody in your area who takes the same sort of approach I do. There are an increasing number of BJJ practitioners these days who only care about sport competition, but there are also plenty who still treat it as a martial art. (There are also those who train both aspects and know what needs to be adjusted for using the art in different contexts.)

 

[Juany118]

BJJ and JJ is good for self defense but keep in mind that this is not ideal for many street situations. If you are in a bar do you want to take the attacker to the floor? That handles him but what about the guys girlfriend and his two other friends?

I guarantee you they are going to be hitting you while you have the other guy on the floor or any sort of hold. The style is great at one on one vs someone who has minimal or no grappling experience, if they know good escapes and have a history of a grappling art than you could be in serious trouble if you are not excellent at it.

This is something was too many people don't do when selecting a Martial Art for real world applications, you need to consider the tactical considerations. Not only what you note but also with environmental concerns. I work with one guy who is an AWESOME wrestler, all State in High School, very successful in college as well. He still keeps up and coaches at a local High School. He also has given himself 2 concussions because he has gone pure muscle memory with take downs and concrete =/= the mat. Heck I almost did it myself one night. I went to do an Aikido takedown, I had forgotten about the plate glass sliding door at the ER entrance, I almost launched the suspect into it. If I hadn't suddenly bailed on the maneuver and yanked him off line...well at least we were already in the ER lol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I train and teach at 4 Seasons MMA in Lexington, KY. If you come to my classes I will teach you how to protect your groin. My instructor can also show you that if you ask him. Some of my fellow instructors are more oriented towards sport competition, so you may not get that material in their classes.

Crap. I was in Lexington about 10 days ago. I'll have to remember you're there, Tony - a client of mine sends me out there once or twice a year, and I could easily build in an extra night so I could stop by and visit 4 Seasons.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Crap. I was in Lexington about 10 days ago. I'll have to remember you're there, Tony - a client of mine sends me out there once or twice a year, and I could easily build in an extra night so I could stop by and visit 4 Seasons.

Cool! Let me know when you come through so I can make sure I'm there that night.