Judo For Self-Defense On The Street?

[Charlemagne]

I like this combination of Roy Dean's.....

Interesting. I'd be interested in seeing that done a bit more dynamically and against a resisting opponent. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but it is hard to get a feel for things when they are presented that way. I get that it was a demo, so this is not a slam.

 

[Paul_D]

Interesting. I'd be interested in seeing that done a bit more dynamically and against a resisting opponent. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but it is hard to get a feel for things when they are presented that way.

The flip side of that is why would you continue to try and make it work if he's resisitng, just switch to a techqniue that with works in the direction of the force he is using to resist.

 

[Charlemagne]

The flip side of that is why would you continue to try and make it work if he's resisitng, just switch to a techqniue that with works in the direction of the force he is using to resist.

By resisting opponent, I was intending someone that is not compliant, not one who is resisting that specific movement. Since that video seemed to be a demo, the person that Roy Dean was working with was just going along for the ride and allowing him to do whatever he wanted. He even landed in the proper position for him and stayed there. Again, it's a demo, so I get why they were doing things that way, but I would like to see the same techniques done in a live sparring (aka, against a resisting opponent) manner.

 

[Spinedoc]

By resisting opponent, I was intending someone that is not compliant, not one who is resisting that specific movement. Since that video seemed to be a demo, the person that Roy Dean was working with was just going along for the ride and allowing him to do whatever he wanted. He even landed in the proper position for him and stayed there. Again, it's a demo, so I get why they were doing things that way, but I would like to see the same techniques done in a live sparring (aka, against a resisting opponent) manner.

Shihonage (four corner throw) is actually a fairly dangerous technique. It's probably the technique that has injured more aikido students than any other. There are actually reported deaths from it in Japan. Apparently a couple of times, younger students at University got into it so much that they were throwing uke so hard that they suffered head injuries and broken necks. A few people died. I've known several people here who injured their shoulders pretty bad.

I was showing some of my BJJ classmates a version of shihonage koshinage that I like, and one of them asked about resistance, I simply said, okay, let's look at that, and then I showed them every place I could simply break the arm if someone really wanted to fight it, the point being that, once I get the arm extended into shihonage, you've already lost at that point, kind of like when someone locks in a kimura, and you probably want to fall as gently as possible out of the shihonage if you want to continue to fight. Now, resisting getting into shihonage is an entirely different manner, and one of the reasons we practice henka waza a fair amount, for myself, I'd probably do an udekimenage, or simply reverse into a sankyo or other movement. LOL....as my Shidoin says......"Always another way".....before he slams my butt.

 

[Charlemagne]

Shihonage (four corner throw) is actually a fairly dangerous technique. It's probably the technique that has injured more aikido students than any other. There are actually reported deaths from it in Japan. Apparently a couple of times, younger students at University got into it so much that they were throwing uke so hard that they suffered head injuries and broken necks. A few people died. I've known several people here who injured their shoulders pretty bad.

I was showing some of my BJJ classmates a version of shihonage koshinage that I like, and one of them asked about resistance, I simply said, okay, let's look at that, and then I showed them every place I could simply break the arm if someone really wanted to fight it, the point being that, once I get the arm extended into shihonage, you've already lost at that point, kind of like when someone locks in a kimura, and you probably want to fall as gently as possible out of the shihonage if you want to continue to fight. Now, resisting getting into shihonage is an entirely different manner, and one of the reasons we practice henka waza a fair amount, for myself, I'd probably do an udekimenage, or simply reverse into a sankyo or other movement. LOL....as my Shidoin says......"Always another way".....before he slams my butt.

Perhaps I am remembering things incorrectly, but when I trained a Japanese JJ back in the day (long time ago and not for very long) I seem to remember doing that a bit more dynamically. Perhaps I am mistaken. I recognize that not everything is going to be able to be done full speed all the time. However, for obvious reasons, I do get a bit antsy when I hear that something is too dangerous for going full speed. I'm not an Aikido expert by any means, so perhaps it can be pulled off live. Do you have any thoughts on that?

 

[Spinedoc]

Perhaps I am remembering things incorrectly, but when I trained a Japanese JJ back in the day (long time ago and not for very long) I seem to remember doing that a bit more dynamically. Perhaps I am mistaken. I recognize that not everything is going to be able to be done full speed all the time. However, for obvious reasons, I do get a bit antsy when I hear that something is too dangerous for going full speed. I'm not an Aikido expert by any means, so perhaps it can be pulled off live. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Oh sorry, that's not what I was saying.... no, you can go full speed, but my point was that when someone has you in full extended shihonage, you really don't want to resist. The ukemi gets more challenging at speed, but if you watch this video, Tissier Shihan does it at slow speeds first, but then at higher speeds, watch uke spin when he locks in the shihonage, and extends the arm, if uke resists, he only has to bring the arm down over his shoulder to break the elbow...at that point, the best option for uke is to take the fall and hopefully be able to get up to try another attack....

 

[drop bear]

Perhaps I am remembering things incorrectly, but when I trained a Japanese JJ back in the day (long time ago and not for very long) I seem to remember doing that a bit more dynamically. Perhaps I am mistaken. I recognize that not everything is going to be able to be done full speed all the time. However, for obvious reasons, I do get a bit antsy when I hear that something is too dangerous for going full speed. I'm not an Aikido expert by any means, so perhaps it can be pulled off live. Do you have any thoughts on that?

If you looked long and hard enough you could probably find it in akijitsu.

Actually he had a hack at it at about the 5:12 mark.

 

[Charlemagne]

Actually he had a hack at it at about the 5:12 mark.

OK, so I chuckled at that one.

 

[Paul_D]

Again, it's a demo, so I get why they were doing things that way, but I would like to see the same techniques done in a live sparring (aka, against a resisting opponent) manner.

I'm not sure why you would want to see it in sparring, as sparring has nothing to do with self defence, whch is what the thread is about.

Bear in mind in SD you wouldn't just attempt this (or any other techqniue) you would strike pre-emptively, and depending on how they fall/stagger/end up, you would apply a technique that was relevent if it presented itself to you.

I'm not sure there would be much resitence 'in the street' after a pre-emptive strike.

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm not sure why you would want to see it in sparrign, as sparring has nothing to do with self defnce, whch is what teh thrad si about.

Bear in mind in SD you wouldn't just attempt this (or any other techqniue) you would strike pre-emptively, and depending on how they fall/stagger/end up, you would apply a technique that was relevent if it presented itself to you.

I'm not sure there would be much resitence 'in the street' after a pre-emptive strike.

Didn't someone in bjj says the majority of it isn't uses in self defense?

 

[Paul_D]

Didn't someone in bjj says the majority of it isn't uses in self defense?

The majority of what?

 

[lklawson]

Shihonage (four corner throw) is actually a fairly dangerous technique. It's probably the technique that has injured more aikido students than any other. There are actually reported deaths from it in Japan. Apparently a couple of times, younger students at University got into it so much that they were throwing uke so hard that they suffered head injuries and broken necks. A few people died. I've known several people here who injured their shoulders pretty bad.

Death from Shihonage? How, seriously borking the escape ukemi and landing on their own head? That's the best I've got. Shihonage is designed to hyperextend or dislocate the shoulder joint (depending on which version, of course), but the only way I can see death is due to a depressed skull fracture from a screwed up ukemi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Spinedoc]

Death from Shihonage? How, seriously borking the escape ukemi and landing on their own head? That's the best I've got. Shihonage is designed to hyperextend or dislocate the shoulder joint (depending on which version, of course), but the only way I can see death is due to a depressed skull fracture from a screwed up ukemi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That's pretty much what apparently happened. It's the only technique that I am aware of in Aikido practice that has actually killed someone. I've never seen it, but there have been anecdotal reports.

Aikido and Injuries by Stanley Pranin

 

[Charlemagne]

I'm not sure why you would want to see it in sparring, as sparring has nothing to do with self defence, whch is what the thread is about.

I could not disagree more. Sparring is not the end-all, be-all, but it is an essential component of training. If you never validate your system with someone who is trying to prevent you from doing the things you want to do, I believe you are setting yourself up for failure in the event that you actually have to use it in the real world.

Bear in mind in SD you wouldn't just attempt this (or any other techqniue) you would strike pre-emptively, and depending on how they fall/stagger/end up, you would apply a technique that was relevent if it presented itself to you.

I agree with that completely.

I'm not sure there would be much resitence 'in the street' after a pre-emptive strike.

Unless of course your strike isn't near as good as you think it is, you miss your intended target, etc.

 

[drop bear]

Death from Shihonage? How, seriously borking the escape ukemi and landing on their own head? That's the best I've got. Shihonage is designed to hyperextend or dislocate the shoulder joint (depending on which version, of course), but the only way I can see death is due to a depressed skull fracture from a screwed up ukemi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

If you launched someone with a hip throw into spikes or something.

 

[Ironbear24]

If you launched someone with a hip throw into spikes or something.

Don't forget to shout fatality afterward and strike a cool pose.